25 years of holding at Williamtown
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NT
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ozbiggles is correct, I believe. From discussions with AAA members it seems that the military pays for the use of those airports on the basis of 'fair wear tear'. As for Mr B, I suspect it's just a red too many - he doesn't seem like a bad bloke.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Near TownTown
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Defence forces can do what they do essentially in 2 ways. Via 'exclusive' access which is the 'good old US of A' model, or via shared access.
This relates to all things, land, seaways, airports etc.
In Oz, the models are generally shared, and as such (and like in WWII) the community shares the resposibility of defence. This is because we are simply too small to have the duplicated infrastructure the US has.
In my comment I stated the 'shared' airports i have operated from, darwin and Tvl, work really well. I wasn't actually criticising the system at newcastle, except I think it is too tightly controlled and could be open to more traffic. What I criticised was the 'remember civvies are guests' comment, which I found arrogant and misdirected.
There are 'special' areas that cannot be shared, obviously. But Willietown, Richmond and even places like Amberly and Pearce are probably not amongst these.
This relates to all things, land, seaways, airports etc.
In Oz, the models are generally shared, and as such (and like in WWII) the community shares the resposibility of defence. This is because we are simply too small to have the duplicated infrastructure the US has.
In my comment I stated the 'shared' airports i have operated from, darwin and Tvl, work really well. I wasn't actually criticising the system at newcastle, except I think it is too tightly controlled and could be open to more traffic. What I criticised was the 'remember civvies are guests' comment, which I found arrogant and misdirected.
There are 'special' areas that cannot be shared, obviously. But Willietown, Richmond and even places like Amberly and Pearce are probably not amongst these.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are 'special' areas that cannot be shared, obviously. But Willietown, Richmond and even places like Amberly and Pearce are probably not amongst these.
When was the last time you flew into Pearce during the week?
You sure you want lighties mixing it with a circuit full of PC9s, PC21s and Hawks?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Near TownTown
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CSD
Who mentioned lighties??? Twas not I
Shared can mean many things, in Tvl I 'mix it' with a circuit full of FA-18s quite regularly and with good ATC, uneventfully.
In the 'olden days' it was a regular occurence for lighties to 'mix it' with a circuit full of Mirages, including drogie vans on the runway, and again with good ATC, quite uneventfully.
Pearce is possibly at the extreme end of the 'possible' range, but Amberly and Edinburgh are essentiall dead these days and Willietown is a lot like Townsville.
What about Holsworthy??? Or Jervis Bay. Or Nowra. Pretty much empty of air movements but still 'locked' to the general public.
Why is that???
Who mentioned lighties??? Twas not I
Shared can mean many things, in Tvl I 'mix it' with a circuit full of FA-18s quite regularly and with good ATC, uneventfully.In the 'olden days' it was a regular occurence for lighties to 'mix it' with a circuit full of Mirages, including drogie vans on the runway, and again with good ATC, quite uneventfully.
Pearce is possibly at the extreme end of the 'possible' range, but Amberly and Edinburgh are essentiall dead these days and Willietown is a lot like Townsville.
What about Holsworthy??? Or Jervis Bay. Or Nowra. Pretty much empty of air movements but still 'locked' to the general public.
Why is that???
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah Brewster I'll take a hit for the earlier comment.
But
This couldn't be further from the truth. Having flown extensively at both i can assure you that they are not the same. Townsville is almost exclusively civilian with 5avn and 38sqn playing second fiddle to civvie ops, and thats okay by me. Same at Darwin go for your life.
But diluting the Willietown airspace with more RPT and throw on top of that lighties who might want to fly over just for a look or to say they flew with some Hornets is not gonna work.
Have Holsworthy, have Jervis bay, have Richmond and please take Nowra, but leave the two premier fighter bases, the largest soon to be super base and three of the busiest training bases in the country alone.
But
Willietown is a lot like Townsville
I think it is too tightly controlled and could be open to more traffic.
