Is ASIC killing off GA PPL?

[kingtoad]

The local city council security guy is required (by their procedures manual, I'd guess) to inspect & note details of 4 ASIC cards every am & 4 every pm. So he pops into the maint org where I work and checks our cards on a regular basis. I've offered to photocopy them all so he can keep them in his desk drawer to save him a trip. He likes the idea, but his boss is around a little too much he reckons. :-)

[Capt Wally]

hey Dr me old mate..................good to see that the continious bashing of SP SE IFR is silly, you stay put & wait out the nasty CB's, how dare they keep a good Dr on da ground !

PVT flying in GA is simply too expensive & therefore has a huge flow on effect where now experiencing, together with greater airframe growth than ever!. It aint rocket science to know that the youth of today see that sort of dosh harder to find than drugs!



CW

[Islander Jock]

I don't see what difference having a red background for RPT or grey background for GA would have achieved. All rhetoric and semantics aside, the card's primary purpose is to identify people who a. Have a legitimate reason to be airside at a security controlled airport and b. Provide evidence that that person has undergone security checking. Those two criteria on their own are not bad things. The costs and delays however in obtaining the damn things are certainly reason for complaint.

Even a grey card for landside security areas of an airport involves the same checks (and therefore costs). The difference in colour is just a means to stop people who don't need to be airside from going there.

[Flying Binghi]

Considering most Oz airports are not security controled airports - what is it that ASICs are supposed to acheive.

Passengers boarding either comercial or private flights do not need ASICs.

As has been pointed out, the people tasked to do the checking of ASICs at many airports are well known. Not hard for osama the bad guy to work out when best to enter the airport.

The costs of having a representative of the airport do the card checking is added to the airport running costs - higher landing fees and ground rental costs.

[Islander Jock]

Considering most Oz airports are not security controled airports - what is it that ASICs are supposed to acheive.

I think you will find most airports at major centres are in fact security controlled. Sure there are the remote dirt or sealed strips around the place but also without fuel or any other infrastrucucture there. If you think you can survive without an ASIC and some have, fine don't get one. But don't complain when you get rumbled by the local airport Nazi when you drop in to get some AVGAS.

Passengers boarding either comercial or private flights do not need ASICs.

Correct, but they must be escorted AT ALL TIMES whilst airside by an ASIC holder.

As has been pointed out, the people tasked to do the checking of ASICs at many airports are well known. Not hard for osama the bad guy to work out when best to enter the airport.

As long as said bad guy is on the airport during a non operational period, and cannot plant something that can be loaded onto or damage an aircraft... then so what? Procedures, which I will not discuss, for the protection of aircraft and pax during operational periods are a different matter.

The costs of having a representative of the airport do the card checking is added to the airport running costs - higher landing fees and ground rental costs.

I would suggest the cost of all the other security compliance measures that have been supported on other threads such as cameras, fences, screening eqpt etc will have a far greater impact on an airports operating cost.

[airmuster]

Thunderbird Five
You Wrote
Does anybody know anybody, seen anybody, or even heard of anybody, anywhere, anytime, anyhow, being asked to show their card at one of these terrorist target regional airports, or even a major regional airport?
I get around a bit, various states, never even of a whiff of " 'ello 'ello... whatchu doin' 'ere then?"

Don't go to YCAR without one. There is/was a CP there that used to look at you through binoculars to see if you were ASIC compliant. Even if you had it in your shirt pocket (not on display) he'd report you.

I think he has gone now........ to JT...... hope they keep him there.

[Flying Binghi]

I think you will find most airports at major centres are in fact security controlled. Sure there are the remote dirt or sealed strips around the place but also without fuel or any other infrastrucucture there.

YRED, a busy place, located aprox nine miles north of the state capitals Int airport is not security controled (via ERSA)

Correct, but they must be escorted AT ALL TIMES whilst airside by an ASIC holder

That makes private pilots targets. An extreme example - Family members at risk of been held hostage to get pilots co-operation.

As long as said bad guy is on the airport during a non operational period, and cannot plant something that can be loaded onto or damage an aircraft... then so what? Procedures, which I will not discuss, for the protection of aircraft and pax during operational periods are a different matter

As an a/c owner, apart from my own vigilance, there is no other security provided to my operations.

I would suggest the cost of all the other security compliance measures that have been supported on other threads such as cameras, fences, screening eqpt etc will have a far greater impact on an airports operating cost.

Islander Jock, I agree here, the ASIC is yet more cost.

[Islander Jock]

Flying Binghi,
I think you are getting a little confused as to the purpose of the Australian Transport Security Regulations. As it stands at the moment, all legislation pertaining to screening and ASIC compliance is in place for the protection of RPT flights. It only affects those GA operations that chose to operate at airfields where RPT also operate.

[Flying Binghi]

Islander Jock, I understand the intent of the ASIC.

YBAF, a security controlled airport (via ERSA) I'm not current with the situation there so I wonder if somebody can cover the RPT operations there please.

[Islander Jock]

Archerfield, Jandakot, Parafield are all classified as Security Controlled however are exempt from the ASIC requirement due to no RPT services. Moorabbin has certain sections that require ASIC.

I believe the reason the GAAP fields were designated security controlled even though they had no RPT was to receive funding from the former DOTARS for the construction of fences and other physical security measures. We should just be thankful that those airports have been exempted from the ASIC requirement.

