Wyndham Aviation.....Charming? (Not)
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I would not say that Sunfish has been misinformed.
He is just one of many city people that draws conclusions from media reports about the aboriginal situation. He has obviously (unlike many others here) not experienced the Kimberely or an aboriginal community for himself.
I find it is the people in large cities that often have such a sympathetic view towards the aboriginal plight and yet most have never even had a conversation with an aboriginal in their life! The top end is another world and unless you have experienced it people in cities just dont know what really goes on.
He is just one of many city people that draws conclusions from media reports about the aboriginal situation. He has obviously (unlike many others here) not experienced the Kimberely or an aboriginal community for himself.
I find it is the people in large cities that often have such a sympathetic view towards the aboriginal plight and yet most have never even had a conversation with an aboriginal in their life! The top end is another world and unless you have experienced it people in cities just dont know what really goes on.
Checkerboard.......
Hear hear
My experience with the 'problem' was gained in C310s with SAATAS out of Darwin to all ports north on Bathurst and Melville on Saturday afternoons. I then (so-called) graduated to DH114s with Connair more or less doing the same thing.
Having a very drunk 'guest' spewing on me while doing the trim sheet at BTI one afternoon certainly 'cemented' the indelible memory for me of the not-so-fun situations and unhappy memories of booze runs in 'paradise'..............NOT.
It wasn't pretty!
Hear hear
My experience with the 'problem' was gained in C310s with SAATAS out of Darwin to all ports north on Bathurst and Melville on Saturday afternoons. I then (so-called) graduated to DH114s with Connair more or less doing the same thing.
Having a very drunk 'guest' spewing on me while doing the trim sheet at BTI one afternoon certainly 'cemented' the indelible memory for me of the not-so-fun situations and unhappy memories of booze runs in 'paradise'..............NOT.
It wasn't pretty!
Checkerboard i reckon you're pretty right there mate.
There are so many complex issues in regard to the Aboriginal communities up North, especially when it comes to drinks! In this case what should be done? If the community has "self determined" that they want booze, then isn't that their call? The alternative would be paternalism, and we know how that went over last time!
I had all the problems solved in my first month up there. Then at the three month mark i wasn't so sure anymore. By six months i knew, i knew nothing.
These blokes at Wyndham Aviation probably didn't feel so great about flying booze, but they are not responsible for the actions of the adults that bought it!
Cheers
There are so many complex issues in regard to the Aboriginal communities up North, especially when it comes to drinks! In this case what should be done? If the community has "self determined" that they want booze, then isn't that their call? The alternative would be paternalism, and we know how that went over last time!
I had all the problems solved in my first month up there. Then at the three month mark i wasn't so sure anymore. By six months i knew, i knew nothing.
These blokes at Wyndham Aviation probably didn't feel so great about flying booze, but they are not responsible for the actions of the adults that bought it!
Cheers
No they are not responsible but they sure as hell provided a f*cking market didnt they!
Lucky the mainstream population doesn't read this horsesh*t because I'm embarrassed by the "can of worms/its so complex" attitude.
Every last one of you who has dealt with these communities knows the absolute catastrophe alcohol has been for these people.
Hell who gives a sh*t, in a year I'll have my jet job eh?
Lucky the mainstream population doesn't read this horsesh*t because I'm embarrassed by the "can of worms/its so complex" attitude.
Every last one of you who has dealt with these communities knows the absolute catastrophe alcohol has been for these people.
Hell who gives a sh*t, in a year I'll have my jet job eh?
Last edited by Fred Gassit; 14th Jun 2008 at 17:31. Reason: spelt catastrophe wrong
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Opportunist abound everywhere in every field. Aviation is just another form of transport into places as being discussed here. The grog problem at indigenous communities stems from two fundamental things. The white man who came & changed the aboriginals way of life many years ago (whether they wanted it or not) & therefore introducing the ways of at the time modern civilization and the fact that isolation & the ability to not be able to similate into the white mans way of life has given these people little reason to do anything else and has left us (white fellas) with an unsolvable problem of which aviation is just part of it. Fix the core problem (if at all possible) & then discussions like this wouldn't exist.