Have Holsworthy, have Jervis bay, have Richmond and please take Nowra, but leave the two premier fighter bases, the largest soon to be super base and three of the busiest training bases in the country alone.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Lake Munmorah
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MDX
Hi Dick, with all the media attention focused on this missing A/C MDX now is a good time as any to get a forum going and place all the cards on the table and try solve the MDX mystery and perhaps change a few thing for the better when it comes to safety. I met Ken Price in the 90's when I operated out of Bankstown.
I could not help but be moved by his story and as a direct result I conducted a detailed private investigation into the incident and conducted a private air search for MDX. From what I remember there was a radar contact with MDX last known position 90 seconds before impact. Which gives a refined search area.
One thing that I feel every investigation has missed to date. If you listen to the audio transmission from MDX and you are experienced on the aircraft type C210 I think you can hear the cabin door pop ajar due to dynamic airflow over the air frame which could indicate high airspeed and given the circumstances a very high probability of a grave yard spiral.
I suspect MDX has banked either right of left without an AH as the vacuum pump was US and it last resting place is close to it last radar lock. I recall working out the rate of decent for it last known altitude and taken into account the height of the terrain in the area and the rate of decent was consistent with a spiral dive.
The pilot’s voice sounded like it was also operating under high G load which is also consistent with the grave yard spiral theory. Also I have somewhere in my files a statement from a Captain flying a RPT in the area that night expressing his view that the RAAF controller actions was a major contributing factor to the cause of the crash.
This is not about bashing the RAAF but trying to learn from past mistakes and prevent history from repeating itself.
Regards
Baz01
I could not help but be moved by his story and as a direct result I conducted a detailed private investigation into the incident and conducted a private air search for MDX. From what I remember there was a radar contact with MDX last known position 90 seconds before impact. Which gives a refined search area.
One thing that I feel every investigation has missed to date. If you listen to the audio transmission from MDX and you are experienced on the aircraft type C210 I think you can hear the cabin door pop ajar due to dynamic airflow over the air frame which could indicate high airspeed and given the circumstances a very high probability of a grave yard spiral.
I suspect MDX has banked either right of left without an AH as the vacuum pump was US and it last resting place is close to it last radar lock. I recall working out the rate of decent for it last known altitude and taken into account the height of the terrain in the area and the rate of decent was consistent with a spiral dive.
The pilot’s voice sounded like it was also operating under high G load which is also consistent with the grave yard spiral theory. Also I have somewhere in my files a statement from a Captain flying a RPT in the area that night expressing his view that the RAAF controller actions was a major contributing factor to the cause of the crash.
This is not about bashing the RAAF but trying to learn from past mistakes and prevent history from repeating itself.
Regards
Baz01
Thread Starter
Baz. Why was the aircraft over the Barrington tops instead of the more direct and safer route down the coast?
One reason alone- the RAAF airspace in the area.
If it was designed like the US or UK military airspace aircraft would be able to overfly above 5000'.
I wonder how many more lives will be lost before the military adopt the most modern airspace design and procedures.
One reason alone- the RAAF airspace in the area.
If it was designed like the US or UK military airspace aircraft would be able to overfly above 5000'.
I wonder how many more lives will be lost before the military adopt the most modern airspace design and procedures.
'Baz' I would imagine that the authorities woud have covered all of what you say as to the A/C's plotted trk from it's last +ID. Remember that the C210 which has a lousy Turb Pen Spd might very well have lost both wing panels (hence possibly that 'pop' you heard) & gone in at a very high speed like an arrow & disappeared below the dense jungle leaving little to no trace of broken upper foliage lost forever (as we know thus far)especially if the point of impact was on a steep slope, highly probable. The two wing panels may have floated for some distance well away from the main wreckage & indeed we may not actually be looking for a whole aircraft as we know it.This could also account for why there was no fire or one that could be seen anyway 'cause if the wings had been torn off there would have been stuff all fuel to feed a fire upon impact, all guessing of course but plausible.
