25 years of holding at Williamtown
Thread Starter
CaptainMidnight, why would the general public want aircraft being held orbiting at 500 feet over a busy beach? Surely they would understand that if there was a chance of an engine failure or some other problem, the aircraft may have to land on the beach and could injure or kill people.
Klaus Fuchs, I’m simply stating the facts and there is nothing slanderous about that. Also, I was told by certain military people in Canberra that changes would be made – as they themselves believed that the changes were necessary.
When the changes didn’t go ahead, why didn’t they at least have the ethics to state why? That is what most people would do.
The tower may “own” the circuit area, however it doesn’t “own” the airspace to the first control step – which is at an amazing 24 miles. I suggest you look at the Jepp charts around the world and see if you can find “tower airspace” which goes to 24 miles at ground level. I’m not talking about restricted airspace, I’m talking about the airspace they activate when they have no military operations at all, but are simply providing a service to a Metro.
It is amazing how you defend the status quo. In other words, there is not the slightest hint that we could actually look at doing it better.
Maggott17, once again I am not referring to being held because of military traffic. I’m talking about being held because of a Metro. This is the same type of aircraft operating at many CTAFs in Australia without air traffic control, in obviously high levels of safety – receiving self-announced traffic information broadcasts.
I point out that if the tower airspace was Class D and went to the control zone boundary, a traffic information service would be all that is required under ICAO.
Klaus Fuchs, I’m simply stating the facts and there is nothing slanderous about that. Also, I was told by certain military people in Canberra that changes would be made – as they themselves believed that the changes were necessary.
When the changes didn’t go ahead, why didn’t they at least have the ethics to state why? That is what most people would do.
The tower may “own” the circuit area, however it doesn’t “own” the airspace to the first control step – which is at an amazing 24 miles. I suggest you look at the Jepp charts around the world and see if you can find “tower airspace” which goes to 24 miles at ground level. I’m not talking about restricted airspace, I’m talking about the airspace they activate when they have no military operations at all, but are simply providing a service to a Metro.
It is amazing how you defend the status quo. In other words, there is not the slightest hint that we could actually look at doing it better.
Maggott17, once again I am not referring to being held because of military traffic. I’m talking about being held because of a Metro. This is the same type of aircraft operating at many CTAFs in Australia without air traffic control, in obviously high levels of safety – receiving self-announced traffic information broadcasts.
I point out that if the tower airspace was Class D and went to the control zone boundary, a traffic information service would be all that is required under ICAO.
Thread Starter
5 died rather than hold at Williamtown
Some will probably remember hearing of the horrific accident on 9 August 1981, where a Cessna 210 with an instrument rated pilot with a senior commercial licence was forced to fly in bad weather around the Williamtown restricted area. The BASI report is here.
Particularly note that the aircraft was flying from Coolangatta to Bankstown – which would normally take it through Williamtown – however the pilot flight planned inland via Craven, Singleton and Mr McQuoid “in order to avoid controlled and military restricted areas surrounding Williamtown.”
The poor pilot, no doubt thinking of his soon to be doomed passengers, attempted to get a clearance through the Williamtown zone. Now imagine the situation. Terrible weather, knowing that you are going to be forced into the turbulence in the lee of Barrington Tops – when you could fly at low level down the coast.
At one stage it was arranged for him to get a clearance through Williamtown, but then:
(My underlining).
Everyone died and the plane and bodies have never been found. Have a look at this letter from a retired NSW Police Officer who spent many years searching for the bodies so that the families could have closure. Note that this letter was written on 18 July 2005. Since then, Peter Anforth has died.
I will ask a question. If it had been the Chief of the Air Force who had gone missing over Barrington Tops, do you think money would have been spent on finding the crash site and his body? Too right - just as a large amount of money was correctly spent in Fiji recovering the Black Hawk helicopter which crashed off the back of HMAS Kanimbla.