Am sure the use of planes has been used many times for the transportation of booze into areas where it's not allowed but does prosecution eradicate that problem? I doubt it but 'Fred G' is right, we are responsible for what we created in the first place to some degree.
Personal opinions only as always
CW
Am sure the use of planes has been used many times for the transportation of booze into areas where it's not allowed but does prosecution eradicate that problem? I doubt it but 'Fred G' is right, we are responsible for what we created in the first place to some degree.
Personal opinions only as always
CW
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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So Mr Gassit, are you suggesting that the Pilots should be making decisions with the welfare of these people in mind?. Get real. they are paid to fly the aircraft that the Aboriginal people CHARTER.... not try and change the existing culture and mindset of these people.
It IS a complex problem, and certainly nothing pilots or charter companies wish to IMPOSE on them, will change anything other than the mode of transport............ so your last statement,
Is exactly what the pilots should be thinking.
And who are we to tell them they cannot drink???, whilst we provide them with the income, and protection of the law to do so?. They are a self determining people, and are free to do as they wish, and it is legislated for them to do so.
Pilots fly aircraft, Not make government policy. People paying for a service should not be questioned or limited in the service provided, as long as it is lawful, regardless of the skin colour.
Governments make rules that govern the babysitting process.
I certainly dont remember creating this problem. and feel absolutely no responsibility for it.
It IS a complex problem, and certainly nothing pilots or charter companies wish to IMPOSE on them, will change anything other than the mode of transport............ so your last statement,
Hell who gives a sh*t, in a year I'll have my jet job eh?
Every last one of you who has dealt with these communities knows the absolute catastrophe alcohol has been for these people.
Pilots fly aircraft, Not make government policy. People paying for a service should not be questioned or limited in the service provided, as long as it is lawful, regardless of the skin colour.
Governments make rules that govern the babysitting process.
we are responsible for what we created in the first place to some degree.
Thanks for the back up W, was up too late last night and probably used harsher language than I intended but I stand by the sentiment and we have to take some responsibility for what happens.
I dont envy young operators being put in that position as they have for so long (especially the ones bothered by this practice)
I dont envy young operators being put in that position as they have for so long (especially the ones bothered by this practice)
Thread Starter
First of all, the information I posted comes from the Australian, it relates to a evidence presented at a Coroners Court and it is in the public domain.
To those who posted regarding the holding of bank cards and PIN numbers by charter companies, thank you for explaining the logic and necessity of this practice. You might try and tell the Australian or the Coroner about this as well, because "The Australian" article implies, in my opinion, that it was done for an immoral purpose.
Contrary to suggestions here, I am no stranger to the problems of Aboriginal communities and have spent considerable time around the top end over the years and I've seen (but thank God haven't lived in) quite a few from Doomadgee to Fitzroy Crossing. I also thought that the warning "watch out for the empty flagons" on the Tanami track was a joke, until I saw otherwise.
I know alcohol and Aborigines is regarded as a "complex problem" by some, but I understand that "dry" communities are generally happier, and the legislation regarding the bringing of alcohol into them is pretty tough. If Oomby isn't dry, then poor Oombi.
What pisses me off are the "White Enablers" of a lot of these problems, like the pub in Katherine selling wine casks straight off the pallet.
...And if any of you top end pilots fall into that category, shame on you.
To those who posted regarding the holding of bank cards and PIN numbers by charter companies, thank you for explaining the logic and necessity of this practice. You might try and tell the Australian or the Coroner about this as well, because "The Australian" article implies, in my opinion, that it was done for an immoral purpose.
Contrary to suggestions here, I am no stranger to the problems of Aboriginal communities and have spent considerable time around the top end over the years and I've seen (but thank God haven't lived in) quite a few from Doomadgee to Fitzroy Crossing. I also thought that the warning "watch out for the empty flagons" on the Tanami track was a joke, until I saw otherwise.
I know alcohol and Aborigines is regarded as a "complex problem" by some, but I understand that "dry" communities are generally happier, and the legislation regarding the bringing of alcohol into them is pretty tough. If Oomby isn't dry, then poor Oombi.
What pisses me off are the "White Enablers" of a lot of these problems, like the pub in Katherine selling wine casks straight off the pallet.
...And if any of you top end pilots fall into that category, shame on you.
