25 years of holding at Williamtown
Thread Starter
CaptainMidnight, you state:
The reason I have made a few dollars in business is that I have always looked for simple solutions for complex problems.
The civilian side of the airport charges an amount per head for people to land at Williamtown. If they added 50 cents per head, this would bring in between $500,000 and $750,000 per annum – an adequate amount to man a Class D tower during airline operations.
Regarding manning the tower, you state:
You seem to ignore the fact that I want the airspace activated and modern Class D procedures used – i.e. simply a traffic information service between IFR and VFR, and reasonable dimensions on the Class D airspace. If this existed there would be no measurable reduction in freedom for GA aircraft, and safety would be substantially improved.
By the way, once again you seem to resist change at just about every move. Instead of saying that some of the ideas are good and should be looked at, you basically say that the status quo should be maintained.
And don't say it is as simple as adding 50c to each ticket. There are not simple solutions to complex problems.
The civilian side of the airport charges an amount per head for people to land at Williamtown. If they added 50 cents per head, this would bring in between $500,000 and $750,000 per annum – an adequate amount to man a Class D tower during airline operations.
Regarding manning the tower, you state:
I think in the industry you are very much alone with that proposal. GA have the freedom to operate in the area on weekends, and to propose activating the airspace instead and lose that freedom I think it is unlikely to get support from any group.
By the way, once again you seem to resist change at just about every move. Instead of saying that some of the ideas are good and should be looked at, you basically say that the status quo should be maintained.
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Quote:
The civilian side of the airport charges an amount per head for people to land at Williamtown. If they added 50 cents per head, this would bring in between $500,000 and $750,000 per annum – an adequate amount to man a Class D tower during airline operations.
simply a traffic information service between IFR and VFR
Based on those figures Dick, Why not provide a CAGRO for RPT ops? The hours could be flexible and at a fraction of the cost of a class D tower yet still provide the level of traffic information you want. For example, it costs around $200,000 per annum for the service 11 hours per day 7 days a week - and obviously no where near these hours would be required at Willy. Seems like a much more cost effective solution to me.
The civilian side of the airport charges an amount per head for people to land at Williamtown. If they added 50 cents per head, this would bring in between $500,000 and $750,000 per annum – an adequate amount to man a Class D tower during airline operations.
simply a traffic information service between IFR and VFR
Based on those figures Dick, Why not provide a CAGRO for RPT ops? The hours could be flexible and at a fraction of the cost of a class D tower yet still provide the level of traffic information you want. For example, it costs around $200,000 per annum for the service 11 hours per day 7 days a week - and obviously no where near these hours would be required at Willy. Seems like a much more cost effective solution to me.
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1. Civil ATCs cannot retain rating endorsements in a weekend only tower. Anyway Tower services (RWY and TWY control) are probably not required. The US would provide a Class E terminal airspace service to the ground assuming the ILS was operational (Has it got an ILS?). If Williamtown is that busy a smart country would make it a civil airport with a small military component, the US do it all over the place with ANG units. IN Pommyland the military airspace is 5nm around the field with a short pan handle along the most used instrument approach. Easy to avoid if your VFR but a call to the Approach unit and they will keep you clear of their spam cans.
2. Ergo there is no reason in the world of real air traffic control to not allow a VFR transit of the CTR either by design or using procedures. (Its particularly easy if you have radar!) However in Oz woe betide a blue suiter letting a VFR lightie get in the way of the Sqn Ldr and his jet propelled spam can.
3. If you read many of the other posts on Pprune, Oz had the "best ATC system in the world" until someone came along and rattled the cage of complacency. Why doesn't anybody else complain? Is it because they have never seen good ATC systems operating or is it because they have to live in a world where they have to make a living? That is, make friends and influence people.
Keep up the good work Dick!
2. Ergo there is no reason in the world of real air traffic control to not allow a VFR transit of the CTR either by design or using procedures. (Its particularly easy if you have radar!) However in Oz woe betide a blue suiter letting a VFR lightie get in the way of the Sqn Ldr and his jet propelled spam can.
3. If you read many of the other posts on Pprune, Oz had the "best ATC system in the world" until someone came along and rattled the cage of complacency. Why doesn't anybody else complain? Is it because they have never seen good ATC systems operating or is it because they have to live in a world where they have to make a living? That is, make friends and influence people.
Keep up the good work Dick!
you seem to resist change at just about every move.
