Aircraft down in Canley Vale
A couple of points from an old aviator;
1) Yes, I certainly would have CONSIDERED going into Richmond. I would even consider a full ILS to touchdown. Any pilot who has not practiced an ILS in the sim (or even your home PC) to touchdown in zero viz is not fair dinkum. It is so easy to reduce your ROD at the appropriate height. It's not hard. Try it. You will surprise yourself.
Hey, You have acres and acres of FLAT ground on and around the runway.
2) I would have also implemented a drift down procedure as altitude and airspeed are imperative. Stuff the ducking under the steps crap.
3) Nobody has mentioned the infamous phrase "COMMERCIAL PRESSURE".
I can imagine that this pilot would have been hearing the words of DS saying, that he has cost the company $xxxx by landing at Richmond.
This is a very real scenario.
4) This guy tried REALLY HARD. Unfortunately, I think he may have lacked the experience necessary to make alternative decisions.
1) Yes, I certainly would have CONSIDERED going into Richmond. I would even consider a full ILS to touchdown. Any pilot who has not practiced an ILS in the sim (or even your home PC) to touchdown in zero viz is not fair dinkum. It is so easy to reduce your ROD at the appropriate height. It's not hard. Try it. You will surprise yourself.
Hey, You have acres and acres of FLAT ground on and around the runway.
2) I would have also implemented a drift down procedure as altitude and airspeed are imperative. Stuff the ducking under the steps crap.
3) Nobody has mentioned the infamous phrase "COMMERCIAL PRESSURE".
I can imagine that this pilot would have been hearing the words of DS saying, that he has cost the company $xxxx by landing at Richmond.
This is a very real scenario.
4) This guy tried REALLY HARD. Unfortunately, I think he may have lacked the experience necessary to make alternative decisions.
Sadly in GA the training and procedures that the airline boys have just ain't there - when GA pilots have to deal with an engine failure - they have a better chance of it happening than on an airliner - have less performance - have to do it by themselves - and may not have practised for it for 11 months, and then not in that model or even type of aircraft. IF a pilot is to make a mistake in these circumstances - one has to ask as a 'fallible' human being - is it asking too much to expect someone to perform perfectly - when we have had so little ongoing training to deal with it - when the margins for performance are just so thin ?
Big difference between doing an initial twin in something like a light good condition low time BE58 that goes fine on 1 - do a quick endorsement on a PA31 - do your renewal on a BE58 again - then having an engine failure for real 3 years later on a heavy PA31-350P with 2 tired engines, bad paint and old props ! Imagine in an airline being endorsed on the 737 and 767 - but doing your renewal and engine failures during sim sessions on the 767 but flying the line on the 737 ?
Throw in commercial pressure as dogcharlietree of the boss going off at you because you didn't do what he might have done and you have one situation I wouldn't have wanted to be in !
Big difference between doing an initial twin in something like a light good condition low time BE58 that goes fine on 1 - do a quick endorsement on a PA31 - do your renewal on a BE58 again - then having an engine failure for real 3 years later on a heavy PA31-350P with 2 tired engines, bad paint and old props ! Imagine in an airline being endorsed on the 737 and 767 - but doing your renewal and engine failures during sim sessions on the 767 but flying the line on the 737 ?
Throw in commercial pressure as dogcharlietree of the boss going off at you because you didn't do what he might have done and you have one situation I wouldn't have wanted to be in !
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I see mention here about fuel contamination and JetA1.
In the days of real aviation safety publications (the ASD) there was an article regarding the refueling confusion with JetA1 of an aircraft with "Turbo" decals on the engine cowls. It seems as though the refueller saw Turbo and thought Turbine and delivered the wrong fuel.
I believe fuel nozzles and refuelling ports were 're-engineered' so that only the correct nozzle would go into the fuel tank.
tipsy
In the days of real aviation safety publications (the ASD) there was an article regarding the refueling confusion with JetA1 of an aircraft with "Turbo" decals on the engine cowls. It seems as though the refueller saw Turbo and thought Turbine and delivered the wrong fuel.
I believe fuel nozzles and refuelling ports were 're-engineered' so that only the correct nozzle would go into the fuel tank.
tipsy
Last time I looked an engine failure in a twin requires a diversion to the nearest suitable airport, which may not necessarily be the nearest airport. Item such as an airports infrastructure, weather, navaids/approaches, ATC, the pilot’s familiarity with the airport, etc should all be carefully considered by the pilot in command before determining the suitability of an airport for a diversion.
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Tipsy
That is correct, but I have it first hand from the Caboolture refueller...Yes I am serious, that there are many non standard (illegal?) nozzles around, including the one mentioned in my previous post.
