Gippsland Aero sold to Indian company
It can't be an easy sector to be successful in.
Most of the American GA manufacturers regularly change hands or in and out of bankruptcy, think Mooney and Piper as just a couple.
Most of the American GA manufacturers regularly change hands or in and out of bankruptcy, think Mooney and Piper as just a couple.
Try telling that to Evektor and other European LSA/aircraft manufacturers. Most of their volume is export from their country of origin.
Bloody-minded, arrogant, Australian economics 101!
PS: I see the domestic market for iron ore and LNG is significant to support local development of these technologies - NOT!
Andy RR you must be a pilot! Comparing the export of LNG, coal and iron ore to building aircraft....
There are some successes in ultralight type aircraft here. Why because of the product [being good - what the customers want!] and export into huge markets. Fully certified aircraft/helicopters are another thing indeed.
PS: Have you put your money where your mouth is and bought an Oz made aircraft?
There are some successes in ultralight type aircraft here. Why because of the product [being good - what the customers want!] and export into huge markets. Fully certified aircraft/helicopters are another thing indeed.
PS: Have you put your money where your mouth is and bought an Oz made aircraft?
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TBM, Andy makes a very good point. Place called Brazil who manufacture Embraer, outstanding success and very little in the way of a home market. Don't fly VB or you might be flying on one of their products.
The Brasilians created an industry from a strong subsidised home base. The first aircraft made were licenced built Piper models which were 'evolved' into the Bandit etc which was ordered in large numbers by Brasian Air Force etc to meet their domestic demands given that private type GA did not really exist there. The government then, of course, subsidised the following models. Bit a a small version of Airbus in South America.
Agree that government will is important.
I did not say it could not be done but rather aircraft must be designed and built that have a real customer demand. The Nomad eg did not...
Agree that government will is important.
I did not say it could not be done but rather aircraft must be designed and built that have a real customer demand. The Nomad eg did not...
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The kiwis can.
New Zealand has been building aircraft for fifty years. The Fletcher which has developed into the Pac 750 has been manufactured in Hamilton since the fifties, and the Victa/CT4 was another. It can be done.
Maybe we need more kiwis here.
Maybe we need more kiwis here.
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I thought they had exported most of them here already. Some of them have to stay home and run their country. 
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scale and scales
I'm glad the replies have started shifting back towards economies of scale and away from racist digs.
Drop the scales from your eyes guys!
Mahindra & Mahindra is now (globally) worth about 6 Billion USD, employs about 100k people around the world and covers a range of industries from scooters to IT to real estate to finance. (A side note is that their IT arm is - one of - the Indian companies now said to be in conversation with Westpac about managing their IT etc).
Economies of scale is what is helping Indian cos develop, as the local market is so huge. Basic stuff really. Sell 20 million people something for 20 dollars or sell 1 billion people something for 1 dollar.
One stat that really conveys this scale is that the domestic Indian market adds about 5 million NEW mobile subscribers PER MONTH. And I pay 1 paise per second for my calls here (about AUD 1 cent a minute) .
Yes, India can seem to be chaotic and is certainly a very different place to live and work in, but so is everywhere compared to 'home'.
Comments about "I'd never get in an Indian made..." are slightly, well,
.
Just looking at domestic competitors to M&M: Tata now owns Jag/Land Rover, Bajaj has 35%-ish of Austrian motorcycle maker KTM (and there have been rumours of a buy-out this year), and Mercedes has had an Indian manufacturing plant since 1994. (They currently make the C-class and E-class), etc etc
By all means lament the demise of something, but don't be Luddites, and don't express that luddite-ism through racist attacks. It's embarrassing.
Maybe with the cash and access to (the Indian) market that M&M has, GA is about to embark on a massive expansion. Wouldn't that be good for those engaged with GA?
Drop the scales from your eyes guys!
