Gippsland Aero sold to Indian company
Funnily enough Fanny, you won't catch me disagreeing with much of what you've written. I am well aware of what India can do, both in Aerospace and Automotive, although my direct experience is in the Automotive sector. By no means should they be underestimated - they have some pretty fantastic technologies available to them and hats off to them for it!
But I do get tired of people comparing wages of Indian engineers and saying this gives them a cost advantage - yes it does, but not nearly as much as people believe for reasons I stated earlier. And when that situation changes, they will be as valuable as any Western-educated/brung-up engineer too - top Indian talent is hugely mobile, as you'll have spotted in the various places. Bottom line is there is no excuse why Australia can't do some of the stuff India, China, Czech Republic, Brazil etc are doing.
...except there is an excuse of course, which is the terminal Australian disease. Like a child of wealthy parents who can run back to daddy for more money, we can always dig a bit more dirt out of the big hole and sell it to more innovative and industrious people. Nowadays, of course, we don't just sell the dirt, but also the controlling interest of whole companies digging the dirt.
Which leads me to the point I'd prefer to make and the biggest disappointment of seeing Indians buy GA and AA, is that, yet again, our nation loses control of key companies and the business decisions go elsewhere, not to be made in the interests of growing Australian business, but to further the aims of some foreign power base.
Sorry, whilst I applaud what GA and AA do (and will continue to do), the relinquishing of control of these businesses is a huge and short-sighted loss to Australia and its future, compared to what could happen.
A
But I do get tired of people comparing wages of Indian engineers and saying this gives them a cost advantage - yes it does, but not nearly as much as people believe for reasons I stated earlier. And when that situation changes, they will be as valuable as any Western-educated/brung-up engineer too - top Indian talent is hugely mobile, as you'll have spotted in the various places. Bottom line is there is no excuse why Australia can't do some of the stuff India, China, Czech Republic, Brazil etc are doing.
...except there is an excuse of course, which is the terminal Australian disease. Like a child of wealthy parents who can run back to daddy for more money, we can always dig a bit more dirt out of the big hole and sell it to more innovative and industrious people. Nowadays, of course, we don't just sell the dirt, but also the controlling interest of whole companies digging the dirt.
Which leads me to the point I'd prefer to make and the biggest disappointment of seeing Indians buy GA and AA, is that, yet again, our nation loses control of key companies and the business decisions go elsewhere, not to be made in the interests of growing Australian business, but to further the aims of some foreign power base.
Sorry, whilst I applaud what GA and AA do (and will continue to do), the relinquishing of control of these businesses is a huge and short-sighted loss to Australia and its future, compared to what could happen.
A
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Now that,Andy RR, me old chum, has hit the nail right on the head. Its not about the product, its about the lack of guts on the part of our fearless leaders to protect a product that we can clearly do well. How long will the FOC on Qantas remain in place? I suspect it is all going to get too hard for Krudd & Co so they will just let it go. Instead of being the good old easygoing Aussie, I think it is about time we got a little mercenary and started protecting what we can, while we can, and value-adding in country is the way to go.
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So what is the solution when a foreign owned company likes an Australian product and they want to buy it?
Is our Government supposed to step in and stop the sale and thus take away cash and recognition for the hard working Australians that started the company and put their lives into it?
Is our Government supposed to step in and stop the sale and thus take away cash and recognition for the hard working Australians that started the company and put their lives into it?
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Andy RR, agree with much in your response, however I believe that you may be off the mark regarding low wage engineering in this instance.
ozgaggie, what do you exactly expect our PM to do about this?? this is no hostile take over, ther is no statement at the moment regarding the whole box and dice going off shore, what is the point of your post?? Mr Rudd failed to make good the consequences of Mr Howard's shortsightedness from the last century?
GA is a small player in the manufacturing business, they employ about 100 staff (or did, not sure at the moment due GFC ) they try hard and have excellect product base (despite all the pro-cessna, airvan knockers on this forum) they have excellent product support, especially compared to cessna, and are looking toward placing an upgraded turbine twin back into production. all well and good but hardly compares to some of the larger manufacturers, of various goods, who just shut the shop, sack everyone then say that they can get it made cheaper in china. this is not the case here according to the media statements so far. let's hope it stays that way.
this GA8 project started with a leg up from the labour gov't of the early 90's with an industry R&D grant that GA had to match with money of its own that it made from building its cropdusters. GA is a private campany owned by a few private share holders that can do what they think is in the best interest of their own company. Senoir pollies of alomost every ilk has visited the company over the years,and thsi only resulted in promises from Big Kim, who got flogged, and the removal of Industry R&D by the Coalition. One of the co-founders of the company said that the illustrious DS himself ( not a pollie, but a very good mate of John Howard's) told him that he was wasting his time trying to compete with the americans because they had the game sewn up. This was from the Buy Australian champion himself.
