One group..........or we're finished!!
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One group..........or we're finished!!
Qantas Shorthaul pilots have been offered a 3 year pay freeze!!
Eastern EBA has been going on for how long??
Jetstar were intimidated into voting up a poor wide-body agreement that no one wants to fly under.
Virgin EBA is also struggling to get a good result.
Qantas Longhaul is about to start and can expect a rough ride.
Going it alone has not worked for any of us and with the recent change to industrial rules against us we only have one hope.........we MUST unite under one common banner.
It can be done with a peak body (AFAP??) and sepearte sub-divisions (QF, Virgin, Jet* etc) it just an administrative process. As a united group we can stop employers playing us off against each other and driving our profession into the gutter.
Without unity we are doomed!!
Eastern EBA has been going on for how long??
Jetstar were intimidated into voting up a poor wide-body agreement that no one wants to fly under.
Virgin EBA is also struggling to get a good result.
Qantas Longhaul is about to start and can expect a rough ride.
Going it alone has not worked for any of us and with the recent change to industrial rules against us we only have one hope.........we MUST unite under one common banner.
It can be done with a peak body (AFAP??) and sepearte sub-divisions (QF, Virgin, Jet* etc) it just an administrative process. As a united group we can stop employers playing us off against each other and driving our profession into the gutter.
Without unity we are doomed!!
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To quote Sir Humphrey Appleby.... "What a novel idea"
and
"did you think of this all by yourself?"
not to mention
"of COURSE I agree with you... 100%, but you must ask yourself - 'is this the RIGHT way to go about it?' "
and it SHALL happen, but .... "in the fullness of time"
"nothing precipitate"
"only after we have exhausted all other avenues, then should we consider this course of action"
"let's set up an inter-departmental comittee to implement this novel idea"
would love to see it happen, personally!
and
"did you think of this all by yourself?"
not to mention
"of COURSE I agree with you... 100%, but you must ask yourself - 'is this the RIGHT way to go about it?' "
and it SHALL happen, but .... "in the fullness of time"
"nothing precipitate"
"only after we have exhausted all other avenues, then should we consider this course of action"
"let's set up an inter-departmental comittee to implement this novel idea"
would love to see it happen, personally!
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Originally Posted by SHRAGS
Qantas Shorthaul pilots have been offered a 3 year pay freeze!!
Eastern EBA has been going on for how long??
Jetstar were intimidated into voting up a poor wide-body agreement that no one wants to fly under.
Virgin EBA is also struggling to get a good result.
Qantas Longhaul is about to start and can expect a rough ride.
Going it alone has not worked for any of us and with the recent change to industrial rules against us we only have one hope.........we MUST unite under one common banner.
It can be done with a peak body (AFAP??) and sepearte sub-divisions (QF, Virgin, Jet* etc) it just an administrative process. As a united group we can stop employers playing us off against each other and driving our profession into the gutter.
Without unity we are doomed!!
Eastern EBA has been going on for how long??
Jetstar were intimidated into voting up a poor wide-body agreement that no one wants to fly under.
Virgin EBA is also struggling to get a good result.
Qantas Longhaul is about to start and can expect a rough ride.
Going it alone has not worked for any of us and with the recent change to industrial rules against us we only have one hope.........we MUST unite under one common banner.
It can be done with a peak body (AFAP??) and sepearte sub-divisions (QF, Virgin, Jet* etc) it just an administrative process. As a united group we can stop employers playing us off against each other and driving our profession into the gutter.
Without unity we are doomed!!
You are looking from the top down. Fix GA and you will never have to worry about the top, it will look after itself.
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I see what you are trying to say! Fix GA and when GA drivers enter airlines they will not take crap....is that it. Well, that may work in the extreme long term (over 10 years or so) but what about the now.
Are you implying that those fortunate enough to hold a position in a large RPT operation lack the ability to fight for a better deal simply because they were not taught how to when they were in GA? RUBBISH!!!!!