Mahindra & Mahindra is now (globally) worth about 6 Billion USD, employs about 100k people around the world and covers a range of industries from scooters to IT to real estate to finance. (A side note is that their IT arm is - one of - the Indian companies now said to be in conversation with Westpac about managing their IT etc).
Economies of scale is what is helping Indian cos develop, as the local market is so huge. Basic stuff really. Sell 20 million people something for 20 dollars or sell 1 billion people something for 1 dollar.
One stat that really conveys this scale is that the domestic Indian market adds about 5 million NEW mobile subscribers PER MONTH. And I pay 1 paise per second for my calls here (about AUD 1 cent a minute) .
Yes, India can seem to be chaotic and is certainly a very different place to live and work in, but so is everywhere compared to 'home'.
Comments about "I'd never get in an Indian made..." are slightly, well,
. Just looking at domestic competitors to M&M: Tata now owns Jag/Land Rover, Bajaj has 35%-ish of Austrian motorcycle maker KTM (and there have been rumours of a buy-out this year), and Mercedes has had an Indian manufacturing plant since 1994. (They currently make the C-class and E-class), etc etc
By all means lament the demise of something, but don't be Luddites, and don't express that luddite-ism through racist attacks. It's embarrassing.
Maybe with the cash and access to (the Indian) market that M&M has, GA is about to embark on a massive expansion. Wouldn't that be good for those engaged with GA?
how many CT-4's have they built in 2009???? The PAC 750 is a limited production aircraft. Not sure they employ many people on that project or that is helps the NZ balance of payments..
Still, can't knock them for trying but I don't think PAC business compares with Embraer..
Still, can't knock them for trying but I don't think PAC business compares with Embraer..
TBM - typical Australian response. Always reasons why others have it easier to do stuff. For some reason, Australians are wed to this "level playing field" sense of "fairness" nonsense.
Oh, BTW, my money is going into a start-up company to develop a new technology product. I am hopeful ways can be found to manufacture here, but judging by the can't do attitude of the supplier base so far, it might be following GA to India or elsewhere.
Oh, BTW, my money is going into a start-up company to develop a new technology product. I am hopeful ways can be found to manufacture here, but judging by the can't do attitude of the supplier base so far, it might be following GA to India or elsewhere.
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TBM: You are the only one who has suggested that PAC business does not compare with Embraer, and by association comparing the Brazilian economy with NZ.
In like mind I suggest to you that Embraer does not compare with Boeing or Airbus.
In like mind I suggest to you that Embraer does not compare with Boeing or Airbus.
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This one must be particularly embarrassing to the govt as GA even got a mention in the White Paper (which IMHO is mostly regurgitated backwash after a night out) as a success model. The regulator certainly regulates though seemingly not safe operation but the demise of General Aviation. Maybe their catch phrase should be (actually is in between the lines) 'Clear Skies' not 'Safe Skies'
The secret is to get export firmly into your brain and design and build a product that can be exported.
That means it has to be internationally competitive.
You can manufacture aircraft in Australia, but you have Three barriers to surmount.
1. Other countries protective policies towards their aircraft industries - don't even think of exporting to America unless you are a mature exporter with a well established brand and no American competitors. Even if the overt protectionism embodied in their regulations doesn't get you, the covert grassroots protectionism will get you every time. I could tell a story or Two.
2. The Australian Government policies are not conducive to building viable export industries unless you are into mining, or agriculture. They simply don't care because based on "conventional wisdom" Australia is too small to have the economies of scale to manufacture much unless it is very Australia specific like sheep shearing gear.
Unfortunately the governments "conventional wisdom" is a relic of 1950's thinking as Japanese Kanban systems and modern computer assisted manufacturing has been driving the economic order quantity of everything to one unit.
Gippsland Aviations computer based manufacturing set up provides just such a system with much better accuracy than anything Cessna and Piper could achieve, at least in their piston range, so I wwould be surprised if their direct costs were not competitive.
What isn't competitive is the bloody minded red tape involved in the tax system treatment of export related costs. If you want to export you have to be constantly on an aircraft and in your customers faces. Our Government doesn't understand this.
