Is ASIC killing off GA PPL?
Thread Starter
CC, valid point. Disposable income and the attractions to spend it on. It amazes me that there can be thousands of people who will visit an airshow as a spectical. Last November, got to see the Red Bull mob in action, along with thousands of other people. Yet, an infinitely small number actually want to have a go at it.
Out of twenty mad dirt bike mates. Guys that would pull some amazing stunts on two wheels (or one) jump off anything that had half a chance of air time, nearly all of them would go cold on the mention of flying. Only two ever took me up on going for a flight with me...no, it had nothing to do with the way I used to ride my bike. One mate has nearly been killed twice on two wheels yet balks at the idea of getting into anything smaller than a RPT jet or anything less than two engines. Standard line, "Too dangerous, mate!" Go figure!
However, I just think it too coincidental that with the coming of the requirment for ASIC also results in a downturn in PPL numbers.
Out of twenty mad dirt bike mates. Guys that would pull some amazing stunts on two wheels (or one) jump off anything that had half a chance of air time, nearly all of them would go cold on the mention of flying. Only two ever took me up on going for a flight with me...no, it had nothing to do with the way I used to ride my bike. One mate has nearly been killed twice on two wheels yet balks at the idea of getting into anything smaller than a RPT jet or anything less than two engines. Standard line, "Too dangerous, mate!" Go figure!
However, I just think it too coincidental that with the coming of the requirment for ASIC also results in a downturn in PPL numbers.
Sooo... looks like osama the bads mates here in Oz arnt all that interested in aircraft - aparently it is football games and railway stations that are all the rage at the moment.
The forecast is a nine month trial
Will we need ASICs to attend footy ?
Well done to the people who niped this bomb plot in the bud
A HOME-GROWN Muslim terror group bent on violent jihad aimed to bomb football grounds and train stations to inflict maximum loss of life, a jury heard yesterday.
The forecast is a nine month trial
Will we need ASICs to attend footy ?
Well done to the people who niped this bomb plot in the bud
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 13th Feb 2008 at 23:32. Reason: add quote
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The ASIC is a peculiarly Australian solution to a problem that the rest of the world doesn't seem to have (or perhaps can be bothered with)
When will Australians wake up and realise they live in one of the most over-regulated societies in the world? A Czech friend of mine who ran away from Big Brother in the '70s says it really concerns him that Australians aren't so very far away from being as 'free' as the Communist bloc countries of that era.
Rise up and protest!
When will Australians wake up and realise they live in one of the most over-regulated societies in the world? A Czech friend of mine who ran away from Big Brother in the '70s says it really concerns him that Australians aren't so very far away from being as 'free' as the Communist bloc countries of that era.
Rise up and protest!
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But Islander Jock, the ASIC is killing off GA.
I didn't renew my short-lived ASIC because I object to being assumed that I am a criminal and treated as such if I don't show an ASIC at a so-called 'security-controlled' airport.
My flying nowadays is a heck of a lot less than before, because the places that don't require an ASIC often don't have facilities (ie a loo, food and more importantly fuel).
So, I'm not renting aircaft as often, I'm not buying much fuel and I'm not paying much in landing fees.
I do understand the point of requiring an ASIC at places such as YMML or YSSY, but at Birdsville or Karumba where the biggest threat to RPT are the kangaroos and/or cockatoos ?
The tens of millions of $ spend on 'security' fencing, signposting, remote surveillence, roving inspectors and bueauracy has largely been wasted to serve political ends.
An ASIC is meaningless for GA.
I mean., just how much security checking is being done if an ASIC can be received, processed, produced and disbursed all in a matter of days ?
It obviously means that the spooks haven't enough time to talk to my neighbours, work collegues, friends, etc to background check me,
meaning that if I haven't already come to the attention of the authorities in some way, then the ASIC checks are just a simple trawl through existing historical (electronic) records.
ie. it is purely security 'theater' that was put in place to placate the masses by the previous administration and which is still enforced by the present one.
