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ASIC's

Old 20th Feb 2006, 13:29
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Got told today my ASIC card had been sent to Qantas, so it should finally be on it's way! Any idea how long it normally takes Qantas to distribute them - looking at moving North shortly for the start of the dry and would like to try and get it before then.
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Old 20th Feb 2006, 14:25
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RV6
INX - I don't appreciate your response to my post. You have missed my point - the photographs were not 6 months old when I submitted the application. I am literate, and I followed the instructions.
While I was somewhat exasperated by the phone call from CASA, I did not abuse the caller - in fact I sympathised and wished him luck in dealing with the next pilot he has to call with similar news. I was far more civil to him than you were to me.
Sorry petal...
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Old 20th Feb 2006, 14:47
  #63 (permalink)  
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INXS - apology accepted
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Old 20th Feb 2006, 14:48
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by THE CONTRACTOR
Firstly, it was the flying instructors in the United States that passed on information to the CIA/FBI about some luney who only wanted to learn how to take off, consequently the CIA/FBI did nothing about it and there you have it 11/11.
11/11..?? ..eerr...Armistice Day..??
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Old 20th Feb 2006, 19:30
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Charlie Foxtrot India:
Another thing, the list of secondary and tertiary documents required to get an ASIC are impossible to produce unless you live here.
Was this always the case? I jumped through hoops to get an AVID and photo license issued with a UK passport and driving license amongst other documents; and when I called CASA to ask about what additional ID I required for an ASIC, I was told that there wasn't an issue because I'd already been through the security checks to get the AVID.

Having said that though, the ASIC is still not with me so maybe its silently gone into the "damn foreigners potential terrorist threat" pile

Paul.
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Old 20th Feb 2006, 21:52
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kalavo
Got told today my ASIC card had been sent to Qantas, so it should finally be on it's way! Any idea how long it normally takes Qantas to distribute them - looking at moving North shortly for the start of the dry and would like to try and get it before then.
Qantas ID is usually fairly quick with their issues.
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 10:57
  #67 (permalink)  

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Folks,

I have just returned from a Regional Industry Consultative Meeting on Airports and Security.

Trust me they are aware of the problems of the past and, I understand the chokepoints have been cleared and they are on track to satisfy most everybody by the 31st Mar.

One has to attend these meetings, held quarterly, to understand the sheer complexity of the matters at hand. Most of the Regional Airports were represented from as far afield as Cocos, Gove, Karratha, Jandakot, Moorrabin etc as were the Police, AFP and I'm not sure whether the guy in the trenchcoat and dark glasses was a flasher who stumbled into the wrong room or from the MIB.

There is an interesting mix of council and private owners all working together with the Governement Agencies to find the most efficient and cost effective ways to meet their security obligations for RPT traffic to their airports.

There is no one size fits all yet and may never be, but they are all talking to each other and I believe there were some real breakthroughs this afternoon between them and the agencies responsible that may simplify matters for the future.

One of the speakers pointed out the problem of "connectivity" between the Govt Departments involved and the problems this brings to what from the outside seems to be a simple "Govt" exercise. Thay all have different Acts and privacy responsibilities under which they operate and their computer software and systems are not simply able to speak with each other by turning a switch.
There are moves to address this for the future in the context of security.

For the record and If I have got it right, there are two separate and distinct issues on foot in so far as Airport Access is concerned and which is IMHO why the process has taken so long.

The issue of an ASIC which signifies that you have "passed" the background checking process as laid down from time to time issued by the responsible Government Agency and makes you eligible for the issuing of an Airport Access card by the airport operator.

The ASIC might come about by an application as say an airport worker, by your company or as a result of your requesting one as part of your CASA pilot licence.

The possesion of an ASIC by either method in and of itself does not automatically allow entry to an Regional ASIC designated airport, or any ASIC designated airport for that matter, or the area designated on the airport as the RPT area without an access card issued by the Airport operator against it or by some other arrangement for escort by a local ASIC and Access Card holder. Some of authorised issuing authorities automaticaly issue an AUS card rather than just for their particular airport but they are not obliged to do so. I assume CASA will be doing likewise ?? when an ASIC is requested from them.??

Many are able to provide a discrete GA area that does not require an ASIC/Access Card, but some do not, by the nature of their security arrangements and the configuration of their airport.

Each airport operator is required to submit and administer a Security Plan that meets the requirements of the Transport Security Act, they can each have different methods of achieving this in the context of their particular airport situation which is why they may have different forms of access control.

Why don't or why isn't there a form of ASIC that is valid across all airports in Australia as an Access Card administered from a central point??