Jet fuel contamination is a long shot, but a very real thing....still to this day.
That is correct, but I have it first hand from the Caboolture refueller...Yes I am serious, that there are many non standard (illegal?) nozzles around, including the one mentioned in my previous post.
Jet fuel contamination is a long shot, but a very real thing....still to this day.
Thread Starter
I don't know how much experience comes into this. It is very much decision making process. Compared to many people on this forum I do not have a lot of Piloting experience, as pre 2005 most of my flying experience was as a mil and civil aircrewman.
I don't wish to critisize the Pilot at all. I wonder whether the aircraft was intentionaly decended to 1500ft at 12 nm or was the aircraft simply unable to maintain altitude even this far out.
This would be something I imagine you would want to find out early so you ca make an immediate decision. Something like; if your aircraft is not maintaining altitude below 5000ft then an immediate landing is the way to go. If it is then stay high and proceed home, decending over the field. This gives you more options if the good engine quits.
It is such a horrible situation. There are many suitable areas to put down in an emergency in NW Sydney: YSRI, M7, Schofields, open areas of land with no powerlines. It is better to have a broken aircraft and no job than to risk dying.
For some of you more experienced PA-31 pilots out there, if you had to put down on a road (other than a motorway) would it be wheels up or down?
I don't wish to critisize the Pilot at all. I wonder whether the aircraft was intentionaly decended to 1500ft at 12 nm or was the aircraft simply unable to maintain altitude even this far out.
This would be something I imagine you would want to find out early so you ca make an immediate decision. Something like; if your aircraft is not maintaining altitude below 5000ft then an immediate landing is the way to go. If it is then stay high and proceed home, decending over the field. This gives you more options if the good engine quits.
It is such a horrible situation. There are many suitable areas to put down in an emergency in NW Sydney: YSRI, M7, Schofields, open areas of land with no powerlines. It is better to have a broken aircraft and no job than to risk dying.
For some of you more experienced PA-31 pilots out there, if you had to put down on a road (other than a motorway) would it be wheels up or down?
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Lots of folk seem to be speculating based on what they have heard on the Bankstown tower tape. The previous 8 minutes on the Syd Center tape provide a little more insight into the developing situation.
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Lots of folk seem to be speculating based on what they have heard on the Bankstown tower tape. The previous 8 minutes on the Syd Center tape provide a little more insight into the developing situation.
For some of you more experienced PA-31 pilots out there, if you had to put down on a road (other than a motorway) would it be wheels up or down?
Would I land a PA-31 on a golf course that I was flying so low over, witnesses could tell if my props were feathered? Darn tootin... BTW - Gear up, idle cut-off, full fine, master off.
I mean no disrespect to Andrew, he's sadly missed. I have little doubt he was heading back to Bankstown because of commercial pressures. Experienced pilot for his age no doubt, but maybe lacking in life experience to know when to tell the boss "I wasn't prepared to risk it" and chance having to find a new job, rather than chance having to make a distant field on one engine.
Last edited by Rojer Wilco; 17th Jun 2010 at 02:33.
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GADRIVR, spot on! Don't forget the friends who knew him well!
He was a great mate to the end, RIP A.W.
He was a great mate to the end, RIP A.W.
But please dont read the thread if it upsets you. This as was the other thread, a very valuable tool for pilots to learn some more airmanship, unfortunately at the cost of a life in this instance, but nonetheless, people more removed than you can learn by listening to honest opinions regarding possible decisions made and results obtained.
In all seriousness, after I lost a friend (pilot) a few years back, I stayed the hell away from Pprune until I was ready to read what people wrote.. Perhaps avoid these discussions until your not hurting so much.
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http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ys...2010-2130Z.mp3 - Starts 22 minutes into the recording
Edited to fix the link
Edited to fix the link
Last edited by Miraz; 17th Jun 2010 at 03:00. Reason: Link wasn't working
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****This is absolutely by no means suggestive of what may have went wrong here,simply adding into a discussion of what can occur,may be contributing to a similar situation and generally good advise......repeat,by no means has absolutely anything to do with this particular occurance****
One post touched on the topic of performance training and ongoing currency so I felt a need to add something that has been bothering me.
When a young pilot does his training there seems to be little ongoing emergency training,if any at all in some cases.
Adding to this there are also authorised testing officers out there,that conduct IFR renewals with NO assymetric checks conducted,a couple of circuits,one approach and she'll be right........I know it is being done so if youre one of those casa delegates then hang your headset up! your task is not to save the young person or his company a few $$ in aircraft time,its to save his life!