Look at the last ASIO report to Parliament, they did around 100000 ASIC and MSIC checks and barely found a handfull that required extra checking and none were actually refused.
I'm not saying that there should be no security checking, but lets spend the money and effort in areas that are not simply high-visibility and security-theatre oriented.
I didn't renew my short-lived ASIC because I object to being assumed that I am a criminal and treated as such if I don't show an ASIC at a so-called 'security-controlled' airport.
My flying nowadays is a heck of a lot less than before, because the places that don't require an ASIC often don't have facilities (ie a loo, food and more importantly fuel).
So, I'm not renting aircaft as often, I'm not buying much fuel and I'm not paying much in landing fees.
I do understand the point of requiring an ASIC at places such as YMML or YSSY, but at Birdsville or Karumba where the biggest threat to RPT are the kangaroos and/or cockatoos ?
The tens of millions of $ spend on 'security' fencing, signposting, remote surveillence, roving inspectors and bueauracy has largely been wasted to serve political ends.
An ASIC is meaningless for GA.
I mean., just how much security checking is being done if an ASIC can be received, processed, produced and disbursed all in a matter of days ?
It obviously means that the spooks haven't enough time to talk to my neighbours, work collegues, friends, etc to background check me,
meaning that if I haven't already come to the attention of the authorities in some way, then the ASIC checks are just a simple trawl through existing historical (electronic) records.
ie. it is purely security 'theater' that was put in place to placate the masses by the previous administration and which is still enforced by the present one.
Look at the last ASIO report to Parliament, they did around 100000 ASIC and MSIC checks and barely found a handfull that required extra checking and none were actually refused.
I'm not saying that there should be no security checking, but lets spend the money and effort in areas that are not simply high-visibility and security-theatre oriented.
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People,
We need to be a tad clearer on our stated goals here. There is no chance at all that we will be able to get rid of the ASIC. It won't happen and that's all there is to it.
However, there is a possiblity that a PPL/CPL/ATPL - having been security checked - could stand in for an ASIC. It is the duplication of checking and issuing for air crew that we may have a chance of attacking successfully. It's the old saying ... pick the fights you can win.
Step One is to play their game first. Contact your local member of parliament and demand some answers. OK, you won't get them, but you will have made them do something on the ASIC issue. It gets it in their faces. At the moment it's all but forgotten at the bureacratic level. Let's remind them.
But before you waste electons on an e-mail, read the JCPA report into airport security and its recommendations. That way you will show them that you're up-to-speed with what's (not) happening out there and not just someone having a whinge.
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committe...ty2/report.htm
Walrus
We need to be a tad clearer on our stated goals here. There is no chance at all that we will be able to get rid of the ASIC. It won't happen and that's all there is to it.
However, there is a possiblity that a PPL/CPL/ATPL - having been security checked - could stand in for an ASIC. It is the duplication of checking and issuing for air crew that we may have a chance of attacking successfully. It's the old saying ... pick the fights you can win.
Step One is to play their game first. Contact your local member of parliament and demand some answers. OK, you won't get them, but you will have made them do something on the ASIC issue. It gets it in their faces. At the moment it's all but forgotten at the bureacratic level. Let's remind them.
But before you waste electons on an e-mail, read the JCPA report into airport security and its recommendations. That way you will show them that you're up-to-speed with what's (not) happening out there and not just someone having a whinge.
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committe...ty2/report.htm
Walrus
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It's simple
Just do the checks before issueing a pilot's licence, and make sure the licence has a photo, then you do not need an ASIC. Use the licence instead of an ASIC.
Do they really issue pilot licences to people who would not qualify for an ASIC? Should they?
If you think that GA consists only of flying schools, and "weekend warriors" who go flying a few times a year on weekends, then the ASIC probably has affected this.
For the rest of GA the ASIC is just another poorly organised, annoyance that is unnecessarily complicated.
And yes, along with all the other "poorly organised, overcomplicated annoyances" it is greatly hindering the correct operation of GA in out back Australia. And these "poorly organised, unnecessarily complicated annoyances" have hindered GA for decades. People out here depend on GA. It is not just some weekend fun for silvertails.