It is interesting that over 25 years ago a pilot was prepared to fly in a far more dangerous situation because he obviously knew that he could be held in orbits in bad weather waiting for a clearance that he may never get.
Yes, there are certainly people in Canberra who have blood on their hands. I wonder how many more accidents (such as the small plane that was forced down into the water near Port Stephens – luckily without loss of life) will happen before modern international procedures are introduced.
Particularly note that the aircraft was flying from Coolangatta to Bankstown – which would normally take it through Williamtown – however the pilot flight planned inland via Craven, Singleton and Mr McQuoid “in order to avoid controlled and military restricted areas surrounding Williamtown.”
The poor pilot, no doubt thinking of his soon to be doomed passengers, attempted to get a clearance through the Williamtown zone. Now imagine the situation. Terrible weather, knowing that you are going to be forced into the turbulence in the lee of Barrington Tops – when you could fly at low level down the coast.
At one stage it was arranged for him to get a clearance through Williamtown, but then:
Some 8 minutes after passing Taree the pilot advised that he would continue on his planned track rather than hold to the north of Williamtown pending the issue of a clearance.
Everyone died and the plane and bodies have never been found. Have a look at this letter from a retired NSW Police Officer who spent many years searching for the bodies so that the families could have closure. Note that this letter was written on 18 July 2005. Since then, Peter Anforth has died.
I will ask a question. If it had been the Chief of the Air Force who had gone missing over Barrington Tops, do you think money would have been spent on finding the crash site and his body? Too right - just as a large amount of money was correctly spent in Fiji recovering the Black Hawk helicopter which crashed off the back of HMAS Kanimbla.
It is interesting that over 25 years ago a pilot was prepared to fly in a far more dangerous situation because he obviously knew that he could be held in orbits in bad weather waiting for a clearance that he may never get.
Yes, there are certainly people in Canberra who have blood on their hands. I wonder how many more accidents (such as the small plane that was forced down into the water near Port Stephens – luckily without loss of life) will happen before modern international procedures are introduced.
Last edited by Dick Smith; 18th Jan 2008 at 04:18.
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Dick what is your agenda here? 
This is your second thread on this and I'm not sure whether you are interested in pursuing senior Air Force officers for their 'incompetence', or an air space issue at 1 geographical point where you have had to personally hold for clearance.
This is your second thread on this and I'm not sure whether you are interested in pursuing senior Air Force officers for their 'incompetence', or an air space issue at 1 geographical point where you have had to personally hold for clearance.
"... was forced to fly in bad weather around the Williamtown restricted area"
Oh come on Dick, why do you do this?
I am not averse to giving ATC the occassional serve when I feel that I have been treated less than reasonably (and don't get me started on CASA), but YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY BLAME ATC FOR THIS ACCIDENT.
I remember it well, and I remember thinking at the time that the pilot's decision making appearred to be terribly flawed.
A single engine aircraft, with minimal redundancy provision, at night, flying on a NGT VFR plan, above the freezing level, with moderate icing forcast in cloud, and a current SIGMET for severe turbulence east of the ranges - and he opts to fly over the Barrington Tops cause he can't get an immediate clearance through Williamstown?????
It would seem to me that the only sensible place for that aeroplane at that time of day, in those conditions - was on the ground.
This appears to be a classic case of "got to get there -itis".
It also illustrates why, inspite of the many sensible things you come out with in support of GA in Oz, your credibility with the industry is pretty sus.
I fly some pretty hard core SE IFR in the Bo, but I would NOT have made that flight!
Dr
Oh come on Dick, why do you do this?
I am not averse to giving ATC the occassional serve when I feel that I have been treated less than reasonably (and don't get me started on CASA), but YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY BLAME ATC FOR THIS ACCIDENT.
I remember it well, and I remember thinking at the time that the pilot's decision making appearred to be terribly flawed.
A single engine aircraft, with minimal redundancy provision, at night, flying on a NGT VFR plan, above the freezing level, with moderate icing forcast in cloud, and a current SIGMET for severe turbulence east of the ranges - and he opts to fly over the Barrington Tops cause he can't get an immediate clearance through Williamstown?????
