Merged: Norfolk Island ditching
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Does anybody know whether or not a Westwind with full tanks would be able to carry the approximate load (6 POB, aeromed gear etc) that this one had?
Am thinking, if you can take the fuel, why not?
Know nothing about the Westwind...
Also, does anyone have any idea of the fuel prices between Apia and NLK? Wondering if kero is cheaper in Apia- if so, would have made more sense to load as much as possible on then rather than taking mins....
The report makes for interesting reading, but the final one should line up all the holes for us.
Maybe CASA will amend the CAOs to (in better phrase than mine) "All flights to remote aerodromes require an alternate." ??????
Am thinking, if you can take the fuel, why not?
Know nothing about the Westwind...
Also, does anyone have any idea of the fuel prices between Apia and NLK? Wondering if kero is cheaper in Apia- if so, would have made more sense to load as much as possible on then rather than taking mins....
The report makes for interesting reading, but the final one should line up all the holes for us.
Maybe CASA will amend the CAOs to (in better phrase than mine) "All flights to remote aerodromes require an alternate." ??????
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Compylot
I pondered long and hard before making my post including reading again and again the report to make sure my comprehension of what was being inferred in the report was correct.
As a professional aviator the passengers safety is our responsibility and ultimately is the Captains. My post was not made by listening to rumour or hearsay but was a direct result of the description of the evacuation from the official report.
I prefaced my post with the words " I really really hope I'm wrong" and that still stands. On reflection the part of my post you have quoted may turn out to be harsh and unjust and if this is proven to be the case nothing would please me more.
My understanding from the report is the Captain entered the cabin and opened the door. Directly from the report it said he then exited the aircraft. The report states liferafts which were available were not deployed and the remaining passengers were left aboard and attended to their own evacuation. There may be valid reason for this but I cannot think of a valid reason. Again I hope I am proven to be wrong and the report is poorly worded or is missing vital information regards the interaction between the Captain his co-pilot and the passsengers.
I pondered long and hard before making my post including reading again and again the report to make sure my comprehension of what was being inferred in the report was correct.
As a professional aviator the passengers safety is our responsibility and ultimately is the Captains. My post was not made by listening to rumour or hearsay but was a direct result of the description of the evacuation from the official report.
I prefaced my post with the words " I really really hope I'm wrong" and that still stands. On reflection the part of my post you have quoted may turn out to be harsh and unjust and if this is proven to be the case nothing would please me more.
My understanding from the report is the Captain entered the cabin and opened the door. Directly from the report it said he then exited the aircraft. The report states liferafts which were available were not deployed and the remaining passengers were left aboard and attended to their own evacuation. There may be valid reason for this but I cannot think of a valid reason. Again I hope I am proven to be wrong and the report is poorly worded or is missing vital information regards the interaction between the Captain his co-pilot and the passsengers.
Last edited by adsyj; 14th Jan 2010 at 21:59. Reason: Change of mind
Sprucegoose
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I have been thinking about this overnight. ..
Now I have never been in a Westwind, but I imagine like most small jets it is very cramped. With the F/O incapacitated the Captain may well have been the only person able to open the door, let's face it emergency exits can be hard to open on dry land in daylight, let alone bobbing in the ocean on a dark night. Once having opened the door perhaps the only option was for the Captain to swim out as he may have been blocking egress for others, where he then assisted from outside the aircraft.
Now I have never been in a Westwind, but I imagine like most small jets it is very cramped. With the F/O incapacitated the Captain may well have been the only person able to open the door, let's face it emergency exits can be hard to open on dry land in daylight, let alone bobbing in the ocean on a dark night. Once having opened the door perhaps the only option was for the Captain to swim out as he may have been blocking egress for others, where he then assisted from outside the aircraft.
Last edited by Howard Hughes; 14th Jan 2010 at 22:22.
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HH...... I started typing a post last night along the same lines but decided better of it, and closed the page, but that may well be an accurate description.
Still beats my why you would leave with out 100% fuel, when by my limited research the a/c probably was not suffering a MTOW issue. The fuel at Apia would look pretty cheap about now!
