Flying the DC3
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The 1830 is a marvel but the Wright 1820 is a different animal all together
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A Big Thanks
Thanks to all the contributors to this thread. It has been great reading and clearly these iconic aircraft have won a place in many hearts.
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Starting the 3
Thanks for the response. I get the impression it does not much matter. However, Mr. Pratt and Mr. Whitney went to a lot of trouble to fit the primer system (especially the original ‘spider’ type). ‘Prime’ means ‘first’ and the P&W Maint. Manual (1975) is specific, “It is essential that the mixture control remain in Idle Cut-off at all times when the engine is not firing.”
But perhaps, with the advent of electric boost pumps and a redesigned primer discharge into the compressor, things have moved on.
A modern day DC3 school instructs the reverse sequence:
LEFT ENGINE START
C FIRE GUARD.............................................POSTED
C LEFT ENGINE ...........................................CLEAR
C LEFT STARTER.....................................ENGAGE
C LEFT PROPELLER ......................... ........9 - 12 BLADES
C LEFT ENGINE MIXTURE...........................AUTO RICH
C LEFT ENGINE MAGS ...............................BOTH
C LEFT ENGINE THROTTLE.........................ADVANCE SLIGHTLY
C LEFT ENGINE PRIMER.............................AS REQUIRED
C LEFT ENGINE STARTER...........................OFF
Engine Start Sequence
Ensure that the boost pump for the respective
engine is in the ON position. Move and hold the
pre-oiler control ON, and the Starter Control Switch
to the desired position to engage the starter. Turn
the engine over three complete revolutions (9
“blades” - minimum). If the engine has been shut
down for more than four hours, the engine will be
turned over by the starter for at least four full
revolutions (12 “blades”) with the Ignition OFF prior
to start.
When ready for ignition, the Captain will bring the
appropriate mixture control lever out of idle cutoff,
place the magneto switch in the BOTH position,
and advance the throttle slightly.
Priming is not normally necessary. However, if the
engine is cold, the Captain will depress the primer
switch for 5 to 8 seconds after start to aid in engine
acceleration and repeat as necessary.
If the engine does not start within 3 to 5 seconds
select the primer for the appropriate engine. If the
engine does not start in the next 10 seconds, return
the mixture control to idle cutoff and continue
rotation with the starter. An exterior investigation
may be necessary to ascertain why the engine did
not start.
After first indication of engine start, keep the engine
turning with the starter until it can be determined
that the engine will continue to accelerate.
----------------------------------------
The prime first method takes finesse, practice and experience, not easily obtainable these days.
The second method is easy and seems to work ok for the weekend warrior.
What are the ‘nuts and bolts’ issues?
Flooding/backfire, fire – internal engine and on ground from prime drain, hydraulic lock?
But perhaps, with the advent of electric boost pumps and a redesigned primer discharge into the compressor, things have moved on.
A modern day DC3 school instructs the reverse sequence:
LEFT ENGINE START
C FIRE GUARD.............................................POSTED
C LEFT ENGINE ...........................................CLEAR
C LEFT STARTER.....................................ENGAGE
C LEFT PROPELLER ......................... ........9 - 12 BLADES
C LEFT ENGINE MIXTURE...........................AUTO RICH
C LEFT ENGINE MAGS ...............................BOTH
C LEFT ENGINE THROTTLE.........................ADVANCE SLIGHTLY
C LEFT ENGINE PRIMER.............................AS REQUIRED
C LEFT ENGINE STARTER...........................OFF
Engine Start Sequence
Ensure that the boost pump for the respective
engine is in the ON position. Move and hold the
pre-oiler control ON, and the Starter Control Switch
to the desired position to engage the starter. Turn
the engine over three complete revolutions (9
“blades” - minimum). If the engine has been shut
down for more than four hours, the engine will be
turned over by the starter for at least four full
revolutions (12 “blades”) with the Ignition OFF prior
to start.
When ready for ignition, the Captain will bring the
appropriate mixture control lever out of idle cutoff,
place the magneto switch in the BOTH position,
and advance the throttle slightly.
Priming is not normally necessary. However, if the
engine is cold, the Captain will depress the primer
switch for 5 to 8 seconds after start to aid in engine
acceleration and repeat as necessary.