I hardly think they will take your advice at this stage seeing you have never put one cent into the company.
Mahindra and Mahindra have bought all sorts of (mainly manufacturing) comapnies where they see a good product with great potential, but a company without the financial legs to get the essential R&D done, and the subsequent marketing and promotion on a global basis. GA is a mum and dad company that has well out grown the mum and dad, and son and daughter, and daughter in law etc..etc...method of management and needs something such as this to let it reach its full potential.
Those that I know there are of mixed feelings for many reasons but all agree that this SHOULD mark the beginning of a big step, and positive, forward for the company. I hope for their sake it does, and the mum and dad (and the kiddies) have to allow some of the non family talent to help manage the company in a way that is positive and productive. Again we will see. the Turbine developement has been mooted for years and much initial work was done in the late 90's/early 00's, but has been crushingly slow due to the sheer scale of the costs associated with it and the determined attitude to go it alone by senior management. The support that comes with a major company like M&M (ha ha m&m) should at least get this much needed project rolling.
This is an interesting development in the Australian aerospace industry, and methinks we have not seen that last of major foreign investment in this field. While we all keep shopping at discount houses and let our indigenous companys starve while we rush off to buy new cessnas we have no right to start stoning whomever we have the hates on at the moment. take your redneck blinkers off and look for the real answers, not just the politically convenient ones.
Many of those in CASA (Central Office that is ) are highly motivated to see GA do well, but making a company successful is not their mandate. impartial attitude to safety (supposedly) is. There are also within CASA who would not lift a finger or do one extra minute of effort to save GA if it was going under, this has been stated by some who say that they are under no economic imperative, GA will just have to keep the dollars churning while they take their full amount of time scrutininizing every aspect of the certification and manufacturing process in its turn while they look after the airlines. There were also some malicious types who did not wish GA well, though they seem to have left the building. all except one jumped up little jerk who believes that he is the world oracle about certification and Fxxxxt Txxt Exxxxxxxxxg. he has almost broken the company all by himself. the smug little weasel. I am not surprised that he has no friends, inside or out of the Authority, many will know of whom i speak.
Enough for now, can't wait to see the next Media release from GA ro MA or what ever they will be called now.
Off to work time
ozgaggie, what do you exactly expect our PM to do about this?? this is no hostile take over, ther is no statement at the moment regarding the whole box and dice going off shore, what is the point of your post?? Mr Rudd failed to make good the consequences of Mr Howard's shortsightedness from the last century?
GA is a small player in the manufacturing business, they employ about 100 staff (or did, not sure at the moment due GFC ) they try hard and have excellect product base (despite all the pro-cessna, airvan knockers on this forum) they have excellent product support, especially compared to cessna, and are looking toward placing an upgraded turbine twin back into production. all well and good but hardly compares to some of the larger manufacturers, of various goods, who just shut the shop, sack everyone then say that they can get it made cheaper in china. this is not the case here according to the media statements so far. let's hope it stays that way.
this GA8 project started with a leg up from the labour gov't of the early 90's with an industry R&D grant that GA had to match with money of its own that it made from building its cropdusters. GA is a private campany owned by a few private share holders that can do what they think is in the best interest of their own company. Senoir pollies of alomost every ilk has visited the company over the years,and thsi only resulted in promises from Big Kim, who got flogged, and the removal of Industry R&D by the Coalition. One of the co-founders of the company said that the illustrious DS himself ( not a pollie, but a very good mate of John Howard's) told him that he was wasting his time trying to compete with the americans because they had the game sewn up. This was from the Buy Australian champion himself.
I hardly think they will take your advice at this stage seeing you have never put one cent into the company.
Mahindra and Mahindra have bought all sorts of (mainly manufacturing) comapnies where they see a good product with great potential, but a company without the financial legs to get the essential R&D done, and the subsequent marketing and promotion on a global basis. GA is a mum and dad company that has well out grown the mum and dad, and son and daughter, and daughter in law etc..etc...method of management and needs something such as this to let it reach its full potential.
Those that I know there are of mixed feelings for many reasons but all agree that this SHOULD mark the beginning of a big step, and positive, forward for the company. I hope for their sake it does, and the mum and dad (and the kiddies) have to allow some of the non family talent to help manage the company in a way that is positive and productive. Again we will see. the Turbine developement has been mooted for years and much initial work was done in the late 90's/early 00's, but has been crushingly slow due to the sheer scale of the costs associated with it and the determined attitude to go it alone by senior management. The support that comes with a major company like M&M (ha ha m&m) should at least get this much needed project rolling.