I understand there are still a considerable numbers of wrinkles to unwrinkle to work this out, but I can say that there is fairly unanimous support amongst the Regional, Secondary and privately/council owned airport owners and an honest desire on the part of the Governement Agencies to drive towards this as a goal.

For the moment it is steady as she goes, getting the immediate problems solved and clearing the decks, so that they can get back to whatever normal transmission is going to be.

I believe there will be some announcements shortly about the manner in the future willl be handled.
Trust me they are going about this in a methodical, rational and highly professional and consultative manner making sure that they have it as simple and as right as it is possible to be first up.

Its not an answer to todays problem, that is resolving itself, nor can it repair the past, but rest assured that the stakeholders, (I hate that word) both industry and Government are working hard together with the best of goodwill and professionalism to produce the best system possible for Australia.

It has been a long hard and tortuous road, there has been some serious financial pain for many, but I have strong feeling that we are at last just about there.

The Govt Agencies are and have been made aware of the significant financial costs the process has brought to the industry, and despite what some may think they are alive to it, but they can only move as fast as the slowest in the chain. The learning curve has been steep and I expect it to remain so for a little while in these uncharted waters. The lessons for the future are being learnt.

Anyway that's my take and I'm sure if there any "deliberate mistakes" in the above someone is bound to point them out.

Oh surprise surprise ran into more than a few PPRuNers too.
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 11:06
  #68 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 185skywagon
Qantas ID is usually fairly quick with their issues.
Well, when I started this thread a few weeks back I had no idea it would generate the kind of discussion it has. But then again, I had no idea of what was going on. I am based in the UK and applied for my ASIC at the same time as I applied for my CoV to allow me to fly in Oz during an upcoming vacation.

I too have been told today the security checks have come back and will be sent off to QANTAS for ASIC issue. Does anyone know just how long the QANTAS phase will take?

The Wombat
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 12:21
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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gaunty. this is not a rant against you per se
The possesion of an ASIC by either method in and of itself does not automatically allow entry to an Regional ASIC designated airport, or any ASIC designated airport for that matter, or the area designated on the airport as the RPT area without an access card issued by the Airport operator against it or by some other arrangement for escort by a local ASIC and Access Card holder.
and
Why don't or why isn't there a form of ASIC that is valid across all airports in Australia as an Access Card administered from a central point??
So, even with a 'must have' ASIC there was another sleeper requirement to have an access card for each regional airport ?
Oh, diety no... pleeeeeeeeease tell me that that isn't the case.

I understand there are still a considerable numbers of wrinkles to unwrinkle to work this out, but I can say that there is fairly unanimous support amongst the Regional, Secondary and privately/council owned airport owners and an honest desire on the part of the Governement Agencies to drive towards this as a goal.
Whilst I can sympathise with, and even see, some of the difficulties that the airports face, the fact still remains that the politicians made the directives and set the deadlines.
Perhaps if the @#(*%& pollies had consulted with the affected bodies before the knee-jerk reaction to Sep11 then we wouldn't now be going through all this crap and delay and uncertainty and very belated consultations now.
If the spook agencies honestly believed that there was a real aviation-related terrorism threat then they would've kicked the pollies in the arse who would then have found some dusty statutes on the books to legally deal with the problem.
Call me niaive, but i believe that much of this 'security' crud is excessive.

It has been a long hard and tortuous road, there has been some serious financial pain for many, but I have strong feeling that we are at last just about there.
Nah... IMHO this is simply something to make the #*I%R&! pollies look 'decisive' and 'macho', and they'll be looking to find more hoops to make us all jump through when their ratings decline.

Hmmm. I still wonder... Are the pollies and their retinue security and background checked ??. After all, their decisions will affect millions of lives.
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 15:34
  #70 (permalink)  

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Perhaps I should make myself a bit clearer.

If you have an "AUS" ASIC, or an Avid and ASIC there should be no problem.

It's not just pilots who need em and as far as I can tell there are more groundies ATCers, engineers and so on than pilots, altogether it is a massive task, just on the numbers.

There are lots of grey areas stilll being uncovered, but they will be, and appropriate fixes applied.

Perhaps if the @#(*%& pollies had consulted with the affected bodies before the knee-jerk reaction to Sep11 then we wouldn't now be going through all this crap and delay and uncertainty and very belated consultations now.
that would be a very neat answer, but I suspect wouldn't have changed the outcome one little bit.

They probably did, but NOBODY had any idea it would open a Pandoras box.

I know from the initial starting point everyone was confident that it would be a relatively straightforward exercise, but it wasn't until they got right into the intial planning and followed with the consultation phase that the magnitude of the issue was revealed to everybody. Back to the drawing board.