God I wish it could be found for all concerned.
Wmk2
God I wish it could be found for all concerned.
Wmk2
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Downunda
Posts: 562
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A suggestion
Hi Dick,
Mate, just a suggestion. You are very very passionate about this topic, which is excellent. Add to that passion of yours the hard earned wealth that you have accumulated and then add again the apparent knowledge, skill and background of some of the other posters on this site and you have the potential to secure a formidable team that could come together, combine their knowledge and skills, then along with Dicks willingness to finance a search and/or new investigation could see this debate put to bed by having the mystery potentially solved? If that were the case you could probably then pen a book about all of this Dick, and recover some of your outlay? This is a serious suggestion, not a piss take. You are probably one of the very few who could pull this off. I am sure some of those who are overtly passionate about this particular accident would be willing to contribute some of their personal time. And perhaps some other sources would chip a few dollars into the tin to help out.
The greater satisfaction would come from solving this mystery and helping grieving families and their friends find closure. No amount of money is too much when humans are involved. Would you consider it Dick?
Mate, just a suggestion. You are very very passionate about this topic, which is excellent. Add to that passion of yours the hard earned wealth that you have accumulated and then add again the apparent knowledge, skill and background of some of the other posters on this site and you have the potential to secure a formidable team that could come together, combine their knowledge and skills, then along with Dicks willingness to finance a search and/or new investigation could see this debate put to bed by having the mystery potentially solved? If that were the case you could probably then pen a book about all of this Dick, and recover some of your outlay? This is a serious suggestion, not a piss take. You are probably one of the very few who could pull this off. I am sure some of those who are overtly passionate about this particular accident would be willing to contribute some of their personal time. And perhaps some other sources would chip a few dollars into the tin to help out.
The greater satisfaction would come from solving this mystery and helping grieving families and their friends find closure. No amount of money is too much when humans are involved. Would you consider it Dick?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why was the aircraft over the Barrington tops instead of the more direct and safer route down the coast?
Knowing that the aircraft’s gyro systems were suspect, why did the pilot nevertheless elect to continue at night over inhospitable terrain?
Given the forecast bad weather and the fact that the aircraft instrumentation was known to be unreliable why did the pilot launch in the first place? MDX was not denied access through Williamtown's airspace, he was instructed to remain OCTA until a clearance was available.
Keep having a go at yourself "mate"! Im sure you can pull it off yourself.
May be four years late, but as I'm sick of 'RAAF bashing':
When was the last time you flew into Temora during a flying weekend? Lighties mixing it with a circuit full of Canberra bombers, jets and Spitfires, is quiet normal.
What about Holsworthy??? Or Jervis Bay. Or Nowra. Pretty much empty of air movements but still 'locked' to the general public.
What about Holsworthy??? Or Jervis Bay. Or Nowra. Pretty much empty of air movements but still 'locked' to the general public.
The airspace at Holsworthy, Jervis Bay and Nowra is active when it’s needed and the de-activated. How is this ‘locked’ to the general public? What about the permanently active restricted airspaces around such non-military facilities as Parkes, Narrabri, Tidbinbilla or the Warrambungles?
The airspace at Holsworthy, Jervis Bay and Nowra is active when it’s needed and the de-activated. How is this ‘locked’ to the general public? What about the permanently active restricted airspaces around such non-military facilities as Parkes, Narrabri, Tidbinbilla or the Warrambungles?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Victoria
Age: 62
Posts: 984
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, well I took Brewster's comments as referring to flight through the associated restricted airspaces.
However considering the case you mentioned of a non-military aircraft landing at these airfields, yes it can be done given prior permission as detailed in ERSA. There are some non-military airfields that require prior permission before landing as well.
