25 years of holding at Williamtown
if you havent taken the time (and courtesy) to let me know you are coming, I can just as easily sherk my responsibility and deny you a clearance
Other controllers I have spoken to say a VFR flight plan makes very little or no difference to availability of a clearance, what's your problem?
How often do you sherk your responsibility?
Do you fly yourself? Flown around the world? Hold fixed and rotary wing licenses? Do tell.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are letting a TAAATS ATC know you are coming 5 miles before the boundary and you don't have a plan in the system, it's unlikely you'll get a clearance without some sort of delay.
It takes time to put your plan in the system, especially if the ATC is a bloke with fat fingers. If the ATC has higher priorities, i.e. Processing medical traffic, vectoring, sequencing or separating, like it or not, you are at the bottom of the queue.
How hard is it for you to put a plan in? If I can do it on an iPad in the cockpit anybody can. A little less whining, a little more self education will make both our jobs easier
It takes time to put your plan in the system, especially if the ATC is a bloke with fat fingers. If the ATC has higher priorities, i.e. Processing medical traffic, vectoring, sequencing or separating, like it or not, you are at the bottom of the queue.
How hard is it for you to put a plan in? If I can do it on an iPad in the cockpit anybody can. A little less whining, a little more self education will make both our jobs easier
Sorry Jack, that is not the point. Cleared to Enter sums it up better, here is a guy who admits he can sherk his responsibility. Is ATC there to help pilots or is it the other way around?
Is putting a plan in the system via Ipad always a good thing to do in a cockpit?
Is putting a plan in the system via Ipad always a good thing to do in a cockpit?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 59
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not just write a nice letter to the Base Commander, outlining the recent media issues and ask to discuss them openly and nicely and see the "other side" with no hidden agendas and no hyped up media publicity.
Bob, the emphasis is on the "pilots" plural, not just each individual pilot. It's a team sport, something many pilots just don't seem to get.
Clearedtoreenter, if you're doing something that's different to what everyone else is doing, say flying from A to B when everyone else is arriving and departing of course you're going to get dicked around. It's far easier (thus safer) to move one aircraft out of the way than moving a dozen around the one.
Clearedtoreenter, if you're doing something that's different to what everyone else is doing, say flying from A to B when everyone else is arriving and departing of course you're going to get dicked around. It's far easier (thus safer) to move one aircraft out of the way than moving a dozen around the one.
See if you can get a peak at the system from the other side
And for the record, I have never had problems with ATC anywhere and never really understood pilots who have. BUT this does not mean I think the system is perfect. Holding at Nobbys for ages is a case in point.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aussiebob and cleared to reenter...
Never said I have denied a clearance..you quote mined my response to get a comment you then took out of context. I was merely expressing my frustration at pilots who dont take the 2 minutes it requires to enter a flight plan but expect ATC to do it for them when they want a clearance (with no delay!), its not just writing up a strip, it processing that info into the system. If you flight plan, the data is already in the system, and a strip just gets printed, its that easy...just a handful of keystrokes and all your info is there.
I can deny a clearance due workload; you increase workload by not flight planning, I have never done that to an aircraft who hasnt flight planned because of my own professional responsibility, I was making the point that I could and I could justify it (6 aircraft on frequency..... and then have to enter flight plan details whilst controlling the other 6....could happen!)
If you get delays at wlm its for 2 reasons.. no strip because a plan hasnt been entered and doing it manually can take a few minutes and if you are coming from the north, comms are often poor. Second reason to hold is because of a separation requirement. Radar contact can be lost down the coast so we cant use that standard with arriving and departing traffic. Holding at a point plotted procedurally clear is the only option until another form of separation exists.
You could get for either or both reasons.
I dont understand why pilots dont wish to file a plan on the ground when it could save them time they are paying for airborne. not only will it save you time airborne, it could save your life one day.
This thread started because Dick Smith was cranky about being held to ensure Australian Aviation separation standards were being applied to him to keep him you know.... safe, he has since switched his argument that the separation standards being applied here are too cumbersome and impact too much on GA, cant say I disagree with him on that front, but attacking the people who control, who are there and licensed to meet those standards (and get stood down from control if they dont) is ridiculous. The RAAF isnt to blame, WLM leadership isnt to blame controllers arent to blame, rules are rules, they are there to be followed, the controller, the wlm det and the airforce has no choice but to enforce these standards. WLM runway is about 2nm from the coast, what separation would you like controllers to employ in order to process you through final approach or departure track? If you want to change separation standards, lobby CASA.
If you want to change the separation standard to 1nm, you are barking up the wrong tree, RAAF has nothing to do with it, they hold no power when it comes to separation of non military assets, separation is already relaxed with the coastal route and military traffic as the mil jets are considered VFR on departure and arrival in VMC (sep not required traffic only).
Dick, making WLM class D would undoubtedly make coastal clearances more forthcoming, but would make WLM airspace a lot more unsafe in my opinion, not many jetstar or virgin pilots would be happy with the change.. not exactly greater change for the most people and the most good on that front..
Never said I have denied a clearance..you quote mined my response to get a comment you then took out of context. I was merely expressing my frustration at pilots who dont take the 2 minutes it requires to enter a flight plan but expect ATC to do it for them when they want a clearance (with no delay!), its not just writing up a strip, it processing that info into the system. If you flight plan, the data is already in the system, and a strip just gets printed, its that easy...just a handful of keystrokes and all your info is there.