As for CASA, they don't have a mandate to support let alone facilitate an export oriented aviation industry, in fact they did everything possible to frustrate Gippsland Aviation since day One, if what I was told is correct.
As for Austrade...what a joke. they once set me up for a meeting in Los Angeles with a guy who turned out to want us to make military stuff to circumvent U.S. Government trade sanctions.
3. The finance system here doesn't understand about export or financing aircraft manufacturing. Neither does the Government. That means your cost of funds is going to be higher than your competitors.
There are people and companies that successfully export very high tech Australian manufactured goods, but they are not household names.
That means it has to be internationally competitive.
You can manufacture aircraft in Australia, but you have Three barriers to surmount.
1. Other countries protective policies towards their aircraft industries - don't even think of exporting to America unless you are a mature exporter with a well established brand and no American competitors. Even if the overt protectionism embodied in their regulations doesn't get you, the covert grassroots protectionism will get you every time. I could tell a story or Two.
2. The Australian Government policies are not conducive to building viable export industries unless you are into mining, or agriculture. They simply don't care because based on "conventional wisdom" Australia is too small to have the economies of scale to manufacture much unless it is very Australia specific like sheep shearing gear.
Unfortunately the governments "conventional wisdom" is a relic of 1950's thinking as Japanese Kanban systems and modern computer assisted manufacturing has been driving the economic order quantity of everything to one unit.
Gippsland Aviations computer based manufacturing set up provides just such a system with much better accuracy than anything Cessna and Piper could achieve, at least in their piston range, so I wwould be surprised if their direct costs were not competitive.
What isn't competitive is the bloody minded red tape involved in the tax system treatment of export related costs. If you want to export you have to be constantly on an aircraft and in your customers faces. Our Government doesn't understand this.
As for CASA, they don't have a mandate to support let alone facilitate an export oriented aviation industry, in fact they did everything possible to frustrate Gippsland Aviation since day One, if what I was told is correct.
As for Austrade...what a joke. they once set me up for a meeting in Los Angeles with a guy who turned out to want us to make military stuff to circumvent U.S. Government trade sanctions.
3. The finance system here doesn't understand about export or financing aircraft manufacturing. Neither does the Government. That means your cost of funds is going to be higher than your competitors.
There are people and companies that successfully export very high tech Australian manufactured goods, but they are not household names.
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Sunfish, pretty much on the money, Austrade is a joke and EFIC is likewise totally unsupportive of Australian innovation in manfacture, we used to have a viable electronics manufacturing Industry in Adelaide which is all but decimated today and only really small scale supporting ASG and similar with piece work.
The sanctions in the so called "free trade" agreement "bi lateral bullsh*t" with the U.S. means other than very selective food items that the U.S. has out of season there is no real export to the U.S.
The U.S. uses Australia as trade offsets into Asia as their own dealings with the emerging Asian economies are fragile as opposed to ours which are strong and growing.
The Japan U.S. alliance of convenience is slowly being strangled by overt bureacracy on both sides operating in concert to screw each other like dancing with wolves.
Mahindra is very well respected in India and their principal export market is the Middle East so the Gippsland Developed product should do well and get access to markets denied to Australia.
For Australia it is yet another failure of Government no matter which party is in power the bureacracy kills Australian innovation.
The sanctions in the so called "free trade" agreement "bi lateral bullsh*t" with the U.S. means other than very selective food items that the U.S. has out of season there is no real export to the U.S.
The U.S. uses Australia as trade offsets into Asia as their own dealings with the emerging Asian economies are fragile as opposed to ours which are strong and growing.
The Japan U.S. alliance of convenience is slowly being strangled by overt bureacracy on both sides operating in concert to screw each other like dancing with wolves.
Mahindra is very well respected in India and their principal export market is the Middle East so the Gippsland Developed product should do well and get access to markets denied to Australia.