This is an interesting development in the Australian aerospace industry, and methinks we have not seen that last of major foreign investment in this field. While we all keep shopping at discount houses and let our indigenous companys starve while we rush off to buy new cessnas we have no right to start stoning whomever we have the hates on at the moment. take your redneck blinkers off and look for the real answers, not just the politically convenient ones.
Many of those in CASA (Central Office that is ) are highly motivated to see GA do well, but making a company successful is not their mandate. impartial attitude to safety (supposedly) is. There are also within CASA who would not lift a finger or do one extra minute of effort to save GA if it was going under, this has been stated by some who say that they are under no economic imperative, GA will just have to keep the dollars churning while they take their full amount of time scrutininizing every aspect of the certification and manufacturing process in its turn while they look after the airlines. There were also some malicious types who did not wish GA well, though they seem to have left the building. all except one jumped up little jerk who believes that he is the world oracle about certification and Fxxxxt Txxt Exxxxxxxxxg. he has almost broken the company all by himself. the smug little weasel. I am not surprised that he has no friends, inside or out of the Authority, many will know of whom i speak.
Enough for now, can't wait to see the next Media release from GA ro MA or what ever they will be called now.
Off to work time
All a bit emotive me thinks. There was a lot of Government money put in, and there was a lot of private money put in .... it isn't just a few shareholders. These are the stakeholders, and if the outcome has been a success for them (by whatever criteria) we shall see more enterprises try. And vice versa ... time will tell
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From Aviation International News
Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M) of India acquired a 75.1-percent stake each in Australia’s Aerostaff Australia (AA) and Gippsland Aeronautics (GA) last week. Mahindra Systech president and M&M board member Hemant Luthra told AIN, “These acquisitions have been made under subsidiary Mahindra Aerospace with a total commitment of approximately $37.4 million over the next five years. We will retain the existing managements of GA and AA, securing the services of the founders who developed this technology.” The company had earlier invested $10 million in Mahindra Aerospace’s facility in the south India city of Mallur, which it expects to be ready by July. “We will manufacture aircraft for the two- to 20-seat market, both piston-powered and turboprop, and will price them competitively,” Luthra said. Gippsland’s product portfolio includes the GA200C agricultural aircraft, eight-seat GA8 Airvan and an 18-seat turboprop. The portfolio will also include the N5, a five-seat aircraft that is being jointly developed by Mahindra with India’s National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL). The company expects production of aircraft to begin by 2011. Aerostaff Australia is an aircraft component and assemblies manufacturer for large aerospace OEMs.
Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M) of India acquired a 75.1-percent stake each in Australia’s Aerostaff Australia (AA) and Gippsland Aeronautics (GA) last week. Mahindra Systech president and M&M board member Hemant Luthra told AIN, “These acquisitions have been made under subsidiary Mahindra Aerospace with a total commitment of approximately $37.4 million over the next five years. We will retain the existing managements of GA and AA, securing the services of the founders who developed this technology.” The company had earlier invested $10 million in Mahindra Aerospace’s facility in the south India city of Mallur, which it expects to be ready by July. “We will manufacture aircraft for the two- to 20-seat market, both piston-powered and turboprop, and will price them competitively,” Luthra said. Gippsland’s product portfolio includes the GA200C agricultural aircraft, eight-seat GA8 Airvan and an 18-seat turboprop. The portfolio will also include the N5, a five-seat aircraft that is being jointly developed by Mahindra with India’s National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL). The company expects production of aircraft to begin by 2011. Aerostaff Australia is an aircraft component and assemblies manufacturer for large aerospace OEMs.
A gross generalization perhaps, but IME whereas many "western" engineers would have grown up tinkering with stuff in the garage on weekends, even a familiarity with domestic gadgets like dishwashers, microwaves and vacuum cleaners, Indians seemed (to me) to live generally spartan lives, spend all their (very little) spare time going to the temple and with other long-standing family traditions. Almost none of them would get involved in DIY-type stuff.
I'm sure this will change with time and generations and that you can find contradictory examples (so can I) but this was my experience after working in India with them for a couple of years.
A
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Once the original design work and templating has been done - (note that they are retaining those that started the company for now) the rest just becomes grunt work, so in all honesty they won't need the "tinkering" background for the company to be successful or profitable. I note Gippy Aero seemingly went through this process in it's early days as they employed many talented locals with aviation backgrounds to develop the components and procedures and now all that is left is low skilled process worker type jobs ( or at least so it would seem from an outsiders perspective ) Great effort by the likes of Morgan and White etc who have possibly made a stack of cash!
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Australia will continue to loose industry to foreign owners, and be uncompetative, as long as our population assumes holidays are a national sport. Finish school, take a year off and explore the world. Take a sicky here and there. Long service leave. The US only has 2 weeks annual leave.