If the engine does not start within 3 to 5 seconds
select the primer for the appropriate engine. If the
engine does not start in the next 10 seconds, return
the mixture control to idle cutoff and continue
rotation with the starter. An exterior investigation
may be necessary to ascertain why the engine did
not start.
After first indication of engine start, keep the engine
turning with the starter until it can be determined
that the engine will continue to accelerate.
----------------------------------------
The prime first method takes finesse, practice and experience, not easily obtainable these days.
The second method is easy and seems to work ok for the weekend warrior.
What are the ‘nuts and bolts’ issues?
Flooding/backfire, fire – internal engine and on ground from prime drain, hydraulic lock?
While we are discussing how to start it, how about a parallel discussion on how to shut an engine down in an emergency?
I was taught the sequence:
Feather Button - press until it latched in
Mixture - ICO
Throttle - fully shut
Pitch - full coarse
Check prop feathered, feather button tripped out
Firewall shutoff - if needed - pull
Fire bottle - if needed - discharge
The reason given for hitting the feather button first rather than closing throttle/pulling mixtrure was to prevent the prop going the wrong way towards fine pitch and creating even more drag. I think the assumption was that usually even if it's on fire or has thrown a rod, blown a jug etc, it will still be producing some power. A 'dead cut' on an 1830 is most likely fuel mismanagement or fuel pump failure and so would not warrant feathering. In this case we were told to close the throttle and sort it out.
I was taught the sequence:
Feather Button - press until it latched in
Mixture - ICO
Throttle - fully shut
Pitch - full coarse
Check prop feathered, feather button tripped out
Firewall shutoff - if needed - pull
Fire bottle - if needed - discharge
The reason given for hitting the feather button first rather than closing throttle/pulling mixtrure was to prevent the prop going the wrong way towards fine pitch and creating even more drag. I think the assumption was that usually even if it's on fire or has thrown a rod, blown a jug etc, it will still be producing some power. A 'dead cut' on an 1830 is most likely fuel mismanagement or fuel pump failure and so would not warrant feathering. In this case we were told to close the throttle and sort it out.
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Hydraulic Lock
That reminds me the last time I had one of those about 10 years ago. I didn’t have to start it or anything….it just happened. But then I got the sequence wrong. I should have taken a photo of it before actioning it.
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The problem with discussing how to start a P&W 1830 on an internet forum is it always ends up in " word salading " where everyone mixes the wording and comes up with their own vision of how this procedure is best accomplished.
I found the best way to address these issues was to offer a training program for people who wish to learn how to operate these machines, that was the best solution for me as I made a lot of money doing it.
The bottom line is there is no " ONE " method to start one as there are many different circumstances that enter the equation, such as are you trying to start this beast in the Arctic or in the Tropics........or on Pprune.
I found the best way to address these issues was to offer a training program for people who wish to learn how to operate these machines, that was the best solution for me as I made a lot of money doing it.
The bottom line is there is no " ONE " method to start one as there are many different circumstances that enter the equation, such as are you trying to start this beast in the Arctic or in the Tropics........or on Pprune.
Well said Chuck. Also the best people to teach how to do these things are those who have actually done them in the real world. And for the longer the better. 100 hours in a Dak does not make an accomplished Dak driver. At 1,000 hours most intelligent pilots would be getting the hang of it and would have had time to see a few of its peculiarities. And yes, there are some important differences in techniques and care of these beautiful old things between Arctic, desert and mountainous wet tropics.
I was privileged to experience all three environments in modest doses.
At only 3,000 hours on type, I dips me lid to the Larry Blackmans of this world - 25,000 or so hours I believe he had on the old girl.
I was privileged to experience all three environments in modest doses.
At only 3,000 hours on type, I dips me lid to the Larry Blackmans of this world - 25,000 or so hours I believe he had on the old girl.
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25,000 hours on type....wow...that is incredible.
I'm relatively low time on these birds that have 1830's hung on the wings, only about 10,000 hours about half DC3 and half PBY.
But my real passion is working as a mechanic on them and I was fortunate to have worked with some of the best in the world.
Hope to some day visit Australia and see all my Aussie friends I met and flew with in Portugal. For sure they know how to use interesting language..I learned some new stuff from them.
