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Flying the DC3

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Old 21st Jan 2009, 09:39
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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............."Possibly another good reason for feathering before shutting down. Quick and easy to recover if wrong one"....................

Better still, I reckon once we had to do the shutdown and all drills, as a crew effort... F.O. confirming the action, the mistakes decreased.
For the first couple of years I flew 'em, the captain had feathered the thing before I'd realized what he was up to.
A couple of times I was looking out the side reporting the oil spillage or checking for smoke while the old boy was quite happily, rapidly closing the throttle, feathering, cutting off the mixture.
I'd be swinging my head back around at the same time as he was pushing in a boot full of rudder.
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Old 21st Jan 2009, 11:37
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'Twas back in the very late '60's.....Sandstone WA...dirt / gravel strip, well dirt anyway, and I was there on chtr in my C172 'bugsmasher', when VH-MIN landed for lunch.
They were carrying out aerial survey in the area.

Whilst we were all at the pub grabbing a counter lunch, in came the biggest CB / XXRASH....and thoroughly dumped on the 'strip.

We were ALL amazed to see the '3's wheels actually sunk into the saturated dirt / now mud!
They were there for about 3 days before it dried out sufficiently, and they had to dig and get a tow out of their holes......

I just jumped into my 'bugsmasher' and departed on the 'harder' bits.

I guess the boys 'enjoyed' their stay in sunny downtown Sandstone....
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Old 21st Jan 2009, 11:53
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Reminds me of an entry in my logbook which simply says 'Hoskins slide' .At the time I was just a sprog F/O but after a few hundred hours in PNG under the tutorship of a particular master of the art, I could 3 point the Gooney Bird with the best of them. Flying for the first time with a Captain from another base, leg for leg, he was wheeling it on, I was doggedly 3 pointing it when it was my go, and of course the discussion came to which produced the shortest landing. Pissing contest commences.
His turn, going in to Hoskins with a fair bit of rain about and landing slightly down hill to save time. The old terminal was at the beach end of the runway. A bit fast, but he greases it on, jumps on the brakes. Nothing. I look out the window and say 'Jim, my wheel's locked - you are skidding'. Eventually he gets the tail down but about then he realises he won't get it stopped, so next thing he deliberately ground looped it. We went off the far end going backwards at about 5 knots I suppose. It took two Landrovers and some ropes to haul the old girl back up onto the runway. He swore me to secrecy and was always good for free SP (SP Lager to the uninitiated, aka Swamp Piss) after that one.
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Old 21st Jan 2009, 12:39
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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My Dad was on the both the Berlin Airlift and the Indian Airlift in them. In India they were putting 90 pax in, just sitting on the floor. Plus goats, chickens etc. So many stories. It was also the first airliner I ever flew in - Southampton - Jersey, about 1963 or 64 I guess. The inflight announcement from the flight deck was handwritten note passed back by pax from row to row. I think I still have it somewhere.

I think it's a toss up whether I enjoyed that flight as much as or more than my one flight on Concorde in 1985. Opposite ends of the incredible spectrum that is aviation.
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Old 22nd Jan 2009, 06:14
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It’s Darwin, early 70s, pre Cyclone Tracy and a “Canary Coloured C--- Carrier” DC3, possibly EWE, is parked at the front of the hangar. She’s loaded with food and essentials for a 3am charter to a Territory mission that was isolated due wet season flooding.

Comes 3.15 and the captain still hasn’t shown, Al the FO and Jack, the departure engineer have another coffee and a smoke.

3.30 and a car skids to a halt at the hangar door. Jerry, as a senior captain of the airline, doesn’t have to explain anything, but in one sentence he squares away the underpants he is holding in his hand and why he is late. “**** mate, sorry. Didn’t have time to put these on. I woke up early and thought I'd have a quick run over the target but after half and hour of rasping, no matter what I did, I couldn’t shoot my bolt, couldn’t unload.” Mouth agape, all Jack could muster was a feeble, “fair enough.”