Just a firm believer that in a particular scenario the class of airspace and level of air traffic service should be determined by thorough safety & cost-benefit analysis, not rhetoric or simply copying something that somewhere else in the world appears to work for their local environment.
And critical elements are widespread industry support for whatever falls out of such analysis and thorough education, both lacking in virtually all airspace reform in this country since the 1990's, resulting in rollbacks and amendments - and $M's down the drain.
Mr Smith
I'm not and I haven't read anyone else arguing for the status quo if there is a better (ie SAFER and more efficient) way of doing business
I think you will find people have offered you reasons for why maybe it is the way it is.
I'm sure however you may have got a more supportive reception if you had approached this subject a different way, rather than make a range of accusations and off siding most people in defence including blaming them for an accident 26 years ago that the report would indicate a rather different cause for and having a go at Angus's reputation for telling the truth.
And your wrong about civilian controllers not being allowed in military towers, there are plenty of them now. Just not working for air services as there is a different operating system.I'm sure if ASA think there is a dollar in it there would be an arrangement made to man the same tower somehow.
I'm not sure that if the US has 15 midairs a year, even with 15,20,40 times the traffic that their system works safely. It may mean no one holds over a beach but one of the best quotes in aviation is if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.
I'm not and I haven't read anyone else arguing for the status quo if there is a better (ie SAFER and more efficient) way of doing business
I think you will find people have offered you reasons for why maybe it is the way it is.
I'm sure however you may have got a more supportive reception if you had approached this subject a different way, rather than make a range of accusations and off siding most people in defence including blaming them for an accident 26 years ago that the report would indicate a rather different cause for and having a go at Angus's reputation for telling the truth.
And your wrong about civilian controllers not being allowed in military towers, there are plenty of them now. Just not working for air services as there is a different operating system.I'm sure if ASA think there is a dollar in it there would be an arrangement made to man the same tower somehow.
I'm not sure that if the US has 15 midairs a year, even with 15,20,40 times the traffic that their system works safely. It may mean no one holds over a beach but one of the best quotes in aviation is if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.
Now having done a little bit of research on Google with Vh-mdx
For Mr Smith (post 128) and Mr Hat (140)
The summary of the search efforts for VH-MDX indicate it involved over 400 people, went for 10 Days of air searching (including RAAF aircraft)and even more of foot slogging including the army. At the time it was one of the BIGGEST search efforts ever conducted in Australia. it included complete aerial photography of the area provided by the RAAF and satellite photos provided by the USAF.
I offer you BOTH the opportunity to withdraw your remarks about the effort that was conducted to find these people by the defence forces.
For Mr Smith (post 128) and Mr Hat (140)
The summary of the search efforts for VH-MDX indicate it involved over 400 people, went for 10 Days of air searching (including RAAF aircraft)and even more of foot slogging including the army. At the time it was one of the BIGGEST search efforts ever conducted in Australia. it included complete aerial photography of the area provided by the RAAF and satellite photos provided by the USAF.
I offer you BOTH the opportunity to withdraw your remarks about the effort that was conducted to find these people by the defence forces.
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Civil ATCs cannot retain rating endorsements in a weekend only tower.
Camden is normally W/E & public holidays only.
Avalon is manned infrequently on a as needed/requested basis.
Thread Starter
Ozbiggles, you state:
Unfortunately I’ve been there and done that. I’ve been involved now for over 18 years in attempting to get some basic changes to the way the military operates their airspace. The majority of that time has been spent behind the scenes, going to meetings, talking to people on the phone, writing “sensitive” letters and massaging peoples’ egos – all to absolutely no avail.
Even though I have been promised on numerous occasions by senior people in the military that changes will be made (as they actually agree that changes should be made), nothing has happened. These people do not even have the ethics to drop me a line or give me a phone call and explain why they have changed their minds, or why they have not been able to succeed.
My new method will continue until something happens. That is, the military announces that they have no intention of making any changes and explain the reasons, or they go ahead and make the changes that they have said they would. Nothing could be fairer than this.
MrApproach, I thank you very much for your post. I hope everyone reads it at least twice. You are absolutely spot on. The reason people don’t complain is as you have said - it is twofold. Many Aussie pilots and ATCs have never experienced how an efficient ATC system can operate. That is, one which provides a high level of safety but does not add unnecessarily to cost. Also there are people who agree that changes should be made, but are simply not prepared to say this because their careers would be curtailed. I fully understand this. These people give me a lot of support behind the scenes. One day when they retire I believe they will become more vocal.