Should pilot's feel guilty then for flying in the garbage food for the community stores, seeing as obesity and diabetes is such a massive problem?
Should pilot's feel guilty for flying passengers to certain Asian destinations because they may be exploiting people in the illegal sex trades?
etc, etc...
As wiz wrote, I get paid to fly an aeroplane within the law. I have flown grog into "wet" communities. I have refused to fly, and involved police when necessary, passengers trying to take grog into their "dry" communites. I have seen many keycards kept to pay for flights (only). I sleep really well at night.
Should pilot's feel guilty for flying passengers to certain Asian destinations because they may be exploiting people in the illegal sex trades?
etc, etc...
As wiz wrote, I get paid to fly an aeroplane within the law. I have flown grog into "wet" communities. I have refused to fly, and involved police when necessary, passengers trying to take grog into their "dry" communites. I have seen many keycards kept to pay for flights (only). I sleep really well at night.
Silly Old Git
I've seen (but thank God haven't lived in) quite a few from Doomadgee to Fitzroy Crossing.
Nullanullas the works
An old drunken bat screeched at me "PONE DA PUKIM POLISE!"
I said do I look like pukim pone box?
Ya just gotta love 'em
2008...RUDDS Closing The Gat....er....Gap
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The "problem" of companies holding debit cards and pin numbers is well known to the banking industry. A few years ago I was working for a company that organised a charter for a mob of about 30 quite high ranking people from the banking and finance industry from Alice Springs to Aryeonga so they could see the practice in action.
Very thoughtful mob on their return as the vast majority had never been to Central Australia before let alone an Aboriginal community. I think some thought a remote area was south western suburbs of Sydney.
I worked for a company in 2000 that kept debit cards and pin numbers for unpaid charters. Every morning we would swipe the card until the debt was paid and then return it when next we saw the passenger. I was told of one company whose owner had a card reader at his house and would swipe them when he woke so as to beat any person who may have had another card. The practice was common. We only used it to pay for charter flights though.
Very thoughtful mob on their return as the vast majority had never been to Central Australia before let alone an Aboriginal community. I think some thought a remote area was south western suburbs of Sydney.
I worked for a company in 2000 that kept debit cards and pin numbers for unpaid charters. Every morning we would swipe the card until the debt was paid and then return it when next we saw the passenger. I was told of one company whose owner had a card reader at his house and would swipe them when he woke so as to beat any person who may have had another card. The practice was common. We only used it to pay for charter flights though.
Silly Old Git
"White enablers"???
Sunfish ol sport
a long long time ago I worked in the bottle shop in a town... ah, shall we say "similar" to the one under discussion.
Yeah OK I worked at Vaggy's.... it was a good job and a good education 
Oombi then was a dry community and the president of the community council made it very, very clear that any air charter company caught bringing booze into the community would be banned from Oombi forever.
That made life very difficult for Ord Air (as was), being the closest provider of transport to the closest source of booze. The pilots and staff of Ord were very dilligent in ensuring that no grog got on the planes.
The president, meanwhile, brought his boat into town, it was loaded up to the gunwhales, and he set sail back up the mighty Forrest River with his monopoly unmolested by the Yankee Capitalist Sky Pirates you so deplore
I went up the Kimberley straight from Uni with stars in my eyes and my (bleeding) heart on my sleeve.
I returned with my eyes wiiiiide open, scars inflicted by those I tried to help, and a tale my Sydney acquaintences wouldn't believe.
Too many shades of grey in this world for judgements & moral outrage
a long long time ago I worked in the bottle shop in a town... ah, shall we say "similar" to the one under discussion.
Yeah OK I worked at Vaggy's.... it was a good job
and a good education Oombi then was a dry community and the president of the community council made it very, very clear that any air charter company caught bringing booze into the community would be banned from Oombi forever.
That made life very difficult for Ord Air (as was), being the closest provider of transport to the closest source of booze. The pilots and staff of Ord were very dilligent in ensuring that no grog got on the planes.
The president, meanwhile, brought his boat into town, it was loaded up to the gunwhales, and he set sail back up the mighty Forrest River with his monopoly unmolested by the Yankee Capitalist Sky Pirates you so deplore
I went up the Kimberley straight from Uni with stars in my eyes and my (bleeding) heart on my sleeve.