With that, Jerry goes to the back corner, dons his jocks and completes his dressing. Then, with Al, walks out to EWE. Al at this time was going through the separation process and was heard to say to Jerry, “Couldn’t blow your bolt ay? That’s interesting because I’ve got the opposite problem…we’ll have to talk some more about it.”

They crank up the 3 and taxi off into the darkness. About 10 minutes later, Jack gets a phone call from ATC, EWE has a hydraulic leak and is returning. “Don’t go home.” She pulls up, Jack throws the chocks in and has a cursory look around but there is no sign of red oil. He climbs aboard and while checking the hydraulic reservoir sight gauge just aft of the FO, Jerry says, “Relax, Jack. There’s no leak. That’s bull****. But check out that load back there will you? We were 10 miles out and struggling to make 300 ft.” The shirt backs of the drivers, soaked with sweat, confirmed they had been under the pump.

Jack didn’t bother to ask for the Trim sheet because he knew there probably wasn’t one. But it was now that he was hearing the 1 inch oleo extensions (normally about 3˝ ins) that were shouting, “I’m heavy!”

It turns out the truck driver who delivered the pallets, mainly tinned and bottled food, unloaded his consignment for 2 charters beside the 3 and the loaders, not familiar with cargo ops, thought they had done a marvelous job in managing to fit it all aboard in one load.

To be sure, the Take Off power limits of 5 minutes and 48 ins would have been pushed that morning. And a frustrating night for Jerry; twice he didn’t get to unload.

Last edited by Wingnuts; 22nd Jan 2009 at 10:53.
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Old 22nd Jan 2009, 09:40
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Extract from Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for Army Models C-47, C-47A, C-47B, and Navy Models R4D-1, R4D-5, R4D-6 and British models Dakota 1, Dakota 111, Dakota 1V airplanes: Page 34. Date 20 November 1944 and revised 5 February 1945

Starting: Simultaneously move the engine starter safety switch to the On position and the right engine starter switch to Start position. When the engine starter has reached full speed, hold the engine starter safety switch in the On position and move the right engine starter switch to the MESH position.

After one complete revolution of the propeller, turn the ignition switch On and right engine ignition switch to the Both position. Without hesitation push the right carburetor mixture control to the AUTO RICH position. Return the control to IDLE CUT-OFf position if the engine does not start within five seconds. Operate the fuel pressure wobble pump (if installed) until the engine runs smoothly. Resume the priming operation if necessary. Adjust the throttle so that the right tachometer indicates between 600 and 800 rpm. Engine warm up - operate the engine at 800-1000 rpm until engine oil temp is 40 degrees C and CHT 120 degrees C min.
............................................................ .........................

Fast forward to RAF Pilot's Notes for Dakota Mk 1V and reproduced by permission of United Staes Government. Air Ministry June 1946. A.P. 2445D

Starting (page 22): Have each engine turned by hand for at least two revolutions of the propeller in order to overcome the possibility of hydraulic shock damage.

Then for each engine in turn:
Switch on the fuel booster pump and prime the engine by giving 2-4 flicks of the primer, keeping it depressed for periods of about one second at a time. Switch on the ignition. Energise the starter for about ten seconds. Keep the energising switch on and mesh the starter. When the engine fires and picks up speed, release the switches and move the mixture control to Auto rich: continue priming as required until the engine is running smoothly, but if it shows sign of over-richness, stop priming and return the mixture control to Idle Cut-Off for a few seconds.

If the engine fails to pick up: stop priming and return the mixture immediately to Idle Cut-Off. Wait until the propeller stops rotating. Switch Off the ignition. Close the switches to engage the flywheel with the engine, thus ensurung the flywheel stops, then release the switches. Have the propeller turned forward through at least half a revolution by hand to disengage the flywheel from the engine. If the engine has been over-primed, open the throttle and have the propeller turned by hand through several revolutions.
............................................................ ...............................

