RAAF pilots leaving
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Any news on the latest? Nothing out of Aircrew Sustainability Project other than reducing remuneration for pilots?
Chatting to guy at Williamtown O's mess today - one pilot submitted resignation in last couple of weeks??? Dunno what airline though??
The ASP is a complete joke. If you wish to build hours for an airline then sign onto the Spec Aircrew scheme and leave. If you wish to be a career officer stay away unless you wish to instantly decrease your Super by tens of thousands a year.
ASP =
Chatting to guy at Williamtown O's mess today - one pilot submitted resignation in last couple of weeks??? Dunno what airline though??
The ASP is a complete joke. If you wish to build hours for an airline then sign onto the Spec Aircrew scheme and leave. If you wish to be a career officer stay away unless you wish to instantly decrease your Super by tens of thousands a year.
ASP =
Last edited by ElPerro; 13th Mar 2009 at 18:17.
To give the junior (PLTOFF-SQNLDR) aircrew control over their career (letting them initiate their own postings, or at least negotiate aggressively on their on behalf when taking ground jobs) would be a quantum leap for RAAF. The current bosses are not still in because they want to change the organisation. They are in for their own agendas. Making such a huge change would only create an environment that would be hard work for them and risky for their careers. Therefore the change will never happen. The scope of the ASP is long term - why would a current 2 star take responsibility for driving through a change when the benefits will be felt long after they have left? Getting to senior rank is about staying safe and avoiding too much controversy, not showing leadership and rocking the boat.
The reality is the RAAF will continue to stuff people around. Retention programs will be introduced one after another when economic conditions are good, on the assupmtion that the organisation can recover a little during times of economic crisis (i.e. now). This means the ASP is now likely to be used to push through changes that suit the RAAF, not members.
If you don't want a life of shunting from posting to posting continuing to fight for diminishing opportunities, then I think out is the only way. Don't get me wrong - I reckon the RAAF offers fantastic opportunities, but they only suit very specific people. (must have a partner who has no interest in building a career, must be happy to have kids go to whatever school/care happens to be available, must not have hobbies/interests that can't be packed into a suitcase, must be willing to live in whatever DHA happens to offer, must be willing to rapidly adapt to all sorts of jobs and act like you care etc. etc.)
What concerns me the most is that I perceived that ASP was to investigate all aspects of aircrew. RAAF has some horrible progression and development problems. Historically someone who has been in for ten years is a senior captain with thousands of hours waiting for promotion. Not so now. Take a peek at RAAF news. How many transport/maritime crews are captained by SQNLDRs, instead of FLTLTs as was once the case?
Surely the ASP was intended to look at what happens in the 10 years RAAF has you in ROSO, not just what to do when we all reach 10 years disgruntled, pissed off and wanting out.
My 10 cents. (Perhaps 50 cents, but anyway
)
The reality is the RAAF will continue to stuff people around. Retention programs will be introduced one after another when economic conditions are good, on the assupmtion that the organisation can recover a little during times of economic crisis (i.e. now). This means the ASP is now likely to be used to push through changes that suit the RAAF, not members.
If you don't want a life of shunting from posting to posting continuing to fight for diminishing opportunities, then I think out is the only way. Don't get me wrong - I reckon the RAAF offers fantastic opportunities, but they only suit very specific people. (must have a partner who has no interest in building a career, must be happy to have kids go to whatever school/care happens to be available, must not have hobbies/interests that can't be packed into a suitcase, must be willing to live in whatever DHA happens to offer, must be willing to rapidly adapt to all sorts of jobs and act like you care etc. etc.)
What concerns me the most is that I perceived that ASP was to investigate all aspects of aircrew. RAAF has some horrible progression and development problems. Historically someone who has been in for ten years is a senior captain with thousands of hours waiting for promotion. Not so now. Take a peek at RAAF news. How many transport/maritime crews are captained by SQNLDRs, instead of FLTLTs as was once the case?
Surely the ASP was intended to look at what happens in the 10 years RAAF has you in ROSO, not just what to do when we all reach 10 years disgruntled, pissed off and wanting out.
My 10 cents. (Perhaps 50 cents, but anyway
)
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On a serious note though (pprune, serious?) I do know of 3 guys from my company who have gone back in the last year. However this has nothing to do with the GFC, but more to do with particular company issues and lack of job satisfaction. Although early days...
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It's interesting to note the repeated reference to "postings every 3 years" as a contributing factor to people's dissatisfaction. How bad is it, for aircrew? If you're an ALG driver, your posting option is one base per type, guaranteed to be in a capital city; ALG pilots have two main options, and admittedly one of them for Hornets is about as appealing as a punch in the groin, but the others are pretty good. Yes, there are QFI slots, but as East Sale is pretty much a side-show and usually filled by volunteers, there's only two of those to worry about. Compare this to an LAC CETECH, who has over 20 RAAF locations plus a couple of handfuls of Army, Navy, and Joint options as well, on half your pay and in much sleasier housing, and you might start to take a reality check.