I returned with my eyes wiiiiide open, scars inflicted by those I tried to help, and a tale my Sydney acquaintences wouldn't believe.
Too many shades of grey in this world for judgements & moral outrage
Last edited by Horatio Leafblower; 15th Jun 2008 at 10:08.
well haven't times changed. back in my day you wouldn't be caught dead not flying a 206 pod load of VB in and a load of turtle meat or something else out and about 20% overweight with the CoG off the page.
good character building stuff that seems to be lost on the current crop, shame.
good character building stuff that seems to be lost on the current crop, shame.
Last edited by hoss; 15th Jun 2008 at 10:58. Reason: because a mtow of 1633kg just isn't enough.
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rutan around
Alcohol is allowed in Hooker Creek provided you have a permit. They have one of the better systems. Anybody can obtain a permit-black white or brindle so there can be no accusations of discrimination. If anyone commits an offence involving alcohol they lose their permit.It seems to work.Perhaps other communities should copy instead of having a different set of rules for every place you go.
It always amazes me how sidewalk "experts" know that a plane is overloaded. They must know the weight of the cargo the pilot the px's the fuel and the empty aircraft. For the benefit of P-pruners not familiar with the Wyndham area a return trip to Oombie is about 20 minutes.A C210 or C206 would need to carry less than 90 litres of fuel. It would probably run out of room before it reached gross weight.
I have been visiting these hell hole Aboriginal Concentration Camps for more than 10 years now. If I lived in those conditions and was as bored as they are I'd drink too. Governments should remember that repeatedly doing things the same way and expecting a different result is the first sign of madness.
It always amazes me how sidewalk "experts" know that a plane is overloaded. They must know the weight of the cargo the pilot the px's the fuel and the empty aircraft. For the benefit of P-pruners not familiar with the Wyndham area a return trip to Oombie is about 20 minutes.A C210 or C206 would need to carry less than 90 litres of fuel. It would probably run out of room before it reached gross weight.
I have been visiting these hell hole Aboriginal Concentration Camps for more than 10 years now. If I lived in those conditions and was as bored as they are I'd drink too. Governments should remember that repeatedly doing things the same way and expecting a different result is the first sign of madness.
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in my opinion, that it was done for an immoral purpose
like the pub in Katherine selling wine casks straight off the pallet.
No-one is forcing people to buy anything. If Australian citizens choose to live in that way and I'm glad that they have the choice to live in that manner. Have you ever thought that they may enjoy their lifestyle?
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Again this topic has been done to death.
What has ethics got to do with flying a plane (or aircraft for the fanatical)? Seems to me the pilots did their job well under trying conditions. Their only responsibility is to get the pax and freight safely from A to B, everything else being legal of course.
As for the social problems – well we can thank our elected officials for doing the job we pay them to do. That is to keep the problem swept under the carpet with welfare payments and preferential treatment so we can sleep better at night.
The only solution starts with abolishing any welfare (by some transitional means) and integrating the aboriginal population by recognising them as just Australians of aboriginal descent. No different to you or me. Until this happens we’ll be reading articles like this in the paper for decades to come – that’s if there are any “indigenous brethren” left.
What has ethics got to do with flying a plane (or aircraft for the fanatical)? Seems to me the pilots did their job well under trying conditions. Their only responsibility is to get the pax and freight safely from A to B, everything else being legal of course.
As for the social problems – well we can thank our elected officials for doing the job we pay them to do. That is to keep the problem swept under the carpet with welfare payments and preferential treatment so we can sleep better at night.
The only solution starts with abolishing any welfare (by some transitional means) and integrating the aboriginal population by recognising them as just Australians of aboriginal descent. No different to you or me. Until this happens we’ll be reading articles like this in the paper for decades to come – that’s if there are any “indigenous brethren” left.
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They are a self determining people
The pilot is no more responsible for misuse of alcohol in this location than the truckie is in Brisbane, Melbourne etc.
And FWIW, while I have no answers to the problems discussed here, I suspect they might start with a bit of self respect and self reliance....just a question of how to introduce those concepts into a 3rd and 4th generation Welfare society....?
