RAAF pilots leaving
You raise a interesting point PAF
One of the greatest frauds (IMHO) was that bit of paper. It gave all the reasons for signing ie gurantee your job etc etc, but didn't EVER make any mention of why you shouldn't sign ie access your $ at 45 if you were still a FLTLT, of course a worthy ambition I say! The only mention was you should consult an expert at your own cost of course and who has a 25yr old FLTLT would do that!
That was a major learning point in not being able to trust those in charge!!!!
One of the greatest frauds (IMHO) was that bit of paper. It gave all the reasons for signing ie gurantee your job etc etc, but didn't EVER make any mention of why you shouldn't sign ie access your $ at 45 if you were still a FLTLT, of course a worthy ambition I say! The only mention was you should consult an expert at your own cost of course and who has a 25yr old FLTLT would do that!
That was a major learning point in not being able to trust those in charge!!!!
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How bout a can of harden up
OK I appreciate the point being put across here WRT the QFI shortage.
I am a Current Army QFI (not many of us left so I may be giving myself away here) I often get the ****s with how people within the training center "dig" themselves in and resist postings out of the TC and back to the OP SQNS. The Sqn's are screaming for QFI's to continue with their training programmes, but not many want to come back to an OP role.
So my point here is if you have just enjoyed a bit of respite in a training environment (by respite I mean you have had every other weekend off and a 95% solution of your weekly trg plan for the last 2 years) then its time to get back to the Operational units. If your not up to the Sqn ROE then move on to a civi posting.
So my important points here are if your a Sqn QFI then these points are not directed to you, as I feel that we are the ones doing the hard yards. If your a TC QFI stop whining and appreciate your service allowance!
So my post is bound to piss some people off but its my point of view and I thing that the issues faced by RAAF and ARA are very similar.
I am a Current Army QFI (not many of us left so I may be giving myself away here) I often get the ****s with how people within the training center "dig" themselves in and resist postings out of the TC and back to the OP SQNS. The Sqn's are screaming for QFI's to continue with their training programmes, but not many want to come back to an OP role.
So my point here is if you have just enjoyed a bit of respite in a training environment (by respite I mean you have had every other weekend off and a 95% solution of your weekly trg plan for the last 2 years) then its time to get back to the Operational units. If your not up to the Sqn ROE then move on to a civi posting.
So my important points here are if your a Sqn QFI then these points are not directed to you, as I feel that we are the ones doing the hard yards. If your a TC QFI stop whining and appreciate your service allowance!
So my post is bound to piss some people off but its my point of view and I thing that the issues faced by RAAF and ARA are very similar.
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Yes, I also know of 2 senior SQNLDRs, one of who was destined to be a CO next, both threw the towel in over the last 2 weeks. Damning bit is that neither has a job to go to - now there's a social comment, not that we have a problem, (apparently).
Also know of 4 guys on one unit who all are at second stage interview stage with either Cathay/Qantas or both. 3 x SQNLDRs, one a senior FLTLT.
I did also hear last week that the retention bonus was being looked at again and that it was now perceived that it may have been a mistake to turn it off 2 months ago - we shall see.
Also know of 4 guys on one unit who all are at second stage interview stage with either Cathay/Qantas or both. 3 x SQNLDRs, one a senior FLTLT.
I did also hear last week that the retention bonus was being looked at again and that it was now perceived that it may have been a mistake to turn it off 2 months ago - we shall see.
Pilots must leave the RAAF between 28 and 33 yo.
This will enable:
1. You to stabilise your family life in one locality.
2. You to earn more money with the airlines.
3. Ensure that the RAAF pilot training machine is kept healthy by training more pilots to take your place.
Everybody wins...
This will enable:
1. You to stabilise your family life in one locality.
2. You to earn more money with the airlines.
3. Ensure that the RAAF pilot training machine is kept healthy by training more pilots to take your place.
Everybody wins...
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Lads,
The concept of a retention bonus is fundamentally flawed for a number of reasons.
1. They simply cannot pay a sufficient bonus to match the long term airline package. Assume that you delay movement to an airline, for every year you remain in the RAAF is a year (or more) that you are not an airline captain. The numbers have been crunched, and to match an airline package requires paying a FLTLT an AIRCDRE wage. Not going to happen !!
2. Most pilots don't leave because of the money. They leave to gain locationaly stability, to stay flying and have up to 15 days a month off. The reality is, the RAAF pay well.
3. As the flying role in the RAAF becomes more complicated, people are working much harder in all flying areas. Most see airlines as an escape from ridiculous work rate of effort. Its simply not worth the stress when there is an alternative option.