For Australia it is yet another failure of Government no matter which party is in power the bureacracy kills Australian innovation.
Last edited by Joker 10; 20th Dec 2009 at 16:29. Reason: spelling
re: Cafe Club's Indian love-fest
CafeClub,
I'd like to point out that whilst India has a population of significantly more than a billion (and growing too rapidly) the proportion that actually has any brass (or valuable skills) is very small indeed. Sure, you can sell things for a dollar to lots of people, but 80% of those billion people can't afford to spend a dollar.
I'd estimate that the number of people who have incomes anywhere near western levels is somewhere between 40-80million, so economy-wise, entering the market is like opening up a mid-size European nation, but without the infrastructure and with bureacracy that the Australian guvmint can only dream about (although there's always a way to get things done) An interesting prospect then, but not something to wet your pants over.
Oh, and by way of background, I've done more than my share of time in India, so I've ridden (and driven) an autorickshaw or two. Another thing - they may have cheap engineers, but they are sadly lacking in the real-world experience that comes from living in a developed economy. You will be teaching them stuff every step of the way, so don't expect a lot of innovation this decade.
On the other hand, Australia has never had a higher profile in the world as now, but somehow we never figure out that holding control of our own industry is the key to its continued success. Multinationals will never decide in the interest of our country.
I'd like to point out that whilst India has a population of significantly more than a billion (and growing too rapidly) the proportion that actually has any brass (or valuable skills) is very small indeed. Sure, you can sell things for a dollar to lots of people, but 80% of those billion people can't afford to spend a dollar.
I'd estimate that the number of people who have incomes anywhere near western levels is somewhere between 40-80million, so economy-wise, entering the market is like opening up a mid-size European nation, but without the infrastructure and with bureacracy that the Australian guvmint can only dream about (although there's always a way to get things done) An interesting prospect then, but not something to wet your pants over.
Oh, and by way of background, I've done more than my share of time in India, so I've ridden (and driven) an autorickshaw or two. Another thing - they may have cheap engineers, but they are sadly lacking in the real-world experience that comes from living in a developed economy. You will be teaching them stuff every step of the way, so don't expect a lot of innovation this decade.
On the other hand, Australia has never had a higher profile in the world as now, but somehow we never figure out that holding control of our own industry is the key to its continued success. Multinationals will never decide in the interest of our country.
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Any RR's Puppadum hate fest
Andy, you are a complete nong. you have obviously spent quite some time pedalling a tri-shaw and no time at all having a look at the actual state and capacity of top end Indian manufacturing. You are ignorant of the reality of the Indian Aerospace industry and their automotive manufacturing as well. i would put them well ahead of Aus and WAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of PAC as far as their (pointy end) aeropsace capability, having actually seen some of it myself. I could give examples but there is little point as you wrong and seemingly happy to make ignorant statements such as some of your previous classics.
Were you bitten by a curry when you were a small child??
As for the other extensive and profound statements regarding obstructionism and lack of support from CASA, EFIC, the state and Federal Goverments, some is true, much is opinion, and badly informed opinion at that, and some of what has been stated here is arrant bullsh!t. Oh how the experts start buzzing around the perceived corpse in no time at all. BA and JT are better informed that most and Sunny has some idea but the vast majority , sorry bushy, including you, are wide of the mark.
The GFC, tight credit, no money for finance of new buyers and a bullsh!t US dollar are good reasons to look for investement, especially when GA was looking to expand into additional world markets, ( do not just read India here), and the need to fund R&D projects (Howard swung an axe through Australian manufacturing R&D, calling it industrial welfare, good one John). Cessna have done their best to kill the airvan off and US trade agreement is no useful agreement at all, another good one John!
GA has built about 150 Airvans and about 50 GA200 cropdusters I think, and most of these aircraft have been exported, Aussie is a small part of their market, they are very good manufacturers of products with proven international demand, they don't just build planes for Kunnunurra and Gove to provide something for Low Time sprog CPLs to complain about having not enough turbine engines and being too slow.