Hell I still have my CASA authorization to fly and teach on Aussie registered airplanes.
I'm relatively low time on these birds that have 1830's hung on the wings, only about 10,000 hours about half DC3 and half PBY.
But my real passion is working as a mechanic on them and I was fortunate to have worked with some of the best in the world.
Hope to some day visit Australia and see all my Aussie friends I met and flew with in Portugal. For sure they know how to use interesting language..I learned some new stuff from them.
Hell I still have my CASA authorization to fly and teach on Aussie registered airplanes.
For sure they know how to use interesting language.
Cripes Chuckles, you shoulda been down the hangar last night when we closed the doors old mate. Chook was there suckin on his tenth tube and Tight As A Fishes kept playing pocket billiards as usual with his loose change. Fair dinkum, Bazza wouldn't shut up about this sheila he said banged like a dunny door in a gale. A shingle short I've always said. Then he came the raw prawn and the yakker turned to poofs and other unsavoury prejudices. I took my cue and quietly ducked outside for a slash and pissed off home keeping a sharp eye out for the fuzz. Yair Chuck, we'll line 'em for ya anytime you're over. Find a cot for you too. No wuckers. Just givsa a hoy, boy. But you'll hafta tell us a few of your Greasy Three yarns before we tuck you up.
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That’s fine CE. (She’s jake, mate)
My interest in the 1830 is that I have occasion to run it from time to time and I’ve got a young offsider giving me a bit of stick about ‘procedure’.
If I can get him off his Play Station, I will refer him this forum and he can go figure.
But before we bang and lock the dzus, does anyone have any experience with the rope start?
IN CASES OF EMERGENCY, DC3 ENGINES CAN BE ‘ROPE STARTED’,
SHOULD THE STARTER MOTOR BE INOPERATIVE. IN CARRYING OUT THIS OPERATION, IT IS ESSENTIAL TO PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO SAFETY AND PROCEDURE AND ALWAYS START THE ENGINE TO BE ROPE STARTED, FIRST
PROCEDURE:- WITH THE APPROVED ROPE SLING ON HAND, PROCEED AS FOLLOWS:--
A) CHECK THAT IGNITION SWITCHES ARE 'OFF' AND MIXTURE CONTROL IN IDLE CUT-OFF,
B) THE ENGINE TO BE STARTED SHOULD BE TURNED OVER BY HAND, FOR FOUR AND A HALF COMPLETE TURNS (14 BLADES), TO CHECK FOR HYDRAULICING
C) PRIME ENGINE.
1) IGNITION OFF
2) MIXTURE IDLE CUT-OFF
3) THROTTLE SET (1/2 INCH ON GATE)
4) BOOSTER PUMP ON
5) WHILE THE ENGINE IS BEING TURNED BY HAND, GIVE PRIMING IN ONE SECOND BURSTS (FOUR FOR HOT AND UP TO, PERHAPS, FOURTEEN FOR COLD ENGINE)
6) BOOSTER PUMP OFF.
D) FIT ROPE SLING. PLACE END BOOT OVER ONE BLADE TIP AND ROTATE ENGINE BACK WARDS UNTIL THE FOLLOWING BLADE IS AT THE EIGHT O'CLOCK POSITION AND THEN PLACE SECOND BOOT OVER THE TIP ENSURING THAT :-
A) BOOTS CENTRALLY POSITIONED AROUND BLADE TIPS.
B) ROPES PARALLELED (NO TWISTS)
C) RUBBER SLEEVE (1) LOCATED FIRMLY AGAINST TRAILING EDGE
OF BLADE (B)
D) RUBBER SLEEVE (2) LOCATED ABOUT 2 FT. FROM LEADING EDGE
OF BLADE (B)
LAY OUT REST OF ROPE IN STRAIGHT LINE TOWARDS THE PORT OF THE AIRCRAFT.
YOU ARE NOW READY TO START, TO CHECK 'All CLEAR' DOOR SHUT, STEPS AWAY ETC.