Do they really issue pilot licences to people who would not qualify for an ASIC? Should they?
If you think that GA consists only of flying schools, and "weekend warriors" who go flying a few times a year on weekends, then the ASIC probably has affected this.
For the rest of GA the ASIC is just another poorly organised, annoyance that is unnecessarily complicated.
And yes, along with all the other "poorly organised, overcomplicated annoyances" it is greatly hindering the correct operation of GA in out back Australia. And these "poorly organised, unnecessarily complicated annoyances" have hindered GA for decades. People out here depend on GA. It is not just some weekend fun for silvertails.
Last edited by bushy; 14th Feb 2008 at 01:46.
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Walrus ,
very well put and just to reiterate what I would consider a very important point
very well put and just to reiterate what I would consider a very important point
show them that you're up-to-speed with what's (not) happening out there and not just someone having a whinge.
Walrus,
I disagree with that statement.
Remember, the ASIC came about around the time of Oz troops being sent to Iraq - there was a lot of hysteria and a different mindset at the time.
There is now a new Government in Oz that has a different veiw about Iraq
...and perhaps a different view about Oz citizins being treated as criminals needing background checks.
I think the current court case with the footy bombers clearly demonstrait that the bad guys are not aviation focused, their target is not aviation as such, but public mayhem. To use the ASIC concept to control such things would require all Australians to have one.
There is no chance at all that we will be able to get rid of the ASIC.
Remember, the ASIC came about around the time of Oz troops being sent to Iraq - there was a lot of hysteria and a different mindset at the time.
There is now a new Government in Oz that has a different veiw about Iraq
...and perhaps a different view about Oz citizins being treated as criminals needing background checks.
I think the current court case with the footy bombers clearly demonstrait that the bad guys are not aviation focused, their target is not aviation as such, but public mayhem. To use the ASIC concept to control such things would require all Australians to have one.
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FB,
Yes, the Rudd government is taking a whole new stance on Iraq, but that's an issue that a lot of people in Australia feel very strongly about and it has a lot of votes behind it. The ASIC issue doesn't carry the electoral threat that Iraq does.
I actually agree with ASICs for ground staff and contractors, because unless I am wrong, they have no other form of background check done. I'm not sure we should be asking for the ASIC to be abolished, only applied with a lot more commonsense.
Also, DOTARS will be listening very closely to the AFP and ASIS/ASIO on this matter, and I suspect the pollies won't be in a hurry to go against their advice. This will be one of our biggest hurdles and I don't think we'll ever get over it if we try to have the ASIC abolished en-masse.
Walrus
Yes, the Rudd government is taking a whole new stance on Iraq, but that's an issue that a lot of people in Australia feel very strongly about and it has a lot of votes behind it. The ASIC issue doesn't carry the electoral threat that Iraq does.
I actually agree with ASICs for ground staff and contractors, because unless I am wrong, they have no other form of background check done. I'm not sure we should be asking for the ASIC to be abolished, only applied with a lot more commonsense.
Also, DOTARS will be listening very closely to the AFP and ASIS/ASIO on this matter, and I suspect the pollies won't be in a hurry to go against their advice. This will be one of our biggest hurdles and I don't think we'll ever get over it if we try to have the ASIC abolished en-masse.
Walrus
As an RAA pilot I rather enjoy the freedom of flying modern aircraft upwards of 200 kt for little money.
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king_daniels
Kindly edit your post above please..... the way you have produced that it looks like those were comments made by me, and they were not. they are in fact words from Bendo.
And just to be technically correct, RAA pilots almost have the same privileges as a GA PPL or higher, and until they get certain bits of legislation through the bits like CTA and above 5000' are still not legal, unless certain criteria are met. Currently that is but not limited to a "PPL with Nil Airspace restrictions" (some PPL holders are not endorsed for CTA also) and carry the appropriate approved equipment etc.