It would seem to me that the only sensible place for that aeroplane at that time of day, in those conditions - was on the ground.
This appears to be a classic case of "got to get there -itis".
It also illustrates why, inspite of the many sensible things you come out with in support of GA in Oz, your credibility with the industry is pretty sus.
I fly some pretty hard core SE IFR in the Bo, but I would NOT have made that flight!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 18th Jan 2008 at 03:12.
I have held a licence for 46 years. Old - but current!
If my memory serves correctly, the Class 3 Instrument Rating was limited to Outside Controlled Airspace. Perhaps this had some bearing on the pilot's decision.............
Otherwise, FTDK's post nailed it right between the eyes.
If my memory serves correctly, the Class 3 Instrument Rating was limited to Outside Controlled Airspace. Perhaps this had some bearing on the pilot's decision.............
Otherwise, FTDK's post nailed it right between the eyes.
"If my memory serves correctly, the Class 3 Instrument Rating was limited to Outside Controlled Airspace"
Thanks Rotorhead! I've been at this for 35 years - had the Class 1, Class 2 and Class 4 nailed, but be damned if I could recall what the Class 3 was all about.
Dr
Thanks Rotorhead! I've been at this for 35 years - had the Class 1, Class 2 and Class 4 nailed, but be damned if I could recall what the Class 3 was all about.
Dr
Thread Starter
Botero, you say:
My agenda is straightforward if you will open your mind. That is, to get proper procedures introduced into Australia so aircraft do not have to flight plan unnecessarily around military airspace. I can afford the added cost of the holding – many can’t.
It is not covered by the BASI report but I was told at the time that the pilot would have known that the chance of getting a VFR clearance through that airspace was almost nil.
ForkTailedDrKiller, I’m not giving ATC a serve at all. I’m giving a serve to the people who are in charge of bringing in modern airspace and procedures into Australia. I have been told a number of times by senior military people that they agree that the procedures are out of date and they have informed me that the procedures would be updated. These people were fibbing as there has been no measurable change.
People lost their lives in this horrific accident and it could happen again tomorrow because most VFR pilots coming in from the north would not even dare to request a clearance through the Williamtown zone.
Of course, you cannot fly the VFR lane under Night VFR procedures.
Why has no effort been made to locate the plane and recover the pilots so the relatives can have closure? Surely they must have a pretty exact radar position on where the plane went down.
I also point out that the pilot had a senior commercial licence and over 3,000 hours.
Dick what is your agenda here?
It is not covered by the BASI report but I was told at the time that the pilot would have known that the chance of getting a VFR clearance through that airspace was almost nil.
ForkTailedDrKiller, I’m not giving ATC a serve at all. I’m giving a serve to the people who are in charge of bringing in modern airspace and procedures into Australia. I have been told a number of times by senior military people that they agree that the procedures are out of date and they have informed me that the procedures would be updated. These people were fibbing as there has been no measurable change.
People lost their lives in this horrific accident and it could happen again tomorrow because most VFR pilots coming in from the north would not even dare to request a clearance through the Williamtown zone.
Of course, you cannot fly the VFR lane under Night VFR procedures.
Why has no effort been made to locate the plane and recover the pilots so the relatives can have closure? Surely they must have a pretty exact radar position on where the plane went down.
I also point out that the pilot had a senior commercial licence and over 3,000 hours.
Thread Starter
Ancient Rotorhead, if it did have a bearing on the pilot’s decision, that can only be because he was fearful that he would not get a VFR clearance through the Williamtown zone along the coast. Why else would he have flight planned VFR to the west of Williamtown where the weather was obviously worse?
I met an American couple once who tried to get a VFR clearance through Williamtown above 5,000 feet on a CAVOK day. They said it was like Oliver asking for more. They were forced to drop to 500 feet into the salt spray and fly the lane.