While it's tempting to imagine the grass on the other side of the fence as bright green, involving a nice, stable post to your preferred capital city and never moving from there again, or an exciting five-year jaunt living in a city where the people look funny and the food tastes spicy, that's just not the reality - at least, not if you want the same number of career progression options you enjoyed in the RAAF or you're the luckiest bastard this side of the Hudson River.
So, perhaps the key is "posting flexibility", rather than length: the option to say "yes, I'd love to do two years here and two years there" or "no, I like Tindal, I'd like to stay", with mutually-understood effects on my career progression. In part, this is where ground jobs can step in, as if you want to live in Melbourne (for example), you must resign or stop flying. At least you have that latter choice if you take a ground job - if you worked for some civil employers, you might not.
Finally, there are those people whose life goals and circumstances no longer suit the RAAF. That's fine, but it's not the RAAF's fault, as much as you might like it to be. We all read the recruiting brochures, we all memorised our Top Gun scenes and imagined picking up backpackers in faraway places when we signed up, we knew the deal. Now, we all know a 10-year FLTLT who's been divorced five times, dodged a posting to TDL last year with a threat to resign, and would greet the news of a Squadron deployment to the 'stan with as much enthusiasm as yet another child support demand. Exactly what use to the Australian taxpayer is this person? He or she might be the best pilot since Chuck Yeager, but if they won't post and won't deploy and won't seek promotion, then maybe they're taking up a CE spot that someone else could fill. The USAF will discharge you if you fail to reach certain career milestones by certain deadlines. Just sayin'.
While it's tempting to imagine the grass on the other side of the fence as bright green, involving a nice, stable post to your preferred capital city and never moving from there again, or an exciting five-year jaunt living in a city where the people look funny and the food tastes spicy, that's just not the reality - at least, not if you want the same number of career progression options you enjoyed in the RAAF or you're the luckiest bastard this side of the Hudson River.
So, perhaps the key is "posting flexibility", rather than length: the option to say "yes, I'd love to do two years here and two years there" or "no, I like Tindal, I'd like to stay", with mutually-understood effects on my career progression. In part, this is where ground jobs can step in, as if you want to live in Melbourne (for example), you must resign or stop flying. At least you have that latter choice if you take a ground job - if you worked for some civil employers, you might not.
Finally, there are those people whose life goals and circumstances no longer suit the RAAF. That's fine, but it's not the RAAF's fault, as much as you might like it to be. We all read the recruiting brochures, we all memorised our Top Gun scenes and imagined picking up backpackers in faraway places when we signed up, we knew the deal. Now, we all know a 10-year FLTLT who's been divorced five times, dodged a posting to TDL last year with a threat to resign, and would greet the news of a Squadron deployment to the 'stan with as much enthusiasm as yet another child support demand. Exactly what use to the Australian taxpayer is this person? He or she might be the best pilot since Chuck Yeager, but if they won't post and won't deploy and won't seek promotion, then maybe they're taking up a CE spot that someone else could fill. The USAF will discharge you if you fail to reach certain career milestones by certain deadlines. Just sayin'.
palm3,
You raise some really good points. In particular I totally agree that it would be great if members were able to negotiate with the various posting authorities.
Unfortunately, my impression is that their agenda is to fill the slots that they are prioritising. It does not matter if there is an empty job in Melbourne that a particular pilot could be well used in if there is an empty liason job somewhere in Canberra that sits higher on the priority list. To Canberra you will go. Even if you go to cities that are fairly good to live in (say Richmond(Windsor) to Amberley(Ipswich) then back etc.), each move can have huge and dramatic effects on personal lives. Having to move once every 5 years on average could be devastating.
Your post refers to 'options'. I am not sure that this is the right term. The option is the RAAF's, not the member's. An ALG pilot could typically expect to be at risk of being sent to 5 bases - TVL, AMB, RIC, CBR, ESL - and that's not necesarily to start on a new type.
I'm not sure what the relevance is of comparing pilots' posting situation to Techos. If RAAF pilots were typically considering becoming techos I would understand your point. As it turns out, most seem to be looking at either a swap to the civil airlines, or a career change. By your logic we could compare everyone's package to a Private grunt and say that we should all be grateful to be doing better.
Finally your point that the departure of some is mutually good is totally true. Only problem is that the context of this discussion is that too many people are leaving. It's easy to see why people leave, and (kind of) easy to see why some will stay in. But how does the RAAF retain more of those in the middle? By surrendering some career control to the individual, and paying more. As a number of us have commented, neither of these is likely.