Still beats my why you would leave with out 100% fuel, when by my limited research the a/c probably was not suffering a MTOW issue. The fuel at Apia would look pretty cheap about now!
While the facts seem to be stacking up against this silly bugger just remember, those in glass houses shan't cast stones.
We've all made a few silly mistakes and been pretty lonely up the front there for a while. Luckily fate smiled on us on those occasions and we are still around to be pointing the bone at this fella. What if fate didn't smile on us on that or those particular days?
What makes Australia such a great place to live and fly also gives us some thought processes which encourage this sort of thing to happen. One of them is our nationally most used phrase - 'she'll be right'
We've all made a few silly mistakes and been pretty lonely up the front there for a while. Luckily fate smiled on us on those occasions and we are still around to be pointing the bone at this fella. What if fate didn't smile on us on that or those particular days?
What makes Australia such a great place to live and fly also gives us some thought processes which encourage this sort of thing to happen. One of them is our nationally most used phrase - 'she'll be right'
Sprucegoose
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Regardless of what else went on, the fuel situation has us all stumped Jabba! 
No prob OWEN, I will post the private message you sent me.
Your attempt at defending yourself because you said IF, has no bearing on the FACT that you are making sweeping statements criticizing how a human being reacted in an extremely horrific, stressful, unpredictable and time critical situation of escaping a rapidly sinking aircraft in the dark!
Are the youth of today so shallow minded that they can't comprehend this?
As for a history of 'sweeping' statements that OWEN makes in regard to cabin evacuations and how we must all hope that such a cool headed hero like OWEN will be in charge should such an even occur,
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/184...ifesavers.html
I think OWEN, the very wise words of advice you were given about your interpretation of an aircraft evacuation back in August 2005 have the same relevance in the context of your latest drivel;
(OzzieO)
and OWENS response;
You obviously know how you would deal with an emergency like this OWEN, what a hero!
I'm sure there is OWEN, however it is quite obvious that you are NOT one of these pilots.
Thanks again OWEN, I don't need to resort to childish outbursts, private messages and name calling, just statements of facts.
****wit
Well, compylot,
READ THE ******* POST I MADE ****WIT.
I didn't make any judgements, and I said IF that's what happened hang your head in shame ****WIT!
Feel free to post this message on the thread involved, I didn't because it will be pulled.
And where have I made judgements on emergency situations?
You are a complete dead**** mate, I post on stuff I know the facts of unlike your good self
Well, compylot,
READ THE ******* POST I MADE ****WIT.
I didn't make any judgements, and I said IF that's what happened hang your head in shame ****WIT!
Feel free to post this message on the thread involved, I didn't because it will be pulled.
And where have I made judgements on emergency situations?
You are a complete dead**** mate, I post on stuff I know the facts of unlike your good self
Are the youth of today so shallow minded that they can't comprehend this?
As for a history of 'sweeping' statements that OWEN makes in regard to cabin evacuations and how we must all hope that such a cool headed hero like OWEN will be in charge should such an even occur,
http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/184...ifesavers.html
I think OWEN, the very wise words of advice you were given about your interpretation of an aircraft evacuation back in August 2005 have the same relevance in the context of your latest drivel;
Until your dealing with it best not to criticize others. Unless you have, you just never know how your going to react.
and OWENS response;
If you don't know how well you will deal with it, you should not be in that position in the first place?
You obviously know how you would deal with an emergency like this OWEN, what a hero!
pick the wheat from the chaff tool, there are quite a few pilots here who've obviously operated to the island.
Thanks again OWEN, I don't need to resort to childish outbursts, private messages and name calling, just statements of facts.
I wouldn't worry Owen, Compylot (is that a shortened way of writing "Computer Pilot"?) is just looking for someone to throw **** on.
This coming from someone who has their age as 19? 
Compylot,
If you think that you would be unable to think logically in the event of an emergency, please don't fly around any of my family. I know one of the first instincts of any human being is their own survival (well it was of this guy anyway, once the aircraft was sinking. Not so sure when he was considering his fuel load), but this guy also had a responsibility to his passengers and fellow crew for their safety and survival. He was, afterall, the "Pilot in Command".