I'm sure however you may have got a more supportive reception if you had approached this subject a different way
Even though I have been promised on numerous occasions by senior people in the military that changes will be made (as they actually agree that changes should be made), nothing has happened. These people do not even have the ethics to drop me a line or give me a phone call and explain why they have changed their minds, or why they have not been able to succeed.
My new method will continue until something happens. That is, the military announces that they have no intention of making any changes and explain the reasons, or they go ahead and make the changes that they have said they would. Nothing could be fairer than this.
MrApproach, I thank you very much for your post. I hope everyone reads it at least twice. You are absolutely spot on. The reason people don’t complain is as you have said - it is twofold. Many Aussie pilots and ATCs have never experienced how an efficient ATC system can operate. That is, one which provides a high level of safety but does not add unnecessarily to cost. Also there are people who agree that changes should be made, but are simply not prepared to say this because their careers would be curtailed. I fully understand this. These people give me a lot of support behind the scenes. One day when they retire I believe they will become more vocal.
Why not ring the number in ERSA and ask for the best time to transit BEFORE you launch.
Coastal NBB to BRI is probably one of the best scenics you can do. Did it once 25 years ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. Best time is hour after first light, absolutely magic
Coastal NBB to BRI is probably one of the best scenics you can do. Did it once 25 years ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. Best time is hour after first light, absolutely magic
Mr Smith
I'm not talking about the people high up who make the decisions. I'm talking about the coal face workers. ie the ATCs in the area and the broader defence community, who would be more inclined to do what they can if you offered a polite point of view with practical suggestion. Rather than general broad ranging insults that you throw out there that are false ie accusing defence of not putting in a 100% effort in the search for MDX which it is easy enough with a google search to prove is a FALSE insinuation.
Then there is the one about a lot of defence people being no good in business
or leadership
or ATC ie As and Bs teams
or the chief lying to you etc etc
This is why there is VERY little incentive to spend valuable time trying to assist you save 5 mins holding, at least from the worker bee level. Those higher up can speak for themselves.
I'm not talking about the people high up who make the decisions. I'm talking about the coal face workers. ie the ATCs in the area and the broader defence community, who would be more inclined to do what they can if you offered a polite point of view with practical suggestion. Rather than general broad ranging insults that you throw out there that are false ie accusing defence of not putting in a 100% effort in the search for MDX which it is easy enough with a google search to prove is a FALSE insinuation.
Then there is the one about a lot of defence people being no good in business
or leadership
or ATC ie As and Bs teams
or the chief lying to you etc etc
This is why there is VERY little incentive to spend valuable time trying to assist you save 5 mins holding, at least from the worker bee level. Those higher up can speak for themselves.
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Richard
You have hit the nail on the head old mate. The military owns the Williamtown airspace. Anything you see on VTC or TAC charts etc is owned by the military. They operate how they see fit, within CASA regulations. Your "plan" (well tought out as it might be) to clear lighties overhead at 3500 is sketchy at best. Even you couldn't count the number of times I have descended from the western airspace to overhead the airfield (which just happens to be around the 3000-5000 mark). Hawks practsing PFL's, PC9s practising PFLs. There is more going on than operational training at Willy.
As far as lobbying the RAAF headshed, you are well and truly barking up the wrong tree. The military in general is struggling to hold onto airspace (see Pearce, Townsville etc), why would they wont to let CASA degrade their operational flexibility (read: their right to deny entry of civilian aircraft). The government controls who owns the airspace and how it is used. Try focusing your frustrations in that direction and see how you go.
Note. Dick i dont necessarily disagree with what your saying, but 1) think about the audience your trying to reach and 2) the message your preaching. 1) The people who are passionate are the RAAFies. hanging sh*te on them wont achieve anything
. 2) is your problem just with Williamtown, or the greater ATC/CASA community. If so perhaps having only 1 example of a defunct ATC system isnt going to prove your point.
Comparing the US system to the Oz system is a bit misleading. Australia has a tiny fraction of the movements that the US system does, both civilian, RPT and militray. Thus suggesting that the comparitively light traffic experienced in Australia needs the same system as the US is absurd. Apart from your seriuos holding incident (which seems to be on the cautios side of safety) how else is Australias system prejudicing safety??? I am genuinely interested how safety is in jeopardy.
GD1
I’ve been involved now for over 18 years in attempting to get some basic changes to the way the military operates their airspace.