WITH THE PILOT IN THE COCKPIT, MAN THE ROPE WITH, PERHAPS, THREE PEOPLE PLACED COMFORTABLY HOLDING THE ROPE WITH A SLIGHT SAG IN THE MIDDLE,
THE PILOT NOW SWITCHES IGNITION 'ON', BOOSTER PUMP 'ON' AND, AT A GIVEN SIGNAL THE ROPE 1S PULLED THROUGH WITH A JERK AND, IMMEDIATELY THE ENGINE FIRES THE PILOT OPENS THE MIXTURE CONTROL AND FLICKS THE PRIMING SWITCH IF NECESSARY.
SHOULD THE ENGINE NOT START ON FIRST PULL, REPEAT PROCEDURES FROM D)
ENSURING THE IGNITION SWITCHES ARE 'OFF' WHILE THE PROPELLER IS BEING HANDLED.
CAUTION:- TO AVOID POSSIBLE FLOODING ETC.; RETURN MIXTURE CONTROL TO ‘IDLE CUT-OFF’ AND SWITCH OFF BOOSTER, AS SOON AS IT IS REALIZED THAT THE ENGINE HAS NOT STARTED.
My interest in the 1830 is that I have occasion to run it from time to time and I’ve got a young offsider giving me a bit of stick about ‘procedure’.
If I can get him off his Play Station, I will refer him this forum and he can go figure.
But before we bang and lock the dzus, does anyone have any experience with the rope start?
IN CASES OF EMERGENCY, DC3 ENGINES CAN BE ‘ROPE STARTED’,
SHOULD THE STARTER MOTOR BE INOPERATIVE. IN CARRYING OUT THIS OPERATION, IT IS ESSENTIAL TO PAY PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO SAFETY AND PROCEDURE AND ALWAYS START THE ENGINE TO BE ROPE STARTED, FIRST
PROCEDURE:- WITH THE APPROVED ROPE SLING ON HAND, PROCEED AS FOLLOWS:--
A) CHECK THAT IGNITION SWITCHES ARE 'OFF' AND MIXTURE CONTROL IN IDLE CUT-OFF,
B) THE ENGINE TO BE STARTED SHOULD BE TURNED OVER BY HAND, FOR FOUR AND A HALF COMPLETE TURNS (14 BLADES), TO CHECK FOR HYDRAULICING
C) PRIME ENGINE.
1) IGNITION OFF
2) MIXTURE IDLE CUT-OFF
3) THROTTLE SET (1/2 INCH ON GATE)
4) BOOSTER PUMP ON
5) WHILE THE ENGINE IS BEING TURNED BY HAND, GIVE PRIMING IN ONE SECOND BURSTS (FOUR FOR HOT AND UP TO, PERHAPS, FOURTEEN FOR COLD ENGINE)
6) BOOSTER PUMP OFF.
D) FIT ROPE SLING. PLACE END BOOT OVER ONE BLADE TIP AND ROTATE ENGINE BACK WARDS UNTIL THE FOLLOWING BLADE IS AT THE EIGHT O'CLOCK POSITION AND THEN PLACE SECOND BOOT OVER THE TIP ENSURING THAT :-
A) BOOTS CENTRALLY POSITIONED AROUND BLADE TIPS.
B) ROPES PARALLELED (NO TWISTS)
C) RUBBER SLEEVE (1) LOCATED FIRMLY AGAINST TRAILING EDGE
OF BLADE (B)
D) RUBBER SLEEVE (2) LOCATED ABOUT 2 FT. FROM LEADING EDGE
OF BLADE (B)
LAY OUT REST OF ROPE IN STRAIGHT LINE TOWARDS THE PORT OF THE AIRCRAFT.
YOU ARE NOW READY TO START, TO CHECK 'All CLEAR' DOOR SHUT, STEPS AWAY ETC.
WITH THE PILOT IN THE COCKPIT, MAN THE ROPE WITH, PERHAPS, THREE PEOPLE PLACED COMFORTABLY HOLDING THE ROPE WITH A SLIGHT SAG IN THE MIDDLE,
THE PILOT NOW SWITCHES IGNITION 'ON', BOOSTER PUMP 'ON' AND, AT A GIVEN SIGNAL THE ROPE 1S PULLED THROUGH WITH A JERK AND, IMMEDIATELY THE ENGINE FIRES THE PILOT OPENS THE MIXTURE CONTROL AND FLICKS THE PRIMING SWITCH IF NECESSARY.