As for flying into a GAAP zone on a RAA licence only at present, I think you bent the rules just a tad more than you should have.......I hope the CASA boys are not reading this.
Maybe someone who ACTUALLY knows whether GAAP is requiring CTA endorsement or not. I may be wrong
.
As for 200 knots.......I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and say that muct be a typo for 100 knots, otherwise I have to side with Trojan here!
Anyway glad to see you are passionate about your flying and trust you enjoy it and do it by the rules and safely!
J
J
Kindly edit your post above please..... the way you have produced that it looks like those were comments made by me, and they were not. they are in fact words from Bendo.
And just to be technically correct, RAA pilots almost have the same privileges as a GA PPL or higher, and until they get certain bits of legislation through the bits like CTA and above 5000' are still not legal, unless certain criteria are met. Currently that is but not limited to a "PPL with Nil Airspace restrictions" (some PPL holders are not endorsed for CTA also) and carry the appropriate approved equipment etc.
As for flying into a GAAP zone on a RAA licence only at present, I think you bent the rules just a tad more than you should have.......I hope the CASA boys are not reading this.
Maybe someone who ACTUALLY knows whether GAAP is requiring CTA endorsement or not. I may be wrong
.As for 200 knots.......I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and say that muct be a typo for 100 knots, otherwise I have to side with Trojan here!
Anyway glad to see you are passionate about your flying and trust you enjoy it and do it by the rules and safely!
J
J
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Not hard for osama the bad guy to work out when best to enter the airport.
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King_Daniels your post is extraordinarily similar to one that was posted on another Recreational Flying forum some time ago at another website that PPruners dont like to visit. If that was you, I note that it was pointed out to you that to enter a GAAP airfield you need a PPL in your RAAus bugsmasher. If you don't hold a PPL then you have broken the rules, plain and simple! Same goes with the 5,000ft limit, only legal for you subject to the terrain below and your gliding ability.
By the way, it's ASIC, not APSIC.
By the way, it's ASIC, not APSIC.
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And its going to have to be within the stall speeds and do 200 knots? 
The Harmon Rockets and high performance RV's and Lancairs will never make it into RAA any time soon either, they stall way to fast.
Something somewhere will have to be a compromise, but when it happens I bet it will cost you way more than your jab!
Lightning..... (USA built Esqual) is about a 150...or 158 Mile per hour machine. Not KNOTS. So from what I know of this plane, and I have flown one a couple of times with a 100HP Rotax which will TAS around 126knots, and up to 130knots, with a Electric constant speed prop. So a fixed pitch on a Jab engine, and trust me the Jab engine is not meant for anything other than a timber or composite fixed pitch, it will not be doing 158 knots.
Jabaless
The Harmon Rockets and high performance RV's and Lancairs will never make it into RAA any time soon either, they stall way to fast.Something somewhere will have to be a compromise, but when it happens I bet it will cost you way more than your jab!
Lightning..... (USA built Esqual) is about a 150...or 158 Mile per hour machine. Not KNOTS. So from what I know of this plane, and I have flown one a couple of times with a 100HP Rotax which will TAS around 126knots, and up to 130knots, with a Electric constant speed prop. So a fixed pitch on a Jab engine, and trust me the Jab engine is not meant for anything other than a timber or composite fixed pitch, it will not be doing 158 knots.
Jabaless
Last edited by Jabawocky; 10th Mar 2009 at 00:14.
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Chuck is on the money in #36! We bought a boat on retirement despite a lot of research into an a/c purchase. The freedom a boat gives vs our ability to borrow some very nice a/c from mates made it a no-brainer!
However, Andy_RR's comment about an Oz solution is only partly true. The UK situation is almost a complete disaster as there's no "common" security pass and each airport issues its own. The GA situation is easier than here, though, as they've been left alone [for now.]
G'day
However, Andy_RR's comment about an Oz solution is only partly true. The UK situation is almost a complete disaster as there's no "common" security pass and each airport issues its own. The GA situation is easier than here, though, as they've been left alone [for now.]