As far as lobbying the RAAF headshed, you are well and truly barking up the wrong tree. The military in general is struggling to hold onto airspace (see Pearce, Townsville etc), why would they wont to let CASA degrade their operational flexibility (read: their right to deny entry of civilian aircraft). The government controls who owns the airspace and how it is used. Try focusing your frustrations in that direction and see how you go.
Note. Dick i dont necessarily disagree with what your saying, but 1) think about the audience your trying to reach and 2) the message your preaching. 1) The people who are passionate are the RAAFies. hanging sh*te on them wont achieve anything
. 2) is your problem just with Williamtown, or the greater ATC/CASA community. If so perhaps having only 1 example of a defunct ATC system isnt going to prove your point. Comparing the US system to the Oz system is a bit misleading. Australia has a tiny fraction of the movements that the US system does, both civilian, RPT and militray. Thus suggesting that the comparitively light traffic experienced in Australia needs the same system as the US is absurd. Apart from your seriuos holding incident (which seems to be on the cautios side of safety) how else is Australias system prejudicing safety??? I am genuinely interested how safety is in jeopardy.
GD1
I'm in one of those moods
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.. this crap about 15 times the traffic is just that .... CRAP!
.
... most of the J curve traffic is as dense as like type airspace in the US of A!!
.
It is not about effective use of airspace is it!? ... no ... it is about trying to justify a posthumous position lest an accident occur .... god forbid having to justify previous reductions in systems and safety
.
Stop abusing the Mil .. are they the last bastion you have left to attack? .... following on from:-
.
. CAA, CASA, AOPA, ATSB, AsA, AIPA (QANTAS), AFAP (et al), DoTaRS, DoD, ATC's, Pilots (in general), Investigators, Regulators, ... anyone else I forgot to include?
.
... most of the J curve traffic is as dense as like type airspace in the US of A!!
.
It is not about effective use of airspace is it!? ... no ... it is about trying to justify a posthumous position lest an accident occur .... god forbid having to justify previous reductions in systems and safety
.
Stop abusing the Mil .. are they the last bastion you have left to attack? .... following on from:-
.
. CAA, CASA, AOPA, ATSB, AsA, AIPA (QANTAS), AFAP (et al), DoTaRS, DoD, ATC's, Pilots (in general), Investigators, Regulators, ... anyone else I forgot to include?
Last edited by Scurvy.D.Dog; 25th Jan 2008 at 22:02.
As OZBUSDRIVER said, you can always call willy up before you takeoff. I've gotten many PILS and assorted other clearances through willy and richmond by calling up beforehand, quite often its a case of either "No worries" or "Not right now, but if you get here around <time> it shouldn't be a problem" or "Sorry mate, no chance today"
Or plan B (a personal favourite) - transit on weekends or during standdown.
I understand where your concern lies Dick, and it's not necessarily wrong, however I've only been held once at NBB for more than 5-10 mins (due to a bunch of military aircraft flying through Gate something or other, still to this day no idea what it meant), and had no problems with other clearances. I've gone up the inland lane at 2500, I've been recleared from abeam Nelson Bay direct overhead WLM at 2000. I've done orbits overhead the Signa shipwreck, then been cleared over willy again.
I find that it helps to phone up beforehand (although I must admit, I rarely if ever did this for plain ol willy coastal), and to give a bit of advance notice over the radio. I can't remember exactly, but I think I used to call up coming past swansea, so they had a heads up. You'll almost certainly get held if you wait until Nobbys to call up, same as waiting until Long Reef to call for HBB orbits. Coming southbound, I found I would always get let in, but would be held closer to Williamtown if there was a potential conflict.
I don't mean any offence by this Dick, but how do you normally go about getting your clearance? I ask because I'm interested to know, not because I think you're doing anything wrong. I only judge 2 people, myself and my students (and even then I'm sometimes wrong!)
Arrr
Or plan B (a personal favourite) - transit on weekends or during standdown.
I understand where your concern lies Dick, and it's not necessarily wrong, however I've only been held once at NBB for more than 5-10 mins (due to a bunch of military aircraft flying through Gate something or other, still to this day no idea what it meant), and had no problems with other clearances. I've gone up the inland lane at 2500, I've been recleared from abeam Nelson Bay direct overhead WLM at 2000. I've done orbits overhead the Signa shipwreck, then been cleared over willy again.