It becomes a bit of a pain the rear though when numb nut pilots arrive at a security controlled airport after spending all their time flying in and out of Bankstown or Jandakot. I really feel that my intelligence is being insulted when they deny any knowledge of the requirement to have an ASIC. Makes me wonder what else they don't know.

More info www.casa.gov.au/fcl/licence/airport.htm

[Flying Binghi]

I believe the reason the GAAP fields were designated security controlled even though they had no RPT was to receive funding from the former DOTARS for the construction of fences and other physical security measures. We should just be thankful that those airports have been exempted from the ASIC requirement.

Thanks for that Islander Jock, it will be interesting to hear what others have to say about it.

[Walrus 7]

Islander Jock,

A correction on one point. An ASIC does not give you legitimate excuse for being airside. It only indicates to an inspector that you have had the security checks done. They can still charge you with trespass or chuck you off their airport if you don't have authority to be there.

Walrus

[Islander Jock]

Walrus,
fair enough. What I should have said is that the ASIC application process itself identifies people with a need for access.

[bushy]

Professionals????

Flying blind
There are lots and lots of GA pilots who are professional pilots. In Australia there are probably more professional pilots working outside the airlines than there are airline pilots.
And by "professional" I mean commercial pilots who are employed full time flying aircraft for a living, and doing it well. Many of the GA aircraft are "Commercial" aircraft, engaged in commercial operations.
Big city dwellers and the general public are generally not aware of this, and only see training and recreational flying.
There is much more than this, and there are many airfields where GA and RPT aircraft operate on the same tarmac, and use the same terminal building.
We all use the same runways.
A "GA only" ASIC is not practical. Unless we want to have to get and carry two of them.

[Flyingblind]

Fair comment bushy, one that i do realise and perhaps failed to clearly communicate, i guess i'm just fed up of being a cash cow for the Government and would like to see some kind of sense return to GA.

The idealist in me says " i'm just fed up of being a cash cow for the Government' but the cynic in me says;

WELCOME TO GA SON!

[Flying Binghi]

As a private pilot wearing my ASIC, am I then allowed to walk up to the RPT aircraft?

[Chimbu chuckles]

I have said it before in this place and I'll say it again.

The thing that has 'killed' GA (it isn't actually dead - far from it) is competition for the leisure $ from boating.

Someone said above that 'young people find it harder to afford flying than drugs' or some such.

Young people in aviation, while desperately needed, have never been the big money buying aircraft, they were merely on their way through to airlines...using GA to achieve a gaol and then 20 yrs later buying an aeroplane when their airline wages/circumstances/enthusiasm allowed.

Take a look around any protected body of water in Australia and see the $ bobbing at anchor...many owned by pilots. In the 60s and 70s a fair % of that money was parked at GA airports...then people found boating as new technology (GPS/Furling sails/low maintenance hulls etc) made it more easily achievable for the average person with sufficient disposable income.

For the average person boating is a hell of a lot more fun than flying...think about it...out on a boat on Moreton Bay/Sydney Harbour/ etc with great food/booze and chicks in bikinis or flogging around in a light aircraft doing what and going where? There is no infrastructure for GA to compare to the boating scene.

In those parts of Australia where boating is a far less attractive idea, Victoria as an example, GA is thriving.

It is the same in the UK where I fly a mates C180 often. The boating scene in and around the UK is only for the hardy soul indeed...and GA has an infrastructure as a result of the large numbers partaking...fly ins/airshows virtually every weekend in summer...in fact many fly ins every weekend...you can spend an entire weekend flying from one to another and having a great time...little grass airfields with full service restaurants that attract non flying locals as well as people flying in for a the ubiquitous $100 hamburger.

And that is ignoring Europe just 20 nm across the channel...closer than the Gold Coast is to Maroochydore and just as easy to fly to since the EU came into existence.

NZ is some where in between....a very boating orientated people indeed but because NZ is fairly far south boating there is for the true enthusiast and GA thrives along side for those less enamored of days spent cold and wet racing around the cans...I think Kiwis are generally more air minded than Ozzies too.

ASICS don't help...but they are not the cause either.

[Islander Jock]

As a private pilot wearing my ASIC, am I then allowed to walk up to the RPT aircraft?

You can try it but I would then expect a call from your local state or Fed police officer for a bit of a chat.

Read Walrus' clarification of my post earlier. The ASIC only gives you access insofar as you have a lawful excuse for being airside. Having your 172 parked on the edge of the apron is not an excuse to be up close and personal with the RPT. I'm sure the ramp rats, pilots, refuellers and anyone else around would make sure of that. Despite what many might think, they do know wtf is going on.

[Flying Binghi]

I think you are getting a little confused as to the purpose of the Australian Transport Security Regulations. As it stands at the moment, all legislation pertaining to screening and ASIC compliance is in place for the protection of RPT flights.

As a private pilot wearing my ASIC, am I then allowed to walk up to the RPT aircraft?

You can try it but I would then expect a call from your local state or Fed police officer for a bit of a chat.

The ASIC only gives you access insofar as you have a lawful excuse for being airside. Having your 172 parked on the edge of the apron is not an excuse to be up close and personal with the RPT

Islander Jock, if the idea of the ASIC is to protect RPT, and yet the ASIC wearer is not allowed anywhere near the RPT - what then is the reason for private pilots to be required to have an ASIC ?

[Islander Jock]

I knew the moment would come when I would realise I am wasting my time. It just arrived