Every pilot and engineer has his own pet starting method as we have seen in earlier posts but the above info is as "official" as you can get.
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Old 22nd Jan 2009, 11:16
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Here are the starting instructions for the "Twin Wasp S1C3-G" as shown in Pratt and Whitney Specific Operating instructions 72 dated September 16 1946 and revised October 25 1962 (Part No. 118450)

STARTING.

CONTROL SETTINGS
Ignition: Off
Mixture: Idle Cut-off
Propeller: High RPM (Low Pitch)
Carburettor Heat: Cold (Off)
Cowl Flaps: Full Open
Oil Cooler Shutters: Closed (or Automatic)
Throttle: 1/10 to 1/4 Open (to give 800-1000 rpm after engine starts)

The following starting procedure is recommended with direct cranking starters:

1. Before starting the engine, note the manifold pressure gage reading to use as a reference during subsequent power and magneto checks. This is field barometric pressure.

2. Fuel supply - ON

3. Auxiliary fuel pump - ON

4. Motor over the engine with the starter. If possible, watch the propeller motion. At any sign of hesitation or stoppage, disengage the starter, turn off the auxiliary fuel pump, and investigate. Do not prime until Step 6.

5. After the engine has turned freely fourteen blades for engines equipped with three-bladed propellers to ensure adequate oil supply being pumped to the reduction gears, turn ignition to BOTH. If less than one hour has elapsed since the previous shut-down, let it turn freely six blades and turn ignition to BOTH.

6. Prime while cranking - intermittently if engine is warm, continuously if cold.

7. After engine fires, slowly ease mixture control out of Idle Cut-off to Automatic Rich using prime as required until engine is securely started.

8. After engine starts, adjust throttle to 600 to 800 rpm, watching for oil pressure rise.

Etc etc….

This is also official but in these days of the Aircraft Flight Manual being the "Bible" this could probably be considered as the engine manufacturer’s guide to the aircraft manufacturer! And of course Douglas wasn’t the only aircraft manufacturer to use the R1830.

Blackburn
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Old 23rd Jan 2009, 11:13
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Yes, TKFS, not much to play with there. I guess at MAUW + 3000lbs and at ISA + 15, there is only one direction it would be heading and that’s ‘south’.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the main concerns with starting is the possibility of the oft mentioned ‘hydraulic lock’; the accumulation of engine oil and or fuel in the lower cylinders. Uncompressible, this prevents the piston’s travel short of a full length and something has to give. Usually a bent piston con rod (link rod) that may subsequently crack and break. The longer an engine stands between running, the greater will be the quantity of oil in the lower cylinders.)

In way of protection, the starter incorporates a clutch. If lock is encountered, the clutch will slip, prop stop, maybe kick back a little, but no damage. This protection is lost any time the prop is turned by hand.

To clear a lock, a spark plug needs to be removed from the lower cylinders and the engine cranked over.

For a quick fix, some have been known to hand turn the prop backwards, the theory being that this allows oil to move into the exhaust pipe and then be pumped overboard via the exhaust on the subsequent start. However, depending on where the piston is in its cycle, there is the possibility of oil entering the inlet pipe rather than the exhaust. This temporally clears the lock but the oil may be forced back into the cylinder by compressed air on the next induction stroke. Expensive.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, Onedong. It’s basically true. I changed the names to protect the innocent, namely me. I enjoyed the video, even the chatter of the tappets.

For a cockpit video clip of starting the 3, click here:

YouTube - How to start a DC-3
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Old 24th Jan 2009, 01:27
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Great thread.....

Spent a few hrs in DC-3's.....great way to earn your spurs.

Spent alot of time working on them as well.

Did someone need an explaination of the Wright/Pratt differences?

I spent about 900 hrs in the Super DC-3 too...no not the turbine one...

YouTube - douglas dc-3
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Old 24th Jan 2009, 08:58
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The 'Gooney Bird' just flow over my house, not five minutes ago. Heard her coming (of course) so I went out to the back garden and watched as she banked gently to the left, possibly inbound for Essendon Airport. I'm gonna have to bite the bullet this year and book one of those Saturday evening dinner flights.
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Old 24th Jan 2009, 10:02
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Teal, DO it!
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Old 25th Jan 2009, 03:13
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Flying Dc-3's for a living...whats it like?