I find that it helps to phone up beforehand (although I must admit, I rarely if ever did this for plain ol willy coastal), and to give a bit of advance notice over the radio. I can't remember exactly, but I think I used to call up coming past swansea, so they had a heads up. You'll almost certainly get held if you wait until Nobbys to call up, same as waiting until Long Reef to call for HBB orbits. Coming southbound, I found I would always get let in, but would be held closer to Williamtown if there was a potential conflict.
I don't mean any offence by this Dick, but how do you normally go about getting your clearance? I ask because I'm interested to know, not because I think you're doing anything wrong. I only judge 2 people, myself and my students (and even then I'm sometimes wrong!)
Arrr
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I have asked two important questions on two different posts.
Quote:
I will look forward to advice on why, on a CAVOK day, when the only traffic is a civilian Metro, a VFR aircraft can’t be given a clearance over the top of Williamtown airfield from the south to the north rather than being held at Nobbys.
Quote:
I will look forward to advice on why, on a CAVOK day, when the only traffic is a civilian Metro, a VFR aircraft can’t be given a clearance over the top of Williamtown airfield from the south to the north rather than being held at Nobbys.
Quote:
I ask the experts here – why don’t we follow the proven FAA separation standards between IFR and VFR in Class C airspace?
(gripe, gripe, whinge, etc...)
I ask the experts here – why don’t we follow the proven FAA separation standards between IFR and VFR in Class C airspace?
(gripe, gripe, whinge, etc...)
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Delay required
I'm with you Dick! The only times that I seem to get held is at .... WLM. Category MED2, and still have to hold while a couple of FA18's do their thing.
"Approach, confirm you copy we are MED2?" No reply, and a 14 minute hold orbiting at 3000', IMC, 5nm east of WLM. And not just the once!
All this despite the rule book indicating that MED tfc has priority over Mil tfc.
One can only hope.
And got boxed in on the tarmac the other week, grounds requirement was -- wait for it-- "stand by". Had to shut down and get a push back. It seems only one RAAF type doing Clearance Delivery, SMC, TWR, and APP.
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Med2 has the same priority as Scheduled traffic at a capital city aerodrome. WLM is not a capital city aerodrome and it's primary role is military. Of course MED1 is a different story.
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willnotcomply says
As if the mob mentality bias against Dick Smith here cannot get any more obvious with statements like this.
Or perhaps I misunderstood your intent. Was your comment aimed at our Air Traffic Controllers (who are not professional pilots either) like Scurvy D Dog? Scurvy D Dog says
willnotcomply did you want to challenge Scurvy D Dog on this ridiculous statement as we do not have 'like type airspace' and the density in Oz, even the Jcurve is nothing like the US? Or were you really aiming your nasty sentiments at Dick Smith alone?
The mob mentality is hard at work in the aviation industry in Australia.
Scurvy D Dog you claim that Dick Smith has 'abused' the Military and Pilots in general. I for one believe that Dick Smith is entirely on my side and supports my wishes to drag Australia's ridiculous airspace out of the 1950's. As a commercial airline pilot flying a redtail jet around our skies he has my full support.
MJ
What do others think?asks Dick
Who gives a BTW PP in PPRUNE stands for Professional Pilot. So WTF are you doing on this site?
Who gives a BTW PP in PPRUNE stands for Professional Pilot. So WTF are you doing on this site?
Or perhaps I misunderstood your intent. Was your comment aimed at our Air Traffic Controllers (who are not professional pilots either) like Scurvy D Dog? Scurvy D Dog says
most of the J curve traffic is as dense as like type airspace in the US of A!!
The mob mentality is hard at work in the aviation industry in Australia.
Scurvy D Dog you claim that Dick Smith has 'abused' the Military and Pilots in general. I for one believe that Dick Smith is entirely on my side and supports my wishes to drag Australia's ridiculous airspace out of the 1950's. As a commercial airline pilot flying a redtail jet around our skies he has my full support.
MJ
Last edited by mjbow2; 27th Jan 2008 at 00:06.
I'm in one of those moods
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.... outside the primaries ... regional CTA and CTAF is, is it not (when comparied to the examples Dick has used of like type in the US)?
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You, like me, are entitled to your opinion!
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Now I do not know (cause I do not work for the Mil), but I would assume they run C terminal for a reason, be it types, mix, performance ..... dunno ... they are just some of the reasons I would suspect!
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You, like me, are entitled to your opinion!
.
Now I do not know (cause I do not work for the Mil), but I would assume they run C terminal for a reason, be it types, mix, performance ..... dunno ... they are just some of the reasons I would suspect!