Merged: Norfolk Island ditching
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The westwind was under within 3 minutes and the cabin was probably under well befor this judging by the fact the last guy out had to swim for the surface.
The above example sounds like the captain had time to whip out for lunch and a movie before it sank.
The above example sounds like the captain had time to whip out for lunch and a movie before it sank.
Sprucegoose
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Interestingly there is no mention of what the company fuel policy is with regard to 'remote islands'. Regardless of whether the flight was air work or charter, I would have thought the company ops manual to be more prescriptive than the regulations.
Yes, emotional support!
But would a "patient's partner" have a function on the flight?
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More quality reporting...
'Hero pilot' Dominic James was among first to leave ditched plane | News.com.au
I lol'd at this one...
'Hero pilot' Dominic James was among first to leave ditched plane | News.com.au
No extra fuel was carried in the plane's wing tip tanks despite Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) regulations forcing pilots to carry enough fuel for emergencies.
CASA approved the air operator certificate for the airline, Pel-Air, despite lax observance of fuel rules.
CASA approved the air operator certificate for the airline, Pel-Air, despite lax observance of fuel rules.
The pilot and co-pilot later told investigators they never saw the surface of the sea before ditching around 100km/h.
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Crikey Truth Boy.
It is the preliminary report and we are on a anonomous rumour network. Things happened that night I imagine that were good and bad. To expect apologies from ppruner's is hypocritical. Everyone has an opinion and are entitled to it. No need to get worked up.
It is the preliminary report and we are on a anonomous rumour network. Things happened that night I imagine that were good and bad. To expect apologies from ppruner's is hypocritical. Everyone has an opinion and are entitled to it. No need to get worked up.
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Nah mate. not worked up and im all for a bit of rumour flinging but it got well beyond that from many posters.
My mate said this,i know that, this is what happened,I have a source blah blah blah. This is the stuff that i disagree with and can damage many reputations before the truth comes out.Poor form from some. Not all just some. I guess the low blow attacks will take on a few different directions now. Glad im perfect in everyway and never make a mistake
My mate said this,i know that, this is what happened,I have a source blah blah blah. This is the stuff that i disagree with and can damage many reputations before the truth comes out.Poor form from some. Not all just some. I guess the low blow attacks will take on a few different directions now. Glad im perfect in everyway and never make a mistake
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The end for the ICC?
Mr Michael Hart - the failed ICC no longer works for CASA. Finnished or was terminated at Xmas.
Does anybody know if they are going to keep the office open or does CASA have some other cunning plan to deal with industry malcontents?
Mr Michael Hart - the failed ICC no longer works for CASA. Finnished or was terminated at Xmas.
Does anybody know if they are going to keep the office open or does CASA have some other cunning plan to deal with industry malcontents?
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Hey Frank
Max,
Oh dear. Wait til Frank finds out !!!!
The end for the ICC?
Mr Michael Hart - the failed ICC no longer works for CASA. Finnished or was terminated at Xmas.
Does anybody know if they are going to keep the office open or does CASA have some other cunning plan to deal with industry malcontents?
Mr Michael Hart - the failed ICC no longer works for CASA. Finnished or was terminated at Xmas.
Does anybody know if they are going to keep the office open or does CASA have some other cunning plan to deal with industry malcontents?
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Perhaps I was hasty in shutting up!!
Truth Boy,
It's probably a exercise in futility in trying to defend the crew on this forum (though you are totally correct in doing so) The prelim report is pretty straight forward. Statements such as Scadiecats pretty well much typifies what one could expect from a large amount of the posters here.
I still would like to see the people who insisted on carving up the crew on this forum offer them an apology......but it won't happen
I'd point out that the medical crew involved were quite happy to talk to the TV crews and heaped praise on the pilot for his actions after the ditching when they were all in the water.
I'd point out that the company (irrespective of what one may think of them) backed the crew and their actions from the outset.
I could point out a helluva lot more.....but at this point, there's no need.
Dom and Zoe........well done on handling an awful situation and walking away with your pax safe. The vast majority of people that I and others have spoken to that are involved in the industry and seem to be reasonable people are filled with admiration for you two and have also voiced disgust on what has been posted on this forum in relation to your situation. Heads up, you've more supporters than you could imagine.
I'd ask if anyone has any issue with what I've posted......PM me. Keep it private, be personal if you want, but for Gods sake don't do it in public!
It's probably a exercise in futility in trying to defend the crew on this forum (though you are totally correct in doing so) The prelim report is pretty straight forward. Statements such as Scadiecats pretty well much typifies what one could expect from a large amount of the posters here.
I still would like to see the people who insisted on carving up the crew on this forum offer them an apology......but it won't happen
I'd point out that the medical crew involved were quite happy to talk to the TV crews and heaped praise on the pilot for his actions after the ditching when they were all in the water.
I'd point out that the company (irrespective of what one may think of them) backed the crew and their actions from the outset.
I could point out a helluva lot more.....but at this point, there's no need.
Dom and Zoe........well done on handling an awful situation and walking away with your pax safe. The vast majority of people that I and others have spoken to that are involved in the industry and seem to be reasonable people are filled with admiration for you two and have also voiced disgust on what has been posted on this forum in relation to your situation. Heads up, you've more supporters than you could imagine.