Do you care to ask them before making a decision to not risk your own butt how long has it been since they have conducted an EFATO? one in climb or cruise? do you ask if they would feel confident enough to handle that situation without all the other variables thrown in?
Sadly,very sadly, this is occuring and you,as the young pilots, are placed in a very dangerous situation. Its really not enough that you may be only doing these checks one a year,but to then not have done them at all for how long?
I shudder when I hear some of the stories......You have all heard the stories,you have all sat and compared renewals,you know what I am saying......
Please pay respect for the licence you have been given and get your own insurance each year by doing the checks,if the officer isnt willing then go to someone that is.If your employer insists you do it with Jo Blogg then you insist Jo Blogg do his job. This is good insurance for the company,for the industry,for your parents,for your friends,for the passengers and for you!
To get to this level you have worked soooooo hard,you have lived off 2 minute noodles,watched your other non aviation mates buy the latest holden commodore,drank the cheapest beer from cans,ate the dominos pizza on tuesdays,you deserve to get through to the next stage in life,you have earned it......goodluck young aviators!
One post touched on the topic of performance training and ongoing currency so I felt a need to add something that has been bothering me.
When a young pilot does his training there seems to be little ongoing emergency training,if any at all in some cases.
Adding to this there are also authorised testing officers out there,that conduct IFR renewals with NO assymetric checks conducted,a couple of circuits,one approach and she'll be right........I know it is being done so if youre one of those casa delegates then hang your headset up! your task is not to save the young person or his company a few $$ in aircraft time,its to save his life!
Do you care to ask them before making a decision to not risk your own butt how long has it been since they have conducted an EFATO? one in climb or cruise? do you ask if they would feel confident enough to handle that situation without all the other variables thrown in?
Sadly,very sadly, this is occuring and you,as the young pilots, are placed in a very dangerous situation. Its really not enough that you may be only doing these checks one a year,but to then not have done them at all for how long?
I shudder when I hear some of the stories......You have all heard the stories,you have all sat and compared renewals,you know what I am saying......
Please pay respect for the licence you have been given and get your own insurance each year by doing the checks,if the officer isnt willing then go to someone that is.If your employer insists you do it with Jo Blogg then you insist Jo Blogg do his job. This is good insurance for the company,for the industry,for your parents,for your friends,for the passengers and for you!
To get to this level you have worked soooooo hard,you have lived off 2 minute noodles,watched your other non aviation mates buy the latest holden commodore,drank the cheapest beer from cans,ate the dominos pizza on tuesdays,you deserve to get through to the next stage in life,you have earned it......goodluck young aviators!
I'd be surprised if it made it to 7,000ft with JetA in the tanks.
DF.
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I mean no disrespect to Andrew, he's sadly missed. I have little doubt he was heading back to Bankstown because of commercial pressures. Experienced pilot for his age no doubt, but maybe lacking in life experience to know when to tell the boss "I wasn't prepared to risk it" and chance having to find a new job, rather than chance having to make a distant field on one engine.
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It would be good to know if company recurrency training in the Mojave involved asymmetric flight or if another type was used for this purpose.
Unfortunately a lot of GA companies do not have any form of check and training or currency/type training. At most the pilot would have completed an instrument renewal in the last 12 months. If he was a casual pilot he probably had to source this himself and hence may have completed it in a small training twin. This requires little asymmetric flying and is usually conducted halfway through an approach when the aircraft is already on descent and close to the airport.
After the last few turbo prop incidents CASA has clamped down on the use of simulators for asymmetric and ongoing training. I think it is time that this philosophy flowed down into GA. There are many good, inexpensive simulators that can replicate a variety of GA twins on the market.
Most airline C&T scenarios (LOFT) place a large emphasis on the decision making processes. Unfortunately GA training seems to focus on dealing with an emergency and not the subsequent decisions. The CASA requirement to include Threat and Error Management (TEM) has gone part way to help, however, is poorly implemented by instructors. Most briefs and scenario that I have seen discussed at flying schools are based on avoiding a Threat or Error, which is part of the process. They also need to teach pilots how to make appropriate decisions after a Threat or Error has eventuated.
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Yes, more transcript
Would also like to hear the centre frequency.
Couldn't sleep over this in the early hours of the morning, and was looking for the preceeding transcript. Couldn't find dialogue with centre but in the earlier tower tape, an aircraft was held due to.... a Chieftain returning with an "emergency". With what information are people making statements that an emergency wasn't declared?
I have faith that Andrew did his utmost, something doesn't add up, and I hope that information will be found to support this.