Yes, when the “A team” is on you may get a VFR clearance through the Willy zone, but that is problematic. In a British MATZ or in US military Class C you would fly across the top VFR with no restrictions.
Why would that bloke have ever wanted to go inland towards the bad weather if he had thought for a second that he would have been able to fly VFR along the coast above the lowest safe altitude? The answer is simple – he knew it was highly unlikely.
I met an American couple once who tried to get a VFR clearance through Williamtown above 5,000 feet on a CAVOK day. They said it was like Oliver asking for more. They were forced to drop to 500 feet into the salt spray and fly the lane.
Yes, when the “A team” is on you may get a VFR clearance through the Willy zone, but that is problematic. In a British MATZ or in US military Class C you would fly across the top VFR with no restrictions.
Why would that bloke have ever wanted to go inland towards the bad weather if he had thought for a second that he would have been able to fly VFR along the coast above the lowest safe altitude? The answer is simple – he knew it was highly unlikely.
"... I was told at the time that the pilot would have known that the chance of getting a VFR clearance through that airspace was almost nil"
then the aircraft should have stayed on the ground at Coolangatta or landed at Taree. Tracking over the Barrington Tops in those forecast conditions was NOT a viable option.
Forcast freezing level below the Lowest Safe Altitude is a NO GO flag for me!
I have never transited Williamstown airspace IFR, VFR or any R - but I cut my teeth in Amberley airspace and have plenty of experience with Townsville military control. There was certainly a period some years ago when a single military aircraft appearing on the radar meant that the VFR riff-raff were sent hell, west and crooked. I recall one day when I was lined up on the extended centreline of 07 about 20 miles out in C210, when a low level Herc called up on the appr freq inbound - I eventually landed 30 minutes latter. However, overall I would have to say that I have had very few problems with military control.
Having to go around the restricted areas to the west of Townsville when active is a pain for both VFR and IFR traffic - but they are shooting stuff out there!
Sorry, but if Joe pilot can't afford to fly a slight diversion or do a couple of orbits when required, there is always LSA!
Dr
then the aircraft should have stayed on the ground at Coolangatta or landed at Taree. Tracking over the Barrington Tops in those forecast conditions was NOT a viable option.
Forcast freezing level below the Lowest Safe Altitude is a NO GO flag for me!
I have never transited Williamstown airspace IFR, VFR or any R - but I cut my teeth in Amberley airspace and have plenty of experience with Townsville military control. There was certainly a period some years ago when a single military aircraft appearing on the radar meant that the VFR riff-raff were sent hell, west and crooked. I recall one day when I was lined up on the extended centreline of 07 about 20 miles out in C210, when a low level Herc called up on the appr freq inbound - I eventually landed 30 minutes latter. However, overall I would have to say that I have had very few problems with military control.
Having to go around the restricted areas to the west of Townsville when active is a pain for both VFR and IFR traffic - but they are shooting stuff out there!
Sorry, but if Joe pilot can't afford to fly a slight diversion or do a couple of orbits when required, there is always LSA!
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 18th Jan 2008 at 05:31.
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MDX
I normally just reserve myself to reading these forums, but Dick, your comment of 'Why has no effort been made to find the remains' has left me utterly gobsmacked!
I normally don't have a problem with you. People are bound to winge about people in high public profile positions, and have always taken the people who critisie you with a grain of salt, but when you say things like that, I feel I must say something.
Firstly, if you had ever spoken to Peter, (I had, on several occaisions regarding MDX) you would have been WELL aware that a signifigant SAR effort was undertaken at the time, and various communtiy groups continue to this day to undertake searchs to this day for the remains. A simple google search would have told you this information. To say that no effort has been made is ignorant in the extreme. I have read many government, police and private reports, research and interviews regarding the disappearance of MDX, and the BASI report is the thinest and briefest one of them all. One such report compiled by the late Mr Anforth contained all known information and was regularly updated until his death of places that have been searched. It contained all known interviews with locals that heard the plane, the ATC transcript and the last known radar posistion, which is not considered where the aircraft came down, due to Radar shadowing effects associated with the Barrington Tops (Although this site has been searched regardless).