I'd ask if anyone has any issue with what I've posted......PM me. Keep it private, be personal if you want, but for Gods sake don't do it in public!
Not really the core of this thread, but:
For mine, Mainframe has just about nailed it, along with Frank Arouet.
My Oleo is... - mate, you're in denial. That's the nicest way I can say it
CASA took flack over LHR - and as I understand things, they deserved it!! It's not hypocritical at all to say that they:
I would bet that if CASA, and not the ATSB were investigating, none of the issues relating to surveillance of the company would even have been mentioned!
Did they squirm and duck and weave? Yep.
Did they admit any responsibility? Of course not. (The statements made by BB to the press after the accident was some of the most gutless duck-shoving I've ever seen.)
Has anything changed at CASA? No. Of course not.
Oleo, name me one Aviation company that does it TIME and TIME and TIME again, and is STILL IN BUSINESS!!
CR
For mine, Mainframe has just about nailed it, along with Frank Arouet.
My Oleo is... - mate, you're in denial. That's the nicest way I can say it
CASA took flack over LHR - and as I understand things, they deserved it!! It's not hypocritical at all to say that they:
will quickly take up any regulatory breaches identified except their own
Did they squirm and duck and weave? Yep.
Did they admit any responsibility? Of course not. (The statements made by BB to the press after the accident was some of the most gutless duck-shoving I've ever seen.)
Has anything changed at CASA? No. Of course not.
Sounds like sour grapes to me.I agree with you that the Regulator does make mistakes, but name me one Aviation company that has never made a mistake, employed a nimwit, or made a knee jerk reaction to something in haste ?
Oleo, name me one Aviation company that does it TIME and TIME and TIME again, and is STILL IN BUSINESS!!
CR
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Truth Boy
I understand and repect your right to defend those involved but one must ask the question on how they got into this situation in the first place and that is certainly not hero stuff.
Regards The Dog
I understand and repect your right to defend those involved but one must ask the question on how they got into this situation in the first place and that is certainly not hero stuff.
Regards The Dog
Last edited by Under Dog; 13th Jan 2010 at 20:21.
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The end for the ICC?
does CASA have some other cunning plan to deal with industry malcontents?
They will have to do better because ASIC are catching them as "the biggest loosers".
Watch this space for upcoming dramas of regulatory and enforcement mahem.
Check Attitude
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Thread Drift
My Oleo,
In answer to your question, yes, I am one of many subjected to a CASA vendetta for no obvious reason other than it seems to be a sport with them.
As for the ICC, well I dealt with 5 of them, its a short lived position, Michael Hart was the longest survivor, and none of them came up with the goods.
The ICC is paid by CASA, thus compromising the incumbent and merely leaving the ICC as a source of intelligence on misconduct,
to be used to protect the offenders.
The Skehill report on the NQ TLFO springs to mind.
Bruce Byron, to his credit, cleaned out the rogue element responsible, giving them all golden parachutes, and righted some of the wrongs done.
I had done nothing wrong, just happened to be under the former rogue NQ office at Townsville in its heyday, since almost cleaned up.
Not one CASA officer involved in the criminal misconduct was charged with any offence, they all left quietly through the back door with their benefits intact.
I delayed answering you because I couldn't believe that anyone involved in civil aviation in GA could possibly be so naive.
I also knew that other posters would soon help you see the reality is not the same as the service charter.
Perhaps you came into aviation through the ADF, as some of the misfits did, or maybe came from another country straight into the Oz airline system.
You appear not to have been in GA in Qld, NT, WA and NSW, each of which had their little aberations and unique styles.
If you missed out on that, good for you, you're then entitled to either a blinkered or optimistic view of the regulator.
I would recommend a little background reading of AAT hearings, possibly contact Paul Phelan for a copy of the Phelan Papers, talk to Richard Rudd etc.
You would be distressed to see the depths to which the misfits can sink.
Like you, I would like to believe we have an ethical regulator, and an uncompromised ICC.
Byron was well on track to achieving that, and since his departure, watch some of the misfits creep back into the system.
I must state that there are many more good, professional and ethical CASA staff than there are misfits within CASA.
Bit like the Police force, mostly dedicated professionals doing a great job, and a few who probably dont belong with them.
When a group of them (misfits) are clustered together in the one office the outcome is predictable.
I have benefitted greatly from the professionals, and suffered terribly at the hands of misfits, as have many others.
The Pprune forums proved to be a very effective tool in having the NQ office brought into line, and possibly others as an indirect result.
In answer to your question, yes, I am one of many subjected to a CASA vendetta for no obvious reason other than it seems to be a sport with them.
As for the ICC, well I dealt with 5 of them, its a short lived position, Michael Hart was the longest survivor, and none of them came up with the goods.
The ICC is paid by CASA, thus compromising the incumbent and merely leaving the ICC as a source of intelligence on misconduct,
to be used to protect the offenders.
The Skehill report on the NQ TLFO springs to mind.