It is basic human nature that motives are rarely unselfish and people will think of themselves in majority of situations, which generally is fine...after all if you don't look after #1 who will. However, in collective bargaining, AWA negotiations etc.... the only way to look after yourself is to look after your fellow workers. We are often reminded in this business that we are expendable.. that there is always someone willing to do it for less and we should consider ourselves lucky to have a job. Well that argument may work on a single pilot standing in front of the Flight Operations Manager, but do you think that the same argument will work if it was being presented to 1000 pilots standing together.
Stand together.
Safe Flying
Ratter.
Are you implying that those fortunate enough to hold a position in a large RPT operation lack the ability to fight for a better deal simply because they were not taught how to when they were in GA? RUBBISH!!!!!
It is basic human nature that motives are rarely unselfish and people will think of themselves in majority of situations, which generally is fine...after all if you don't look after #1 who will. However, in collective bargaining, AWA negotiations etc.... the only way to look after yourself is to look after your fellow workers. We are often reminded in this business that we are expendable.. that there is always someone willing to do it for less and we should consider ourselves lucky to have a job. Well that argument may work on a single pilot standing in front of the Flight Operations Manager, but do you think that the same argument will work if it was being presented to 1000 pilots standing together.
Stand together.
Safe Flying
Ratter.
As a group demanding good pay and conditions, you are finished (at the moment).
The economics of aviation are not what they used to be. The money is just not there, in other words. Surely you can see for yourself the trend in airline transport where passengers are no longer carried in luxury and more and more in "low cost" style. Surely you would also be aware of the excessive numbers of pilots available to fill vacant positions.
Aviation has always been, in general, a poor business proposition. I could expand on this point but won't unless specifically asked.
Forget about "fixing GA". That really is a ludicrous suggestion. To fix it, you would have to:
1. Change human nature (Ratter referred to this in his post), and
2. Reduce pilot numbers, worldwide, by about 50%.
It is time to accept the economic realities of aviation. I suggest that those groups you claim have accepted poor EBAs have in fact come to this realisation.
The economics of aviation are not what they used to be. The money is just not there, in other words. Surely you can see for yourself the trend in airline transport where passengers are no longer carried in luxury and more and more in "low cost" style. Surely you would also be aware of the excessive numbers of pilots available to fill vacant positions.
Aviation has always been, in general, a poor business proposition. I could expand on this point but won't unless specifically asked.
Forget about "fixing GA". That really is a ludicrous suggestion. To fix it, you would have to:
1. Change human nature (Ratter referred to this in his post), and
2. Reduce pilot numbers, worldwide, by about 50%.
It is time to accept the economic realities of aviation. I suggest that those groups you claim have accepted poor EBAs have in fact come to this realisation.
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I agree with your sentiments aircraft with the exception of one.
The flying schools throughout Oz are starting to hurt. Would be pilots are now scrutinising the rewards for such a huge investment for this career and many are turning to more lucrative professions. The supply of pilots is slowly running out.
The "economic reality of aviation" is you spend $120,000 + on attaining the qualificatons necessary to get a job that will get you experience to qualify for an "airline" position. When you meet these minimum requirements you are then required to spend a further $40,000 + (aircraft rating, airfares to interviews, medical, psych test, accomodation etc,. etc,.) and you are still not guaranteed a position. I know two pilots that are still trying to pass the psych test with Qantas and many who have missed out altogether.
When you finally gain employment your starting salary can be as low as $48,000.
Unity is one thing but, ultimately, it will be supply and demand that will determine pilots' wages and conditions in the future.
Surely you would also be aware of the excessive numbers of pilots available to fill vacant positions.
The "economic reality of aviation" is you spend $120,000 + on attaining the qualificatons necessary to get a job that will get you experience to qualify for an "airline" position. When you meet these minimum requirements you are then required to spend a further $40,000 + (aircraft rating, airfares to interviews, medical, psych test, accomodation etc,. etc,.) and you are still not guaranteed a position. I know two pilots that are still trying to pass the psych test with Qantas and many who have missed out altogether.