4. As senior pilot numbers fall, those that remain must work that much harder to sustain the readiness. See point 3.
5. Flying hours have fallen significantly and the line drivers get next to no flying in many squadrons.
6. The numbers of availabilities in the various ground jobs is through the roof as everyone leaves. If a senior pilot thinks he will stay flying, tell him he's dreamin'.
The RAAF is very aware of pilot motivation and knows that a retention benefit is ineffective. The reality is, 60% of pilots will leave regardless of any bonus as they want the life options airlines offer, 30% will be unable to get employment outside and have to stay in the RAAF (so a bonus is useless). The remaining 10% may be tempted to stay. Government legislation however prevents the RAAF specifically targeting this 10%. If they offer a bonus , it must be paid to all remaining. So you are paying a bonus to 40% when you are really only aiming to target 10%. Even the RAAF's appalling accounting cant justify this.
Spec aircrew, is on the other hand a good option. For some reason however, some FEGS are reluctant to implement it.
my 2cents worth
The concept of a retention bonus is fundamentally flawed for a number of reasons.
1. They simply cannot pay a sufficient bonus to match the long term airline package. Assume that you delay movement to an airline, for every year you remain in the RAAF is a year (or more) that you are not an airline captain. The numbers have been crunched, and to match an airline package requires paying a FLTLT an AIRCDRE wage. Not going to happen !!
2. Most pilots don't leave because of the money. They leave to gain locationaly stability, to stay flying and have up to 15 days a month off. The reality is, the RAAF pay well.
3. As the flying role in the RAAF becomes more complicated, people are working much harder in all flying areas. Most see airlines as an escape from ridiculous work rate of effort. Its simply not worth the stress when there is an alternative option.
4. As senior pilot numbers fall, those that remain must work that much harder to sustain the readiness. See point 3.
5. Flying hours have fallen significantly and the line drivers get next to no flying in many squadrons.
6. The numbers of availabilities in the various ground jobs is through the roof as everyone leaves. If a senior pilot thinks he will stay flying, tell him he's dreamin'.
The RAAF is very aware of pilot motivation and knows that a retention benefit is ineffective. The reality is, 60% of pilots will leave regardless of any bonus as they want the life options airlines offer, 30% will be unable to get employment outside and have to stay in the RAAF (so a bonus is useless). The remaining 10% may be tempted to stay. Government legislation however prevents the RAAF specifically targeting this 10%. If they offer a bonus , it must be paid to all remaining. So you are paying a bonus to 40% when you are really only aiming to target 10%. Even the RAAF's appalling accounting cant justify this.
Spec aircrew, is on the other hand a good option. For some reason however, some FEGS are reluctant to implement it.
my 2cents worth
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Hugh,
Not sure I entirely agree.
Cash does make a difference - obviously if we were paid $1M each we'd all stay, equally the amount required varies from individual to individual and the feeling is that we are, perhaps, underpaid compared to what's on offer outside and this needs to be remedied - the plan is that this may happen in next years pay review with the glass ceiling of PG10 increasing with perhaps tertiary quals like QFI/FCI etc. Unfortunately the volume of leavers is too large and increasing and in an effort to stem the flow a short term, and aimed bonus may help. Your point 2 is in direct conflict with your point one - we aren't paid well if there's so much more on offer outside.
Agreed, area stability becomes a player as you get older and we do need to look at it. That said in my experience DP are willing to trade - especialy now.
Point 3/4 - I don't mind the work rate, for me (and it is a personal view and not one everyone will share) I like to go to work and achieve something and I believe I'd be bored stupid after a couple of years in the airlines. I now have a number of my era re-entering the mil after 3+ years flying civil for just that reason.
Not sure either about your last point with 30% of aircrew unable to get a civi job; you'd be hard pushed to not get an airline job somewhere with 10 years plus mil time (on anything!) and an ATPL at the moment.
My unit had heard all the rumours about the bonus, also the subsequent turning off and delay to next year - the change in attitude was marked and a number actively reviewed their position because they felt undervalued. Yes, I know, dry your eyes princess. The point was that there was an expectation of a bonus and therefore the lack of it was a disincentive. The reality was that it's all been done through rumour, we need more comms on this. Shep's article in the popular aviation press on aircrew retention was just appallingly timed, he needs better advice or he needs to listen.
Not sure about you, the amount being discussed would be enough to keep me in for a further 5 years - time will tell if the amount reported is real or a furphy.
I agree entirely that if you leave it too late (and we have) then the quality guys are so far down the road of leaving that you lose them anyway. Remember we do want to lose some - the system relies on it, just not this many!