Bruce Byron, to his credit, cleaned out the rogue element responsible, giving them all golden parachutes, and righted some of the wrongs done.
I had done nothing wrong, just happened to be under the former rogue NQ office at Townsville in its heyday, since almost cleaned up.
Not one CASA officer involved in the criminal misconduct was charged with any offence, they all left quietly through the back door with their benefits intact.
I delayed answering you because I couldn't believe that anyone involved in civil aviation in GA could possibly be so naive.
I also knew that other posters would soon help you see the reality is not the same as the service charter.
Perhaps you came into aviation through the ADF, as some of the misfits did, or maybe came from another country straight into the Oz airline system.
You appear not to have been in GA in Qld, NT, WA and NSW, each of which had their little aberations and unique styles.
If you missed out on that, good for you, you're then entitled to either a blinkered or optimistic view of the regulator.
I would recommend a little background reading of AAT hearings, possibly contact Paul Phelan for a copy of the Phelan Papers, talk to Richard Rudd etc.
You would be distressed to see the depths to which the misfits can sink.
Like you, I would like to believe we have an ethical regulator, and an uncompromised ICC.
Byron was well on track to achieving that, and since his departure, watch some of the misfits creep back into the system.
I must state that there are many more good, professional and ethical CASA staff than there are misfits within CASA.
Bit like the Police force, mostly dedicated professionals doing a great job, and a few who probably dont belong with them.
When a group of them (misfits) are clustered together in the one office the outcome is predictable.
I have benefitted greatly from the professionals, and suffered terribly at the hands of misfits, as have many others.
The Pprune forums proved to be a very effective tool in having the NQ office brought into line, and possibly others as an indirect result.
Last edited by Mainframe; 13th Jan 2010 at 22:48.
Dom and Zoe........well done on handling an awful situation and walking away with your pax safe. The vast majority of people that I and others have spoken to that are involved in the industry and seem to be reasonable people are filled with admiration for you two and have also voiced disgust on what has been posted on this forum in relation to your situation. Heads up, you've more supporters than you could imagine.
I'd ask if anyone has any issue with what I've posted......PM me. Keep it private, be personal if you want, but for Gods sake don't do it in public!
I'd ask if anyone has any issue with what I've posted......PM me. Keep it private, be personal if you want, but for Gods sake don't do it in public!
I agree, they did handle the situation well from what has been said in the report. However..... Why did they find themselves in this situation in the first place? Especially when there is a CAR that stipulates flights to this island REQUIRE alternate fuel, regardless of the weather!
Putting yourself into this situation because you haven't followed the rules and regs, and plain common sense (would you fly to an aerodrome in the middle of the ocean with no fuel to go anywhere else, regardless of weather?), is not what I would call a hero. They're just lucky that everyone got out alive.
I'll support a pilot who finds themselves in these situations, however not when stupidity is the main cause.
morno
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Mainframe;
It's not thread drift if we pause to discuss perceived views or misdirected loyalty toward those characters central to the matter at hand.
It's not thread drift if we pause to discuss perceived views or misdirected loyalty toward those characters central to the matter at hand.
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Interim Report
Instigating an aeromedical flight is complex, with an abundance of “Third Party” interest (pressure) often culminating in those on board not being fully integrated with the critical (or non critical) nature of the patient condition, operational logistics and the affects of weather.
Each person on board operates to their individual level of competence without knowing the acute complexities of the flight or what specifically each professional individual will be dealing with. In short, those on board may not have a global view of the situation. There are valid reasons for this.
Flight Tasking, Piloting, Medical and Nursing crew can, and often do work for different organizations and have their Individual Contract Service Delivery requirements and expectations.
With all the different agencies involved how does this affect Flight Tasking and Integrated Training, specifically Crew Resource Management, competency based Emergency and Cabin Safety Training.
With all the conjecture about what the pilot may or may not have done or should have done. At the end of the day the decisions made culminated in the aircraft at the bottom of the sea – all on board lucky to have survived. The weather circumstances at Norfolk Island were not out of character or what can be expected.
The five Investigation Activities, page 6 of the interim report are critical – the answers lie there rather than belting the pilot/crew. The real “Hero” will be the person who can dig through the abundance of chaff to get to the facts and instigate change management.
Each person on board operates to their individual level of competence without knowing the acute complexities of the flight or what specifically each professional individual will be dealing with. In short, those on board may not have a global view of the situation. There are valid reasons for this.
Flight Tasking, Piloting, Medical and Nursing crew can, and often do work for different organizations and have their Individual Contract Service Delivery requirements and expectations.
With all the different agencies involved how does this affect Flight Tasking and Integrated Training, specifically Crew Resource Management, competency based Emergency and Cabin Safety Training.
With all the conjecture about what the pilot may or may not have done or should have done. At the end of the day the decisions made culminated in the aircraft at the bottom of the sea – all on board lucky to have survived. The weather circumstances at Norfolk Island were not out of character or what can be expected.
The five Investigation Activities, page 6 of the interim report are critical – the answers lie there rather than belting the pilot/crew. The real “Hero” will be the person who can dig through the abundance of chaff to get to the facts and instigate change management.