When you finally gain employment your starting salary can be as low as $48,000.
Unity is one thing but, ultimately, it will be supply and demand that will determine pilots' wages and conditions in the future.
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Originally Posted by aircraft
Surely you would also be aware of the excessive numbers of pilots available to fill vacant positions.
Is that you Mr Dixon.????? where are these excessive amounts of pilots????????????????????????????????? The ones with RPT requirements, 500 multi?????? I have never in my carreer seen so many jobs in GA advertised then I have in the last 12-18 months. When Kakadu air have to advertise you know things are getting tight for drivers.
Pilots are not falling from trees anymore.
The flying schools throughout Oz are starting to hurt. Would be pilots are now scrutinising the rewards for such a huge investment for this career and many are turning to more lucrative professions. The supply of pilots is slowly running out.
The facts are employers have had it good for so long in GA because the carrot of a well paid Airline Job kept a steady flow of eager pilots willing to work for less then dole.
The carrot has gone, people that "have made it" are even leaving " well paid airline” jobs to pursue other forms of employment.
Times are changing. The education should start at the bottom, in flying schools, by instructors.
Lesson one should be effects of Conditions.
Times are changing. The education should start at the bottom, in flying schools, by instructors.
Lesson one should be effects of Conditions.
Lesson one should be effects of Conditions.
On the question of pilot numbers: There is one great big indicator that tells you the airlines have no shortage of suitable applicants and that is how Jetstar are going with their pilot recruitment.
Jetstar, being a low cost carrier which can't pay big salaries to aircrew in the first place, is attracting so many applicants that it can demand the applicant pay for all the testing, sim rides, endorsements, etc.
Of course, there are many more companies than Jetstar that are able to make these demands, and you are to expect that while there is the pilot supply, they will do this. There is nothing wrong with these operators; they are a business after all.
In cases of extremely high levels of pilot supply you would expect that the pilot would have to pay the operator for the privilege of flying his aircraft. In fact, this is very close to what happens in many cases around Australia.
When the true pilot shortage arrives, you will know it because the operators will be paying the pilots for the privilege of them coming in for an interview!
The Auswest Airlines example you cited was not necessarily caused by pilot shortage. Instead, I would suggest that the underlying economics could not justify the operation (i.e the mining companies were not prepared to pay Auswest the dough they needed to attract and retain suitable pilots. The high cost of accommodation in Karratha wouldn't have helped the economics).
If it is true that the flying schools are seeing reduced numbers of students then this will improve the supply/demand situation in the future.
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Originally Posted by Charliethewonderdog
Times are changing. The education should start at the bottom, in flying schools, by instructors.
Lesson one should be effects of Conditions.
If in fact a shortage does develop, the glossy brochures will just play on this to lure another flood of hopefuls into the industry.
I know many people who would have seriously re-considered the investment if they had been properly informed.
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Jetstar,................is attracting so many applicants that it can demand the applicant pay for all the testing, sim rides, endorsements, etc.
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Originally Posted by aircraft
The Auswest Airlines example you cited was not necessarily caused by pilot shortage. Instead, I would suggest that the underlying economics could not justify the operation (i.e the mining companies were not prepared to pay Auswest the dough they needed to attract and retain suitable pilots. The high cost of accommodation in Karratha wouldn't have helped the economics).
If it is true that the flying schools are seeing reduced numbers of students then this will improve the supply/demand situation in the future.
If it is true that the flying schools are seeing reduced numbers of students then this will improve the supply/demand situation in the future.
Ok you dont know what happened at Auswest.I'll fill you in from a reliable sole.
Auswest paid a 62.5K package. No rent to be paid, power etc. The wages and conditions were subsidised from the client, Rio Tinto..... the contract Needed pilots with x amount of experience ect..... even with wages well above what a captain on Braz's or metro's get plus free rent they still could not keep pilots, why you might ask? because of a lack of pilots. Pretty simple.