You complain that not enough has been done. Surely you as a person of influence and independant means could organise your own search. I have maintained for many years that even if the aircraft was destroyed by impact forces and fire, there should be enough ferrous metal in the engine to be detected by some sort of helo-boune magnometer or such other instrument(of course, i could be totally wrong in this assertion).
I would suggest you obtain a copy of Mr Anforths research and read it before making any further comments about the lamenatable end to final flight of VH-MDX.
I normally don't have a problem with you. People are bound to winge about people in high public profile positions, and have always taken the people who critisie you with a grain of salt, but when you say things like that, I feel I must say something.
Firstly, if you had ever spoken to Peter, (I had, on several occaisions regarding MDX) you would have been WELL aware that a signifigant SAR effort was undertaken at the time, and various communtiy groups continue to this day to undertake searchs to this day for the remains. A simple google search would have told you this information. To say that no effort has been made is ignorant in the extreme. I have read many government, police and private reports, research and interviews regarding the disappearance of MDX, and the BASI report is the thinest and briefest one of them all. One such report compiled by the late Mr Anforth contained all known information and was regularly updated until his death of places that have been searched. It contained all known interviews with locals that heard the plane, the ATC transcript and the last known radar posistion, which is not considered where the aircraft came down, due to Radar shadowing effects associated with the Barrington Tops (Although this site has been searched regardless).
You complain that not enough has been done. Surely you as a person of influence and independant means could organise your own search. I have maintained for many years that even if the aircraft was destroyed by impact forces and fire, there should be enough ferrous metal in the engine to be detected by some sort of helo-boune magnometer or such other instrument(of course, i could be totally wrong in this assertion).
I would suggest you obtain a copy of Mr Anforths research and read it before making any further comments about the lamenatable end to final flight of VH-MDX.
"... most VFR pilots coming in from the north would not even dare to request a clearance through the Williamtown zone"
Is this just a training issue?
Maybe every VFR pilot coming in from north or south SHOULD request a clearance - to make a point.
Dr
Is this just a training issue?
Maybe every VFR pilot coming in from north or south SHOULD request a clearance - to make a point.
Dr
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1976 in a B33 denied clearance.
1978 in a Grumman Tiger denied clearance.
1978 in a PA-32 denied clearance.
One of these flights was NVFR after a flight plan lodged 5 hours prior. Another, a weekend day VFR when a glider was flying. The other I think was just barstardisation toward GA.
31 years, and I still wouldn't trust the troglodytes at Williamtown Dick.
1978 in a Grumman Tiger denied clearance.
1978 in a PA-32 denied clearance.
One of these flights was NVFR after a flight plan lodged 5 hours prior. Another, a weekend day VFR when a glider was flying. The other I think was just barstardisation toward GA.
31 years, and I still wouldn't trust the troglodytes at Williamtown Dick.
I remember the night of the accident as I was flying an Aero-Med B80 from Sydney to Dubbo, my aircraft was fitted with boots and hot-props etc. Cloud tops on the initial track to Mudgee were about 8,000 feet with moderate icing encountered. I can only assume that the track from Taree to Singleton would have presented similar conditions, I was surprised when I heard of the missing 210 on the news the next day, it wasn't a night for S.E. flying unless the aircraft was fitted with full ice protection. Hopefully one day someone will stumble over the wreckage to give closure to the families, but in the case of "The Southern Cloud" lost in The Snowy Mountains, I think nearly 30 years elapsed before the wreckage was found.
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Actually, one of the pax was Ken Price, Deputy head of the Sydney water Police at the time of his disappearance.
Some believe that it was possible that it could have crashed in the Chicester Resivoir further to the south and east.
Some believe that it was possible that it could have crashed in the Chicester Resivoir further to the south and east.