Andrew had the strength of character to put life before commercial factors.
Couldn't sleep over this in the early hours of the morning, and was looking for the preceeding transcript. Couldn't find dialogue with centre but in the earlier tower tape, an aircraft was held due to.... a Chieftain returning with an "emergency". With what information are people making statements that an emergency wasn't declared?
I have faith that Andrew did his utmost, something doesn't add up, and I hope that information will be found to support this.
Andrew had the strength of character to put life before commercial factors.
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I've posted the link to the relevant tape, this is a rough transcript.
I've included the time of the first call on the tower frequency so that those who have heard the tower tape have some continuity in the time line.
I've included the time of the first call on the tower frequency so that those who have heard the tower tape have some continuity in the time line.
Syd Center
7:52 - PGW - We're just turning round sir, we've got a few problems here
7:52 - Center - Everything OK?
7:52 - PGW - Not at the moment, we're just turning round to Bankstown thankyou
7:52 - Center - Roger maintain 5000ft, Richmond available if emergency conditions exist
7:52 - PGW - Standby
7:53 - PGW - We've got an engine issue, we've shut one down and returning to Bankstown
7:53 - Center - Roger, track back to Bankstown
7:54 - Center - Will you require any services on your arrival ?
7:54 - PGW - Not sure at the moment, just dealing with it
7:54 - Center - Descend to 2500
7:54 - PGW - 2500
7:55 - Center - Are you able to maintain height, if not Richmond 2 miles south of you at this time
7:55 - PGW - Ah, we're just on descent at this time… (difficult to make out exactly)
7:56 - Center - Bankstown advise services will be in attendance for your arrival
7:56 - PGW - Wondering if we can confirm 11C available?
7:56 - Center - Track Direct for 11C final, 11C available with two knots downwind
7:57 - PGW - Thanks do you have a heading for us?
7:57 - Center - It's a left turn by 10 or 12 degrees
7:57 - PGW - Left 10-12 degrees
7:58 - Center - Continue descent as required, confirm visual
7:58 - PGW - We have visual at the moment
7:58 - Center - Roger, continue descent as required
BSK Tower
8:00 - PGW - 12 miles to run, 1500
7:52 - PGW - We're just turning round sir, we've got a few problems here
7:52 - Center - Everything OK?
7:52 - PGW - Not at the moment, we're just turning round to Bankstown thankyou
7:52 - Center - Roger maintain 5000ft, Richmond available if emergency conditions exist
7:52 - PGW - Standby
7:53 - PGW - We've got an engine issue, we've shut one down and returning to Bankstown
7:53 - Center - Roger, track back to Bankstown
7:54 - Center - Will you require any services on your arrival ?
7:54 - PGW - Not sure at the moment, just dealing with it
7:54 - Center - Descend to 2500
7:54 - PGW - 2500
7:55 - Center - Are you able to maintain height, if not Richmond 2 miles south of you at this time
7:55 - PGW - Ah, we're just on descent at this time… (difficult to make out exactly)
7:56 - Center - Bankstown advise services will be in attendance for your arrival
7:56 - PGW - Wondering if we can confirm 11C available?
7:56 - Center - Track Direct for 11C final, 11C available with two knots downwind
7:57 - PGW - Thanks do you have a heading for us?
7:57 - Center - It's a left turn by 10 or 12 degrees
7:57 - PGW - Left 10-12 degrees
7:58 - Center - Continue descent as required, confirm visual
7:58 - PGW - We have visual at the moment
7:58 - Center - Roger, continue descent as required
BSK Tower
8:00 - PGW - 12 miles to run, 1500
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I think commercial pressure/losing his job would have been the FURTHEST thing from his mind at the time?
The decision to return to Bankstown would normally be a logical/reasonable option (but not discounting Richmond) due to familiarity and expecting the aircraft to have the performance to at least drift down to Bankstown, which normally it should (until maybe subsequent engine troubles on the good engine?)
The decision to return to Bankstown would normally be a logical/reasonable option (but not discounting Richmond) due to familiarity and expecting the aircraft to have the performance to at least drift down to Bankstown, which normally it should (until maybe subsequent engine troubles on the good engine?)
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Didn't the Whyalla Chieftain continue on AND BEGIN the over-water part of the flight on one engine when the "easier" option was to simply turn back which was of shorter distance? (commercial pressure related)
I believe fuel nozzles and refuelling ports were 're-engineered' so that only the correct nozzle would go into the fuel tank.
DF.
That is correct, but I have it first hand from the Caboolture refueller...Yes I am serious, that there are many non standard (illegal?) nozzles around,
DF.