You raise some really good points. In particular I totally agree that it would be great if members were able to negotiate with the various posting authorities.
Unfortunately, my impression is that their agenda is to fill the slots that they are prioritising. It does not matter if there is an empty job in Melbourne that a particular pilot could be well used in if there is an empty liason job somewhere in Canberra that sits higher on the priority list. To Canberra you will go. Even if you go to cities that are fairly good to live in (say Richmond(Windsor) to Amberley(Ipswich) then back etc.), each move can have huge and dramatic effects on personal lives. Having to move once every 5 years on average could be devastating.Your post refers to 'options'. I am not sure that this is the right term. The option is the RAAF's, not the member's. An ALG pilot could typically expect to be at risk of being sent to 5 bases - TVL, AMB, RIC, CBR, ESL - and that's not necesarily to start on a new type.
I'm not sure what the relevance is of comparing pilots' posting situation to Techos. If RAAF pilots were typically considering becoming techos I would understand your point. As it turns out, most seem to be looking at either a swap to the civil airlines, or a career change. By your logic we could compare everyone's package to a Private grunt and say that we should all be grateful to be doing better.
Finally your point that the departure of some is mutually good is totally true. Only problem is that the context of this discussion is that too many people are leaving. It's easy to see why people leave, and (kind of) easy to see why some will stay in. But how does the RAAF retain more of those in the middle? By surrendering some career control to the individual, and paying more. As a number of us have commented, neither of these is likely.
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I dont know if it has "reversed" but it has certainly slowed. I know of reservists that are looking to go back to permanent. Most of the slowing in exodus IMHO is due to the airlines apparently putting a freeze on recruiting. I get the impression that the number of guys nudging ROSO and looking to get out has not reduced (anecdotally).
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Has this exodus affected the other services?
Can anybody add insight as to whether this "pilot drain" has been affecting Navy or Army? I have heard anecdotaly that this is the case, and yes I'm aware they fly different platforms. Just wondering if either services has been dramatically affected and if the "recession" has stopped or slowed pilots leaving those services as well?
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ASP
Some new stuff on the ASP intranet site. It all looks pretty grim. Basically, all pilots will now be in a lower pay grade. A CO will be PG 9, that's the highest you can go.Current members will be protected by a legacy system. You would be literally crazy to transfer to the new one. A member who has been in a long time would lose a bucket of super.In sum, the system will be more sustainable, because they are going to give pilots less money. They can afford to at the moment!
Reduced pay? Hmmm - I wonder what effect THAT will have on the numbers of guys leaving when the outside employment situation goes back through the 'favourable' cycle again....
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To clarify the base pay will reduce on the new scheme. This applies to pilots and ACO's. Pilots will then receive a top up payment that will reflect market forces. Great timing hey! This top up as I understand it will vary so you can't plan on it. When the worm turns it will probably be put up once the horse has bolted. The underlying issue is that there will be no more money for retention pay so they are just shuffling the deck chairs so to speak.
Last edited by BombsGone; 9th May 2009 at 11:41.
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The senior command just don't get it. They spend millions on the FSP, only to create a final proposal that is rubbish and will have no positive retention effect. The reality is, it is all politicking and manoeurving to be seen to be acting on the problem. Reality is, they have done NOTHING (except waste a stack of resources better utilised in the FEGS!!) and have only added momentum to those wishing to leave asap.
Idiots !!
It is sooo frustrating to deal with such utter incompetence.
" How can you soar like an eagle when you work with turkeys"
Idiots !!
It is sooo frustrating to deal with such utter incompetence.
" How can you soar like an eagle when you work with turkeys"
Army Reserve weak link in defence plans | The Australian
'Air Chief Marshal Houston also put commercial pilots on notice that their days of using the RAAF as a flight-training school and a stepping stone to a lucrative flying career with Qantas or Virgin Airlines was about to end. '
how?
'Air Chief Marshal Houston also put commercial pilots on notice that their days of using the RAAF as a flight-training school and a stepping stone to a lucrative flying career with Qantas or Virgin Airlines was about to end. '
how?
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By doing this I guess................
Dunno precisely how that will work though. May backfire big time if potential rescruits percieve a requirement to sign up to an "active reserve pool" as another form of ROSO.
Former military pilots could soon be required to sign up to an active reserve pool.
Methinks he was simply explaining the demise of the old Reserve Staff Group (RSG) where anyone could get reserve days at unit level and use them ad-hoc, and it's replacement with the newer Active Reserve War Establishment (WE) postings, where reserve members receive a five year positing to a dedicated position. As of July 1 there is no more RSG. All reserve flyers will need to have a WE posting within a unit/headquarters to continue to fly.
RM
RM
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So what's the go? Are too many pilots leaving, or has it completely reversed?
Not a good time to be 'negotiating' a pay case.