Last edited by RatsoreA; 18th Jan 2008 at 06:25. Reason: Further comments added
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No-one has to do anything!!
"The least experienced press on, while the more experienced turn back to join the most experienced who didn't take-off in the first place".
Likewise, modern day "adventurers" should pay huge insurance premiums to help defray the costs of rescue when they drop out of their depth! If you want to take risks don't EXPECT help when it all turns to sh1t!
GAGS
E86
PS I've spent 40 plus years in the rescue business!
PPS As an aside - there are some interesting rumours about this flight!
"The least experienced press on, while the more experienced turn back to join the most experienced who didn't take-off in the first place".
Likewise, modern day "adventurers" should pay huge insurance premiums to help defray the costs of rescue when they drop out of their depth! If you want to take risks don't EXPECT help when it all turns to sh1t!
GAGS
E86
PS I've spent 40 plus years in the rescue business!
PPS As an aside - there are some interesting rumours about this flight!
"I’m not giving ATC a serve at all. I’m giving a serve to the people who are in charge of bringing in modern airspace and procedures into Australia."
OK Dick, I apologise for misinterpreting your intent.
None-the-less, I think you picked a very poor example to illustrate your point!
Dr
OK Dick, I apologise for misinterpreting your intent.
None-the-less, I think you picked a very poor example to illustrate your point!
Dr
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http://vhmdx.*************/2007_11_01_archive.html
Go here for a unbiased factual account of what happened.
For some reason, it keeps removing the address. The ***'s are ******** . com
Go here for a unbiased factual account of what happened.
For some reason, it keeps removing the address. The ***'s are ******** . com
Last edited by RatsoreA; 18th Jan 2008 at 07:20. Reason: text missing
Mr Smith and Mr Hat
Thankyou for providing the brief accident report. The one that states the clearance was delayed as ATC tried to ascertain what the weather was like in the area they were going to clear the aircraft through. PLEASE point out to me where it says it was delayed due to any other reason that might back up your cause. In fact it seems to me that ATC both civil and military may have been trying to help this pilot out rather than see any harm come to them, to suggest anything else is in my honest opinion is disgusting.
As a military pilot I have been involved in SAR and even found a crashed helicopter on one search. I have also been involved in plenty of beacon searches offering my aircraft en route. Every military person involved in aviation I know would continue a SAR until they dropped, the same as any civilian pilot. Im sure every effort in the world was made to find this aircraft and the people in it. Even if you and Mr Hat were in it.
We would get involved in many more if we could but we are not asked to.
I really do suggest you take this up with the people in Canberra privately, because every time you air your agenda here you just insult a lot of people who pride themselves on their service for their country.
Thankyou for providing the brief accident report. The one that states the clearance was delayed as ATC tried to ascertain what the weather was like in the area they were going to clear the aircraft through. PLEASE point out to me where it says it was delayed due to any other reason that might back up your cause. In fact it seems to me that ATC both civil and military may have been trying to help this pilot out rather than see any harm come to them, to suggest anything else is in my honest opinion is disgusting.
As a military pilot I have been involved in SAR and even found a crashed helicopter on one search. I have also been involved in plenty of beacon searches offering my aircraft en route. Every military person involved in aviation I know would continue a SAR until they dropped, the same as any civilian pilot. Im sure every effort in the world was made to find this aircraft and the people in it. Even if you and Mr Hat were in it.
We would get involved in many more if we could but we are not asked to.
I really do suggest you take this up with the people in Canberra privately, because every time you air your agenda here you just insult a lot of people who pride themselves on their service for their country.
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Dick,
Would you please give this a rest. Its Williamtown Air Force Base. Note its an AIR FORCE BASE. If you have to hold for a few minutes, take along a can of Harden-Up and drink it while your waiting.
Would you please give this a rest. Its Williamtown Air Force Base. Note its an AIR FORCE BASE. If you have to hold for a few minutes, take along a can of Harden-Up and drink it while your waiting.