Any way who said the whole thing was going off shore, I didn't see that in the media release, those i know at GA are looking toward the future of the compant with great optimism.
I was a little surprised to see many of the great knockers of Aussie designed and manufactured aircraft( essentially the Airtourer, Nomad and Airvan) are some of the first to put their two cents worth about aussie manufacturing, all of these aircraft faced huge opposition from the locals who individually did their bit to knock, criticise and generally not support these products, and now are banging the gong once again saying what a shame it is, w@ankers, it would be different if even a few of you actually knew what you were talking about, but that has not stopped you previously.
Wait for the next installment, like some of us are are, before you make comment on the facts, that would surely make more sense. as far as i know that's what the boys in Gippsland are doing. You all seem to know more about the rhymes and reasons than anyone who actually works there from what I can find out. (please PM me with the source of your info so I can pass it on, I know some of the blokes would like to get their hands on the real story)
I must say that I have always wondered why indian cars are manufactured with Mirrors or turn signals as they seem completely redundant in their method of driving (makes them such good taxi drivers over here I suppose), but they sure do wear horns out by using them almost non-stop
Incoming!!!......
Andy, you are a complete nong. you have obviously spent quite some time pedalling a tri-shaw and no time at all having a look at the actual state and capacity of top end Indian manufacturing. You are ignorant of the reality of the Indian Aerospace industry and their automotive manufacturing as well. i would put them well ahead of Aus and WAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of PAC as far as their (pointy end) aeropsace capability, having actually seen some of it myself. I could give examples but there is little point as you wrong and seemingly happy to make ignorant statements such as some of your previous classics.
Were you bitten by a curry when you were a small child??
As for the other extensive and profound statements regarding obstructionism and lack of support from CASA, EFIC, the state and Federal Goverments, some is true, much is opinion, and badly informed opinion at that, and some of what has been stated here is arrant bullsh!t. Oh how the experts start buzzing around the perceived corpse in no time at all. BA and JT are better informed that most and Sunny has some idea but the vast majority , sorry bushy, including you, are wide of the mark.
The GFC, tight credit, no money for finance of new buyers and a bullsh!t US dollar are good reasons to look for investement, especially when GA was looking to expand into additional world markets, ( do not just read India here), and the need to fund R&D projects (Howard swung an axe through Australian manufacturing R&D, calling it industrial welfare, good one John). Cessna have done their best to kill the airvan off and US trade agreement is no useful agreement at all, another good one John!
GA has built about 150 Airvans and about 50 GA200 cropdusters I think, and most of these aircraft have been exported, Aussie is a small part of their market, they are very good manufacturers of products with proven international demand, they don't just build planes for Kunnunurra and Gove to provide something for Low Time sprog CPLs to complain about having not enough turbine engines and being too slow.
Any way who said the whole thing was going off shore, I didn't see that in the media release, those i know at GA are looking toward the future of the compant with great optimism.
I was a little surprised to see many of the great knockers of Aussie designed and manufactured aircraft( essentially the Airtourer, Nomad and Airvan) are some of the first to put their two cents worth about aussie manufacturing, all of these aircraft faced huge opposition from the locals who individually did their bit to knock, criticise and generally not support these products, and now are banging the gong once again saying what a shame it is, w@ankers, it would be different if even a few of you actually knew what you were talking about, but that has not stopped you previously.
Wait for the next installment, like some of us are are, before you make comment on the facts, that would surely make more sense. as far as i know that's what the boys in Gippsland are doing. You all seem to know more about the rhymes and reasons than anyone who actually works there from what I can find out. (please PM me with the source of your info so I can pass it on, I know some of the blokes would like to get their hands on the real story)
I must say that I have always wondered why indian cars are manufactured with Mirrors or turn signals as they seem completely redundant in their method of driving (makes them such good taxi drivers over here I suppose), but they sure do wear horns out by using them almost non-stop
Incoming!!!......