I can deny a clearance due workload; you increase workload by not flight planning, I have never done that to an aircraft who hasnt flight planned because of my own professional responsibility, I was making the point that I could and I could justify it (6 aircraft on frequency..... and then have to enter flight plan details whilst controlling the other 6....could happen!)
If you get delays at wlm its for 2 reasons.. no strip because a plan hasnt been entered and doing it manually can take a few minutes and if you are coming from the north, comms are often poor. Second reason to hold is because of a separation requirement. Radar contact can be lost down the coast so we cant use that standard with arriving and departing traffic. Holding at a point plotted procedurally clear is the only option until another form of separation exists.
You could get for either or both reasons.
I dont understand why pilots dont wish to file a plan on the ground when it could save them time they are paying for airborne. not only will it save you time airborne, it could save your life one day.
This thread started because Dick Smith was cranky about being held to ensure Australian Aviation separation standards were being applied to him to keep him you know.... safe, he has since switched his argument that the separation standards being applied here are too cumbersome and impact too much on GA, cant say I disagree with him on that front, but attacking the people who control, who are there and licensed to meet those standards (and get stood down from control if they dont) is ridiculous. The RAAF isnt to blame, WLM leadership isnt to blame controllers arent to blame, rules are rules, they are there to be followed, the controller, the wlm det and the airforce has no choice but to enforce these standards. WLM runway is about 2nm from the coast, what separation would you like controllers to employ in order to process you through final approach or departure track? If you want to change separation standards, lobby CASA.
If you want to change the separation standard to 1nm, you are barking up the wrong tree, RAAF has nothing to do with it, they hold no power when it comes to separation of non military assets, separation is already relaxed with the coastal route and military traffic as the mil jets are considered VFR on departure and arrival in VMC (sep not required traffic only).
Dick, making WLM class D would undoubtedly make coastal clearances more forthcoming, but would make WLM airspace a lot more unsafe in my opinion, not many jetstar or virgin pilots would be happy with the change.. not exactly greater change for the most people and the most good on that front..
Last edited by Duane; 26th Jun 2014 at 03:38.
Thread Starter
Duane. Gatwick is class D. Ballina is class G and somehow airline jets cope there.
Controllers can operate D like C if they want to separate VFR from IFR .
Some controllers like the fact that D helps reduce rediculous situations like holding VFR planes 12 miles out when safety does not require this.
Eyrie. Give me a call on 02 9450 0600 or [email protected]
Controllers can operate D like C if they want to separate VFR from IFR .
Some controllers like the fact that D helps reduce rediculous situations like holding VFR planes 12 miles out when safety does not require this.
Eyrie. Give me a call on 02 9450 0600 or [email protected]
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Eyrie
You did not until the Wagners Wellcamp airport was built. Do not get me wrong, I am in favour of Wagners Airport. I am also severely disadvantaged by the new RA2 airspace, even IFR, if I want to do the same YCAB-YDAY that I once did.
Now I must do it at A100 and then once passed the boundary do a crowbar descent. Literally.
But hey, the Army gave up almost half their patch, so fair is fair. I lose.
This is not the end of the world, their airspace is pretty damned small compared to Willytown.
Some big gains in the region, some small annoyances. Lets disband the ADF altogether shall we?
Dick, how do I send you an email off group? We have a potential problem here in the Darling Downs.
Now I must do it at A100 and then once passed the boundary do a crowbar descent. Literally.
But hey, the Army gave up almost half their patch, so fair is fair. I lose.
This is not the end of the world, their airspace is pretty damned small compared to Willytown.
Some big gains in the region, some small annoyances. Lets disband the ADF altogether shall we?
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Jack, that is not the point.
Cleared to Enter sums it up better, here is a guy who admits he can sherk his responsibility
Is ATC there to help pilots or is it the other way around?
Is putting a plan in the system via Ipad always a good thing to do in a cockpit?
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 26th Jun 2014 at 13:34.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: rangaville
Posts: 2,280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it is these good folk on the other side who tell me VFR plans for folk like me who are happy to step under CTA and call approaching the nearest VFR point are largely pointless.
It doesn't matter how many times a controller posts on here telling you if you rock up 10 miles before the boundary without a plan and he/she is busy, you're the lowest priority. Simple. Understand how the system works and you'll get a lot more out if it.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Simple. Understand how the system works and you'll get a lot more out if it.
Or, if no plan, call a lot sooner on CEN for VFR FF, and 98% of the time that will get you in the system and processed as they have lots of warning before handover.
Did someone say simple?
Nothing ever changes
I've been out of flying for about 10 years now, and haven't looked at PPRUNE since 2010. After reading the posts in this thread, I remember why I lost interest. Small mindedness still reigns supreme among the majority of posters here. Dick made a valid point, but instead of trying to debate that point, emotive rhetoric is the preferred weapon, usually directed at the man instead of the subject. The world is in the mess we see today because too many have been content to accept small injustices, inconveniences, and inefficiencies, particularly if it didn't impact upon them personally. For your own benefit, don't bother responding violently to this post, because I won't see it. Spend some time and energy on being a representative of God, because that is how many people view pilots. And stop being selfish A holes. 