We cannot expect to be competitive when we all are on holiday. We now import beef into Australia, and physically make very little.
The newest building in most cities in Australia is Centrelink.
We cannot expect to be competitive when we all are on holiday. We now import beef into Australia, and physically make very little.
The newest building in most cities in Australia is Centrelink.
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We now import beef into Australia
Why sell beef to the local market for less than you can get for it overseas?
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Why sell beef to the local market for less than you can get for it overseas?
Another weird Australian import/export data point:
A foundry I was talking to said they could (and did) buy Australian zircon sand cheaper from the US, including import and shipping chargers, than any Australian supplier.
Work that one out!
IMO most of the anomalies and disincentives are due to government and bureaucratic meddling, not to mention corporate tax rates that a well above global averages. Given that government has an appalling track record in the efficient use of capital as well as amazing incompetence in regulation (check out the recent successes of ASIC!
) they could do better to leave well alone and let the business community get on with it.
A foundry I was talking to said they could (and did) buy Australian zircon sand cheaper from the US, including import and shipping chargers, than any Australian supplier.
Work that one out!
IMO most of the anomalies and disincentives are due to government and bureaucratic meddling, not to mention corporate tax rates that a well above global averages. Given that government has an appalling track record in the efficient use of capital as well as amazing incompetence in regulation (check out the recent successes of ASIC!
) they could do better to leave well alone and let the business community get on with it.
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There is an item that I buy that retails for $1500 Aus. The retailer tells me it is the conversion between the Aus and Us dollar. I can buy it direct from the US for $299 US plus postage. Delivered it is $499 US. So someone is making $1000 Aus.
Australians are being robbed somewhere, and I don't believe it is the US. Australian wholesalers have their hand in the till.
David Clarke head sets that sold for $1100 in Aus were recently available in the US for $550 Aus plus $50 postage. The trough is big, and there are many heads in it. Where is the ACCC?
Australians are being robbed somewhere, and I don't believe it is the US. Australian wholesalers have their hand in the till.
David Clarke head sets that sold for $1100 in Aus were recently available in the US for $550 Aus plus $50 postage. The trough is big, and there are many heads in it. Where is the ACCC?
TIO, you just have to look at magazine prices at the newsagents compared to taking the time and starting a subscription for same. Three times that cost is not too outragious for the local newsagents
Its not just aviation...its everywhere! Protectionism by a different name!
Its not just aviation...its everywhere! Protectionism by a different name!
To FannyPhelan, I must take issue wrt the investment incentive of the Hawke/Keating government....I recollect this was manipulated to actually sit on worthwhile developments to ensure maximum return on the subsidy. It may have been a "Good Thing" with GA but general industry wide there were serious ripoffs by "investors" putting money into any R&D....provided it didn't make any money out of the development. Spend a $100 and get $150 back If the device wasn't going to return more than 50% on investment, it was sat on.
So the message that comes out here is that provided some Mug is prepared to put up the cash, be it Government or Private (and lose said money) it's OK because aeroplanes are being built. This is exactly what is wrong with the industry. The aircraft design industry will not progress until those inside it (and especially those outside it) are convinced that there is money in it. If you argue the "national good" ( whatever that is) then probably the Gippy Mod of the PA31 has contributed more to moving people around in Australia than the Airvan ever did
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I worked at Gippies
I worked at gippies as an assembler and in my opinion the indians are well come to it, the Airvan is a **** box ...good luck to them .by the way george and his mate have been well supported by the Victorian tax payer ,they have paid for every thing ,hangars ,staff salarys etc etc 
for crying out loud ,next time you see one have a good look at the fuse ,Ive seen boats built better than it ...good ridence
for crying out loud ,next time you see one have a good look at the fuse ,Ive seen boats built better than it ...good ridence
Good-oh Prophead! You can't spell or punctuate, but you've convinced me that you too can build a business from nothing to create an internationally successful product even with a load of taxpayer help. 'Cause you've done it, haven't you? You'd know it was piss-easy and you'll also be able to tell us why there's loads of these businesses thriving on every street corner and that red-tape and bureaucratic bungling never gets in the road of such economic progress. Of course you can! ...and we'll believe every word.
not!
not!
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Yeah Prophead, I have flown the Airvan and it is a great airplane, as good or better than any other out there so far as the quality of the airframe is concerned. I have not seen any complaints about reliability?
No light airplane is perfect, but certification generally assures that someone has looked at the design and production to be reasonably sure it meets required specs. Are you suggesting this is not the case with the Airvan?
No light airplane is perfect, but certification generally assures that someone has looked at the design and production to be reasonably sure it meets required specs. Are you suggesting this is not the case with the Airvan?