SHOULD THE ENGINE NOT START ON FIRST PULL, REPEAT PROCEDURES FROM D)
ENSURING THE IGNITION SWITCHES ARE 'OFF' WHILE THE PROPELLER IS BEING HANDLED.
CAUTION:- TO AVOID POSSIBLE FLOODING ETC.; RETURN MIXTURE CONTROL TO ‘IDLE CUT-OFF’ AND SWITCH OFF BOOSTER, AS SOON AS IT IS REALIZED THAT THE ENGINE HAS NOT STARTED.
Never did it that way. Once got desperate and wound a few turns of some webbing strap around the prop dome and tied it to a Land Rover. It probably didn't do the crank any good, but we got out of there (Baker Lake in Canada I seem to recall).
Again a similar story but at Bairnsdale in Eastern Victoria many years ago, but without the rope.
At the end of a 5 minute stop, we found the starter on the right engine had failed.The old captain had obviously had this happen previously and the outcome was that after having the engine suitably primed and pulled through, myself and two of the passengers pulled the prop through about one blade and she started readily but slowly.
The three of us just walked away, pulling the prop as we walked away with hands joined to ensure that if anything went wrong the person holding the prop would be pulled away.
Now I am much older and wiser.
Blackburn
At the end of a 5 minute stop, we found the starter on the right engine had failed.The old captain had obviously had this happen previously and the outcome was that after having the engine suitably primed and pulled through, myself and two of the passengers pulled the prop through about one blade and she started readily but slowly.
The three of us just walked away, pulling the prop as we walked away with hands joined to ensure that if anything went wrong the person holding the prop would be pulled away.
Now I am much older and wiser.
Blackburn
last flight for pax in UK 2007
hi there
i flew as pax from key west to miami over the florida keys in about 1980 which was so nostalgic,
taking off from a warm evening in a palm tree swaying little airport in a DC3 i felt like ingrid bergman LOL!!!
then last summer here in the uK it was possible to take pleasure flights from various airports around the uk where the dc3 used to be historically connected with in abig way,
such as southend, newquay, jersey, bournemouth, coventry and many more,
i took 2 flights from newquay (RAF st mawgan) up and over the stunning north cornwall coast,
amazing stuff,
best thread on here for ages
thanks
ps im have some great pics of the day in the DC3 which is painted in RAF transport command livery but i dont know how to do it yet here so bear with me....
i flew as pax from key west to miami over the florida keys in about 1980 which was so nostalgic,
taking off from a warm evening in a palm tree swaying little airport in a DC3 i felt like ingrid bergman LOL!!!
then last summer here in the uK it was possible to take pleasure flights from various airports around the uk where the dc3 used to be historically connected with in abig way,
such as southend, newquay, jersey, bournemouth, coventry and many more,
i took 2 flights from newquay (RAF st mawgan) up and over the stunning north cornwall coast,
amazing stuff,
best thread on here for ages
thanks
ps im have some great pics of the day in the DC3 which is painted in RAF transport command livery but i dont know how to do it yet here so bear with me....
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You are so correct. In all my travels and working on the dak it seems that the prime first method is used far less than the new method of engaging the mixture with mags already on etc.
Personally i dont like this method as its open to hyd lock damage etc.
Throttle 1/2" set.
Forefinger; starter
3 blades tickle prime with mid finger etc through 6 and 9.
Hold down prime, mags on, tinker with throttle and engage mixture whilst releasing the prime. Back onto throttle and away she goes.
This is with a cold engine and prime into carb not cyl heads.
I remember once being stuck down route and the prime solenoid had gone tech. I lay on my belly over the nacelle and on 3,6,9 blades i chucked a small amount of fuel into the intake with a maxpac cup. Not much clearance from the prop and lucky we had the throttle set correct or my eye brows would have been long gone. So many great stories and memories flooding back, I sound like an old man not 33!! Keep um coming.
Personally i dont like this method as its open to hyd lock damage etc.
Throttle 1/2" set.
Forefinger; starter
3 blades tickle prime with mid finger etc through 6 and 9.
Hold down prime, mags on, tinker with throttle and engage mixture whilst releasing the prime. Back onto throttle and away she goes.