The tide has turned. Warning to employers, you can't make money with out pilots, and you make more with good ones, so learn how to keep them or you will go under.
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I'll answer the jet* problem with another post.
The conditions in jet* have been voted by pilots who will get quick commands, the Jet* condition will not atract the amount of pilots they need if the expansions plans they have a true. Wait an see.
With China expanding more pilots will vote with there feet and move abroad to better pay and conditions.
Supply and demand will see to this. A operator like Virgin may be smart and recognise this early. Personally I doubt it. But it will happen.
The conditions in jet* have been voted by pilots who will get quick commands, the Jet* condition will not atract the amount of pilots they need if the expansions plans they have a true. Wait an see.
With China expanding more pilots will vote with there feet and move abroad to better pay and conditions.
Supply and demand will see to this. A operator like Virgin may be smart and recognise this early. Personally I doubt it. But it will happen.
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My lord!
People on here talking about supply and demand determining pay and employment conditions.
People talking about leaving for another job if they don't like the pay instead of "joining a union"
someone pinch me quick.. surely I'm dreaming!!
People on here talking about supply and demand determining pay and employment conditions.
People talking about leaving for another job if they don't like the pay instead of "joining a union"
someone pinch me quick.. surely I'm dreaming!!
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Aircraft, there is a global shortage of pilots which is clearly evident. PIA planes grounded due lack of crew, Thai developing new cadetship, Emirates battling to find enough pilots, Gulf establishing an Australian base, China Southern recruiting Aus capts, Dragon poaching A320 rated aussies, and more a more LCC offering bonds now for expensive endorsements. You think the global frenzy is due to a pilot surpluss? come off it. And Australia won't be immune to the shortage. Pick up the Australian on friday and read the aviation job adverts. Theres no surpluss of pilots, theres a shortage.
Charliethewonderdog,
You seem to be saying that Auswest Airlines couldn't get pilots because there is a pilot shortage. Have you considered the possibility that their offering wasn't good enough to attract the pilots?
You mentioned some of the terms and conditions. Please give all the T&Cs (as best you can) so that we can make a valued judgement as to whether the job was "worth it". Please also state the experience levels that were required.
If I remember correctly, 500 hours multi was one of the experience requirements. Is it also true that the pilots would have had to spend some time living at the mine sites (e.g Pannawonica, Yandicoogina)? And that they would be in the right hand seat for much of the flying?
It still sounds to me like it was the underlying economics that killed the operation, which after all, is the most common reason for any business venture to fail.
Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?
You seem to be saying that Auswest Airlines couldn't get pilots because there is a pilot shortage. Have you considered the possibility that their offering wasn't good enough to attract the pilots?
You mentioned some of the terms and conditions. Please give all the T&Cs (as best you can) so that we can make a valued judgement as to whether the job was "worth it". Please also state the experience levels that were required.
If I remember correctly, 500 hours multi was one of the experience requirements. Is it also true that the pilots would have had to spend some time living at the mine sites (e.g Pannawonica, Yandicoogina)? And that they would be in the right hand seat for much of the flying?
It still sounds to me like it was the underlying economics that killed the operation, which after all, is the most common reason for any business venture to fail.
Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?
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Originally Posted by aircraft
Charliethewonderdog,
You seem to be saying that Auswest Airlines couldn't get pilots because there is a pilot shortage. Have you considered the possibility that their offering wasn't good enough to attract the pilots?
You mentioned some of the terms and conditions. Please give all the T&Cs (as best you can) so that we can make a valued judgement as to whether the job was "worth it". Please also state the experience levels that were required.
If I remember correctly, 500 hours multi was one of the experience requirements. Is it also true that the pilots would have had to spend some time living at the mine sites (e.g Pannawonica, Yandicoogina)? And that they would be in the right hand seat for much of the flying?