G'day
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King Daniels, not sure what you're up to here other than killing a good thread, however you have highlighted an important point in bold in your attempt to discredit me:
(d) the aeroplane is flown by the holder of a valid pilot licence (not being a student pilot licence):
You have an RA-Aus CERTIFICATE (note NOT a licence), therefore you are not entitled to fly into Controlled Airspace or GAAP without a PPL
If you wonder how I know this, please check and ask yourself if the following comments sound familiar to you:
- I was going to get my PPL so that I can fly into GAAPS airfields and into controlled air-space.
- I wanted to do the PPL in my own J160 but noone around here was prepared to use my perfectly modern, certified, factory-built RAA registered aircraft. They wanted me instead to pay $270.00 an hour to use their thirty year old vintage aircrafts to do my PPL.
-So I gave up wanting to get my GA license because of the new regulations coming into RAA that will allow us to do most things that GA already does.
-I was told it's most likely cheaper to get caught flying into controlled airspace and paying the fine than it is to get one's endorsement to fly in those areas.
- So many a times having to go to Brisbane or going through activated military airspace, or flying in controlled areas I just follow radio procedures, ring up beforehand, and put in a flight plan; and in so doing I have never been challenged or denied.
- When doing this, I always mention I am an RAA pilot and do not hold a PPL. The reply most times is that they are not interested in that fact.
- My point being unless one wants to do commercial flying, NVFR, IFR,or carry more than one passenger what is the point in spending the money to have a GA license. -
- Also even though I think rules and regulations are important, some would seem to be just downright stupid. A person should be certified to fly an AC whether it is VH or RAA registered is irrelevant. e.g. if a J160 is RAA registered, a person holding a PPL who has obtained their license in a VH registered J160 should be endorsed to fly that particular plane and visa versa.
- But what would I know? I have only been interested in aviation for thirty years.
This is a PROFESSIONAL Pilot's rumour network. Being interested in aviation for thirty years doesn't give you the right to break the rules and fly into CTA without qualification which you have openly admitted to.
I'll keep a close eye out my window next time I'm flying past WYEEMA.
(d) the aeroplane is flown by the holder of a valid pilot licence (not being a student pilot licence):
You have an RA-Aus CERTIFICATE (note NOT a licence), therefore you are not entitled to fly into Controlled Airspace or GAAP without a PPL
If you wonder how I know this, please check and ask yourself if the following comments sound familiar to you:
- I was going to get my PPL so that I can fly into GAAPS airfields and into controlled air-space.
- I wanted to do the PPL in my own J160 but noone around here was prepared to use my perfectly modern, certified, factory-built RAA registered aircraft. They wanted me instead to pay $270.00 an hour to use their thirty year old vintage aircrafts to do my PPL.
-So I gave up wanting to get my GA license because of the new regulations coming into RAA that will allow us to do most things that GA already does.
-I was told it's most likely cheaper to get caught flying into controlled airspace and paying the fine than it is to get one's endorsement to fly in those areas.
- So many a times having to go to Brisbane or going through activated military airspace, or flying in controlled areas I just follow radio procedures, ring up beforehand, and put in a flight plan; and in so doing I have never been challenged or denied.
- When doing this, I always mention I am an RAA pilot and do not hold a PPL. The reply most times is that they are not interested in that fact.
- My point being unless one wants to do commercial flying, NVFR, IFR,or carry more than one passenger what is the point in spending the money to have a GA license. -
- Also even though I think rules and regulations are important, some would seem to be just downright stupid. A person should be certified to fly an AC whether it is VH or RAA registered is irrelevant. e.g. if a J160 is RAA registered, a person holding a PPL who has obtained their license in a VH registered J160 should be endorsed to fly that particular plane and visa versa.
- But what would I know? I have only been interested in aviation for thirty years.
This is a PROFESSIONAL Pilot's rumour network. Being interested in aviation for thirty years doesn't give you the right to break the rules and fly into CTA without qualification which you have openly admitted to.
I'll keep a close eye out my window next time I'm flying past WYEEMA.