This is with a cold engine and prime into carb not cyl heads.
I remember once being stuck down route and the prime solenoid had gone tech. I lay on my belly over the nacelle and on 3,6,9 blades i chucked a small amount of fuel into the intake with a maxpac cup. Not much clearance from the prop and lucky we had the throttle set correct or my eye brows would have been long gone. So many great stories and memories flooding back, I sound like an old man not 33!! Keep um coming.
Last edited by 1830; 20th Jan 2009 at 13:57.
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Aaahhh, the loss of starter problem.
That is really no big deal all you need is some rope and know how to wrap it around the prop dome.
Best done on snow with at least one Eskimo to give it the first little rotation and let the Ski Doo do the rest.
If all you keeners are interested do you want me to tell you how I started a Beech 18 on floats with a rope one time when I was all by my self on a northern Quebec lake?
That is really no big deal all you need is some rope and know how to wrap it around the prop dome.
Best done on snow with at least one Eskimo to give it the first little rotation and let the Ski Doo do the rest.
If all you keeners are interested do you want me to tell you how I started a Beech 18 on floats with a rope one time when I was all by my self on a northern Quebec lake?
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A37575
Thanks for the probable true circumstances surrounding the DC4 incident. The truth would be somewhat clouded as the raconteur (Capt. B. B.) slagged Forgie as most opportunities over some earlier misdemeanour, and it appears it cost Forgie his job as well as F/O Thomas. It would be interesting to know if Capt Thomas was still with us. Forgie certainly isn't.
I spent quite a few overnights at the old RAAF mess on Manus (Momote) in the 70s & 80s. Our only recreation being drinking the aircraft's bar and hunting coconut crabs!
I spent quite a few overnights at the old RAAF mess on Manus (Momote) in the 70s & 80s. Our only recreation being drinking the aircraft's bar and hunting coconut crabs!
Last edited by sundaun; 20th Jan 2009 at 23:54.
If all you keeners are interested do you want me to tell you how I started a Beech 18 on floats with a rope one time when I was all by my self on a northern Quebec lake?
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Let it rip, Chuck. You can rest assured that anything said on this forum, stays in this forum.
In the meantime, a true story. It was back in the 50s and the inaugural TAA DC3 flight from Melbourne to Launceston. On board were Launceston business leaders, the mayor, local dignitaries, the press and a couple TAA heavies, all freeloaders.
Half way across the Straight, there’s this loud bang from the R engine. The FO looks back and confirms it is not looking good, there’s a large quantity of oil streaming back across the cowling. The Capt, the same time as leaning across the FO to sight the damage, reaches up and punches the feather button … the engine fails to feather…but the L one did. Quick as a flash he realises his error and with hands dancing around the cockpit like Fred Astaire, he simultaneously unfeathers the L, feathers and secures the R.
The passengers, all focused on the R engine, were completely unaware of the L prop’s feathering cycle and nothing untoward was ever said or reported.
It was the FO’s first flight following his line clearance and for the next 20 or so years, anytime he met the Capt and there was a bar handy, the FO said the Capt was always good for 3 or 4 beers.
Possibly another good reason for feathering before shutting down. Quick and easy to recover if wrong one.
In the meantime, a true story. It was back in the 50s and the inaugural TAA DC3 flight from Melbourne to Launceston. On board were Launceston business leaders, the mayor, local dignitaries, the press and a couple TAA heavies, all freeloaders.
Half way across the Straight, there’s this loud bang from the R engine. The FO looks back and confirms it is not looking good, there’s a large quantity of oil streaming back across the cowling. The Capt, the same time as leaning across the FO to sight the damage, reaches up and punches the feather button … the engine fails to feather…but the L one did. Quick as a flash he realises his error and with hands dancing around the cockpit like Fred Astaire, he simultaneously unfeathers the L, feathers and secures the R.
The passengers, all focused on the R engine, were completely unaware of the L prop’s feathering cycle and nothing untoward was ever said or reported.
It was the FO’s first flight following his line clearance and for the next 20 or so years, anytime he met the Capt and there was a bar handy, the FO said the Capt was always good for 3 or 4 beers.
Possibly another good reason for feathering before shutting down. Quick and easy to recover if wrong one.