The other point is that the RAAF has always been like this, it's just this time it coincides with a worldwide airline recruitment drive and we're also bringing an unprecedented number of new airframes on line - that's not good at all.
Not sure I entirely agree.
Cash does make a difference - obviously if we were paid $1M each we'd all stay, equally the amount required varies from individual to individual and the feeling is that we are, perhaps, underpaid compared to what's on offer outside and this needs to be remedied - the plan is that this may happen in next years pay review with the glass ceiling of PG10 increasing with perhaps tertiary quals like QFI/FCI etc. Unfortunately the volume of leavers is too large and increasing and in an effort to stem the flow a short term, and aimed bonus may help. Your point 2 is in direct conflict with your point one - we aren't paid well if there's so much more on offer outside.
Agreed, area stability becomes a player as you get older and we do need to look at it. That said in my experience DP are willing to trade - especialy now.
Point 3/4 - I don't mind the work rate, for me (and it is a personal view and not one everyone will share) I like to go to work and achieve something and I believe I'd be bored stupid after a couple of years in the airlines. I now have a number of my era re-entering the mil after 3+ years flying civil for just that reason.
Not sure either about your last point with 30% of aircrew unable to get a civi job; you'd be hard pushed to not get an airline job somewhere with 10 years plus mil time (on anything!) and an ATPL at the moment.
My unit had heard all the rumours about the bonus, also the subsequent turning off and delay to next year - the change in attitude was marked and a number actively reviewed their position because they felt undervalued. Yes, I know, dry your eyes princess. The point was that there was an expectation of a bonus and therefore the lack of it was a disincentive. The reality was that it's all been done through rumour, we need more comms on this. Shep's article in the popular aviation press on aircrew retention was just appallingly timed, he needs better advice or he needs to listen.
Not sure about you, the amount being discussed would be enough to keep me in for a further 5 years - time will tell if the amount reported is real or a furphy.
I agree entirely that if you leave it too late (and we have) then the quality guys are so far down the road of leaving that you lose them anyway. Remember we do want to lose some - the system relies on it, just not this many!
The other point is that the RAAF has always been like this, it's just this time it coincides with a worldwide airline recruitment drive and we're also bringing an unprecedented number of new airframes on line - that's not good at all.
Spec Aircrew
Spec Aircrew does seem like a good idea, I absolutely refused to go through 18 months of RMC bullsh!t to become a GSO pilot, would only accept 8 week SSO Cse, against the wishes of all I encounted during the selection process.
I know the current system discourages all but the greenest of soldiers undertaking in-service pilot transfers and discourages pilots who can get a job flying outside the ADF from even joining.
Just to clarify, I was never an Army Pilot. I was in another aircrew position and passed pilot selection in 2002. I decided to persue a civillian flying career instead and discharged from the ADF soon after.
I know the current system discourages all but the greenest of soldiers undertaking in-service pilot transfers and discourages pilots who can get a job flying outside the ADF from even joining.
Just to clarify, I was never an Army Pilot. I was in another aircrew position and passed pilot selection in 2002. I decided to persue a civillian flying career instead and discharged from the ADF soon after.
Last edited by Trojan1981; 20th Nov 2007 at 01:44. Reason: Clarification/ I can't spell!
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"Flying for the RAAF is a young man's job. Put simply, if they had wanted you to have a family, they would have issued you one" - this cracked me up...I'll pay that one Capt K. (LOL!)
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I cant fathom why the RAAF hasn't introduced different pay scales for different roles. Surely a F/A-18 pilot should be paid more than a C-130J co-pilot.
And if you dont like it then you should have spent more time prepping in the classroom instead of writing spam in the course lines book.
And if you dont like it then you should have spent more time prepping in the classroom instead of writing spam in the course lines book.
Pay for platform
Not sure about that, I met an f-111 pilot who transfered (maybe even disc-re-enlist) over to 38 Sqn in order to avoid promotion to a desk job. he seemed very happy flying Gravel trucks (as would I be) and was certainly no less skilled.
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I understand there's now a GPCAPT employed at AFHQ looking at the retention bonus package, to be aimed at QFI/FCI with 2 years or less ROSO remaining. No idea yet on cash although rumours abound. I also hear we've changed our minds about increasing pilot pay past PG10 next year - shame.
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Its a shame the RAAF (goverment) isn't more forward thinking in terms of aircrew retention. Surely they have seen this mounting problem coming ever since airlines began recovering post 9/11. But did anything happen?
The thing I have always found strange with the pay scale is that it keeps going up at a good rate while we have ROSO but the day you finish your ROSO your pay rises stop (unless promoted).
I wonder if it was not originally designed for the Nav ROSO.
I wonder if it was not originally designed for the Nav ROSO.