Its like catching the clap.

Lots of fun till you know you've caught it...

Then for a while it really sucks...

But after you've been cured you look back and decide it wasn't THAT bad....

I have a bunch o' adventures I could share about the 3 but problem is ...

1. No one believes ya

and

2. I'd implicate myself in some serious shennanigans.....
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Old 25th Jan 2009, 16:25
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Speaking of catching the clap.

Mixed emotions is when you get back home after an out of town trip that you caught the clap on and not knowing you have it yet you hump your wife as per expected.

When she confronts with the fact you gave her the clap you blame her for giving it to you and she starts to cry and asks you to forgive her.
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Old 25th Jan 2009, 23:59
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Do the initials PCOD mean anything?

Last edited by privateer01; 26th Jan 2009 at 01:23. Reason: photo added
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Old 27th Jan 2009, 10:19
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Apparently back in the olden days, there was a procedure on the 3 to deliberately seize the engine. I’m not sure if me old mate is having a lend of me on this, but he swears it is true.

If the controllability of the aircraft was compromised by an uncontrollable overspeeding prop (for example, would not feather due Feather pump u/s) the idea was to close the Emergency Fire Shut Off Valve. This would shut off the engine oil, engine seize, the prop shaft would shear at the prop gearbox outlet and prop separate…overspeeding prop fixed!

That was the theory. In practice, it could get a bit messy. For a start, if the prop did not separate, the drag of the frozen prop was greater than a windmilling prop. But assuming it did separate, apart from the risk of substantial damage to the fuselage, if the gearbox inlet sheared instead of the outlet you had a rotating gearbox without oil cooling. The overheating would ignite the magnesium gearbox casing. Of course the prop and gearbox assembly would soon separate so then all you had to deal with was an uncontrollable engine fire.

Dose any one know if there is a skerrick of truth in this or is me old mate taking the piss?
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Old 27th Jan 2009, 17:06
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As I remember the immediate procedure for an overspeed was Pitch.

Pitch up and reduce the prop speed. Push the Feather button to reduce prop speed.

Pulling the cut off also shuts off the fuel so that would shut down the engine.

As to what would seize and stop the engine...well roll the dice and take your chances. I know of at least on case where the complete prop and gearbox departed the aircraft after oil starvation.

Every DC-3 I flew...feathering was accomplished by a feather pump on an Electric motor. Pushing the feather button started the pump. When appropriate pressure (450- 600 psi is memory serves) is reached a valve shift occurred via the prop governor in the prop hub.

It was an extremely simple system and not prone to too many errors.

That being said I did lose a friend in upstate New York when the engine failed to feather on a ferry flight (Engine failure not an Overspeed).

Some of the reasons the system failed to feather the prop:

Pressure switch would cut off the pump at too low a pressure....(it was possible to get around this by holding the feather button in)

Weak Electric motors. Screwed up electric motors were known to pop breakers and overheat before reaching proper pressure.

Additional the oil line (Aeroquip, Flexible) running to the prop governor from the feather pump lead a hard life and was subject to deterioration rapidly. I've seen many a line rupture. I believe that was the cause of the New York crash...but the aircraft was destroyed by post crash fire.

Three things I never flew a DC-3 without:
Fire Detection
Fire Suppression
Feathering.
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Old 27th Jan 2009, 23:39
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I used to make sure I had sufficient fuel also.
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Old 28th Jan 2009, 01:04
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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Overstatement of the obvious...however gas is better than brains.

Come to think of it....there were a couple of the -3's that the oil would run out before the gas
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Old 28th Jan 2009, 01:41
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Confucius say: Man who have sex with woman in parked DC3 not on level.
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Old 28th Jan 2009, 01:59
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What did Confucius say about in flight?
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