However considering the case you mentioned of a non-military aircraft landing at these airfields, yes it can be done given prior permission as detailed in ERSA. There are some non-military airfields that require prior permission before landing as well.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a Sydney controller, im sorry but holsworthy constantly has 6000 codes buzzing in there, the majority of it would be within the class C steps anyway, lighties out of bankstown wanting to use that particular corridor of airspace even with no holsworthy there, sorry but you arent getting a clearance, bigger fish to fry.
With regards to Willie, with international flights starting next year, the airport is going to get busier rather than quieter, RPT aircraft already struggle to meet the 9000 foot step at 25 DME into WLM as is, if anything, the domestic part of the airspace will have to be increased as time goes on.
WRT the recent Channel 7 documentry, I have no clue how any reasonable pilot looks at the scenario that happened and thought the PIC's actions were reasonable. I am sorry but he crashed due to his actions and poor risk assessments, not ATC's lack of a clearance.
Having worked at WLM, the only time I have ever seen a clearance denied (or been told to deny by higher ups) was when there was a sequence happening and clearance for said aircraft would have required the sequence to stop. Obviously that doesnt happen, AIP heirachy of priorities needs to be applied and as such, unplanned VFR aircraft are extremely low on the priority scale at WLM or any controlled airspace, basically, if you havent taken the time (and courtesy) to let me know you are coming, I can just as easily sherk my responsibility and deny you a clearance.
Lastly, having seen this thread necro'd and with DS's gripe at not being able to fly his citation in RVSM airspace because he doesnt have ADS-B and wantint to inconvenience every other airspace user whilst he gets what he wants, havent we worked out that Dick is the biggest forum troll on this forum? He does things just to get a reaction, he doesnt get the reaction he wants to he goes running to any poor news source that will publish what he says.
Dick Smith knows absolutely zero about modern day aviation, please ignore him.
With regards to Willie, with international flights starting next year, the airport is going to get busier rather than quieter, RPT aircraft already struggle to meet the 9000 foot step at 25 DME into WLM as is, if anything, the domestic part of the airspace will have to be increased as time goes on.
WRT the recent Channel 7 documentry, I have no clue how any reasonable pilot looks at the scenario that happened and thought the PIC's actions were reasonable. I am sorry but he crashed due to his actions and poor risk assessments, not ATC's lack of a clearance.
Having worked at WLM, the only time I have ever seen a clearance denied (or been told to deny by higher ups) was when there was a sequence happening and clearance for said aircraft would have required the sequence to stop. Obviously that doesnt happen, AIP heirachy of priorities needs to be applied and as such, unplanned VFR aircraft are extremely low on the priority scale at WLM or any controlled airspace, basically, if you havent taken the time (and courtesy) to let me know you are coming, I can just as easily sherk my responsibility and deny you a clearance.
Lastly, having seen this thread necro'd and with DS's gripe at not being able to fly his citation in RVSM airspace because he doesnt have ADS-B and wantint to inconvenience every other airspace user whilst he gets what he wants, havent we worked out that Dick is the biggest forum troll on this forum? He does things just to get a reaction, he doesnt get the reaction he wants to he goes running to any poor news source that will publish what he says.
Dick Smith knows absolutely zero about modern day aviation, please ignore him.
Thread Starter
Duane. I have received an email from a pilot who flys regularly through the Willy coastal lane ( or attempts to !)
He claims that in the last two years 90% of his flights have been held between 5 mins and 30 mins.
Drive you insane this would. If the RAAF followed the CASA recommendation of four years ago it would be D airspace and holding would be dramatically reduced.
But no one can make a decision. I bet the morale is low.
He claims that in the last two years 90% of his flights have been held between 5 mins and 30 mins.
Drive you insane this would. If the RAAF followed the CASA recommendation of four years ago it would be D airspace and holding would be dramatically reduced.
But no one can make a decision. I bet the morale is low.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dick Smith knows absolutely zero about modern day aviation, please ignore him.
I counted 6 aircraft on the register.
Duane are you sure you aren't part of the problem??
Six year old thread...