I would like to think that if I were sinking in my aircraft, and I had other people onboard who may not have known where the exits were as well as myself, then I'd take the 30 seconds or so, to ensure they were all directed as best as possible towards the exits. If I didn't, it would be something that dwells on my mind for quite some time if someone died because of my negligence! Passenger briefings are required of course, but I think of them more as directions for if I'm incapacitated. In the event of an emergency, the PIC is still responsible for everyone's safety.
For those who have asked, CAO 82.0 refers to ANYONE flying an aircraft under an AOC. There is then an additional reference for anyone flying an aircraft under an AOC, that is carrying out passenger carrying charter to Norfolk. So regardless of your operation (be it Airwork, Charter, RPT), you must have alternate fuel for Norfolk.
Checkboard does bring up an interesting point though. Why is this requirement not contained on the approach plates for Norfolk, under the Alternate minima's?
morno
Are the youth of today so shallow minded that they can't comprehend this?
Compylot,
If you think that you would be unable to think logically in the event of an emergency, please don't fly around any of my family. I know one of the first instincts of any human being is their own survival (well it was of this guy anyway, once the aircraft was sinking. Not so sure when he was considering his fuel load), but this guy also had a responsibility to his passengers and fellow crew for their safety and survival. He was, afterall, the "Pilot in Command".
I would like to think that if I were sinking in my aircraft, and I had other people onboard who may not have known where the exits were as well as myself, then I'd take the 30 seconds or so, to ensure they were all directed as best as possible towards the exits. If I didn't, it would be something that dwells on my mind for quite some time if someone died because of my negligence! Passenger briefings are required of course, but I think of them more as directions for if I'm incapacitated. In the event of an emergency, the PIC is still responsible for everyone's safety.
For those who have asked, CAO 82.0 refers to ANYONE flying an aircraft under an AOC. There is then an additional reference for anyone flying an aircraft under an AOC, that is carrying out passenger carrying charter to Norfolk. So regardless of your operation (be it Airwork, Charter, RPT), you must have alternate fuel for Norfolk.
Checkboard does bring up an interesting point though. Why is this requirement not contained on the approach plates for Norfolk, under the Alternate minima's?
morno
Bottums Up
Typical of Dunnunda in recent years, we have polarized views and name calling, it seems, because people can't argue a point without calling one anothe names, throwing insults, or posting the content of PMs. 
Don't you know that as soon as you call some one a name, you've basically lost the argument.
Don't you know that as soon as you call some one a name, you've basically lost the argument.
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" How dare you make judgement??!"
If its good for the goose, then surely the gander can as well.
"I'm not really surprised by some of the self absorbed, inward and egotistical holier than thou drivel being posted here, but actually seeing it makes me sick to the core."
Is that not making judgement on previous posts??
There is a lot of statements many people would not agree with on this thread, but does that make it drivel?
Frankly I would say some of the content of your posts is sanctimonious drivel, but I havent because what would that achieve?.
If its good for the goose, then surely the gander can as well.
"I'm not really surprised by some of the self absorbed, inward and egotistical holier than thou drivel being posted here, but actually seeing it makes me sick to the core."
Is that not making judgement on previous posts??
There is a lot of statements many people would not agree with on this thread, but does that make it drivel?
Frankly I would say some of the content of your posts is sanctimonious drivel, but I havent because what would that achieve?.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Typical of Dunnunda in recent years, we have polarized views and name calling, it seems, because people can't argue a point without calling one anothe names, throwing insults, or posting the content of PMs.
Which is why so many possibly informative and interesting threads seem to come to abrupt ends. For the sake of actually learning something I really hope that in this instance this thread will continue.
So, will a few ppruners just calm down a bit please!
Moderator
Typical of Dunnunda in recent years, we have polarized views and name calling, it seems, because people can't argue a point without calling one anothe names, throwing insults, or posting the content of PMs.
*CLICK*