It still sounds to me like it was the underlying economics that killed the operation, which after all, is the most common reason for any business venture to fail.
Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?
You seem to be saying that Auswest Airlines couldn't get pilots because there is a pilot shortage. Have you considered the possibility that their offering wasn't good enough to attract the pilots?
You mentioned some of the terms and conditions. Please give all the T&Cs (as best you can) so that we can make a valued judgement as to whether the job was "worth it". Please also state the experience levels that were required.
If I remember correctly, 500 hours multi was one of the experience requirements. Is it also true that the pilots would have had to spend some time living at the mine sites (e.g Pannawonica, Yandicoogina)? And that they would be in the right hand seat for much of the flying?
It still sounds to me like it was the underlying economics that killed the operation, which after all, is the most common reason for any business venture to fail.
Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?
Yes The pilots were living in Places like Pannawonica, T tree (free food on top of the package) and Karatha. Big deal. And yes there were hour requirements, 500+ Multi being the big one. And this is the requirement that was the most difficult to find, because of a lack of pilots with this experience, pretty simple.
What part of this do you not understand??????? The company could not find pilots??? maybe because there is a pilots shortage?
The pilots who were there left because jobs in turbo prop rpt operations where snapping them up, becuase of the level of experience that they had. If the Rpt operations were not recruiting then there is a good chance Auswest would still be operating.
I dint know how long you have been in the Industry but times a very good for experienced drivers.
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I will believe that there is a pilot shortage when I see my company voluntarily increase my wage, and start to give a 
about retaining senior pilots. Jobs may be slightly easier to obtain than a few years ago, but how does that help the people that already have a job? I really, really, really hope this changes, but like I said, I will believe it when I see it.
So the pilots were STILL the lowest paid group on Rio Tinto's payroll? (speculation) I would hazard a guess to say that the cleaners probably earn more than that.
62k is not a lot of money these days.
about retaining senior pilots. Jobs may be slightly easier to obtain than a few years ago, but how does that help the people that already have a job? I really, really, really hope this changes, but like I said, I will believe it when I see it.
Originally Posted by aircraft
Charliethewonderdog,
Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?
Sure, Rio Tinto was prepared to pay enough to enable a 62.5k package but was that enough? Were they prepared to go higher or was that the limit they considered for an operation using Barons and Navajos?
62k is not a lot of money these days.
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Originally Posted by M.25
I will believe that there is a pilot shortage when I see my company voluntarily increase my wage, and start to give a about retaining senior pilots. Jobs may be slightly easier to obtain than a few years ago, but how does that help the people that already have a job? I really, really, really hope this changes, but like I said, I will believe it when I see it.
about retaining senior pilots. Jobs may be slightly easier to obtain than a few years ago, but how does that help the people that already have a job? I really, really, really hope this changes, but like I said, I will believe it when I see it.
So the pilots were STILL the lowest paid group on Rio Tinto's payroll? (speculation) I would hazard a guess to say that the cleaners probably earn more than that.
62k is not a lot of money these days.
And yes there were hour requirements, 500+ Multi being the big one. And this is the requirement that was the most difficult to find, because of a lack of pilots with this experience, pretty simple.
What part of this do you not understand??????? The company could not find pilots??? maybe because there is a pilots shortage?
What part of this do you not understand??????? The company could not find pilots??? maybe because there is a pilots shortage?
So why were they not coming forward when they knew about the T&Cs? Obviously because they didn't feel the job was worth it. Sure the package may have been 62.5k, but when you take out rent (and other bits) the gross pay would have been around 40k.
So, for pilots with 500+ hours multi, on 40k living sometimes at mine sites and spending half the time in the right hand seat of a Baron - doesn't sound too enticing to me. The Auswest management would have realised that it wasn't very enticing after all and tried to increase the pay - but there would have been a limit on how high they could go - the limit set be Rio Tinto in the contract!
So, simple economics after all - how surprising!