Wheeler was able to provide the basic framework and reveal more issues from their experience.

I recall having made arrangements, which were ultimately pushed way back, for them to come and brief our group on the process that we believed was all but complete, but that iteration was subjected to further modification on issues revealed by us and others and that was last year.

Even today several important but fairly simply fixed issues not previously considered, just bubbled to the surface as part of the discussion.

Just give em a break, the Act is not negotiable, the regs and the means of implementing it are still being defined and refined.

The Pollies set policy, the soldiers have got to work out how to do it.

The only way you'll change it is to change the Govrnment on it, but I think the opposition is of the same mind and the public aren't listening. And if they do, what are you going to tell them. They already know about politicians and they also know that they, live with a fear they never used to and it's not just terrorism.
What do you do with gangs that swagger round the streets of our cities armed with Samurai swords and all manner of bullsh!t martial art kit. The police wont go near them and I dont blame them, they cant just shoot them, and everybody else keeps out of the way. My 22 year old son 6'4" and built, whose mates are all the same size, simply walk away, we used to take em around the back and give em a hiding, the kids of today know that you dont take a pair of fists to a knife or gunfight.

At the end of the day we live in a far different world than yesterday, we just have to get used to and make the best of it.

I am not privy to the current threat level setting, but you can be certain it wont always be where it is.
I feel much happier getting the groundwork done now, so that we are not, as we often are, on the back foot.
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 15:36
  #71 (permalink)  
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Security against WHAT???
There is No security risk.
What a load of complete and utter rubbish. It is not required, not wanted by nearly everybody in the industry, almost unpolicable and certainly not effective.
The only reason there will be no hijacks or whatever the percieved risk is, is simply because the risk doesn't exist in the first place.
Taxpayers should be outraged at the waste of public money on this rubbish.
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 16:23
  #72 (permalink)  
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Thanks for that Gaunty and I appreciate your work and input.

But surely all these various agencies knew all this would happen, and if not why not? Why, when they opened Pandora's box, did they not put a delay on all of this eg let CFIs issue student licences until they could actually find a streamlined way to process them? Let the regional offices continue to issue licences until they actually had the resources in Canberra to do it?

Instead they forged ahead and let the flying training and aviation tourism industries grind to a halt. Consultation? It was obvious to industry that this would be a complete mess but I don't recall being consulted, or having a single letter to a pollie ackowledged let alone answered.

What I would like to know, is that now they seem to have admitted "er... there seems to be a bit of a problem here...." are they going to compensate those GA businesses that have lost out? Yeah right. For some it may be too late to ever hope to recoup the losses from not being able to do full time training of locals or overseas students and all the cancelled flying holidays etc, and rebuild confidence around the world that Australia is a good place to fly, rather than a bureaucratic joke where you are a terrorist until proven innocent. All this has meant years of marketing down the drain.

I agree with WIZ, that Bloggs doing his first solo, or Johnny Tourist going up to Shark Bay to look at some dolphins, or geez, even Wiz returning to an RPT aerodrome after a hard day mustering moo moos is not such a threat to national security that it has to cost millions of dollars to an industry that can ill afford it.
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 16:40
  #73 (permalink)  
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And not to mention the millions of public dollars being spent on security gates and fences on airstrips in the middle of nowhere.
they Cant even keep the friggen roo's out of my home strip and they think a $170,000 gate and small section of fence is going to keep out a determined but non existant security threat????????? Dream on!!!!!
They have been trying to keep the roo's out of my home strip for years and guess what I had to dodge on landing the other night???? wasn't one of Ossama's mates, but could have been...................If they had any interest in coming to this part of the world. But I have my doubts.
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 20:22
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for your most informative posts Gaunty. I'm still waiting for my patiently waiting for my ASIC. What concerns me the most is the prospect of doing some air touring and having to deal with a multitude of different security arrangements.

I've already found the hard way about the difficulties of accessing a "secure" airport on a Sunday morning and I won't be going back to Mildura any time soon for this reason. Maybe I should take some wire cutters with me?

By the way, was a certain association name beginning with "a' in attendance?
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Old 21st Feb 2006, 22:44
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Charlie Foxtrot India
Instead they forged ahead and let the flying training and aviation tourism industries grind to a halt.
The demise of a certain self fly tour company has meant that 20 trips X 5-7 aircraft through our area every year, has reduced to nil trips. Less fuel sales, less motel bookings etc etc etc. I have spoken to the owner of that company. He closed it down because there was no way he could comply with security checks for foreign pilots, within any time constraints or with any certainty.
He had to bring in the ombudsman to even get the Dept to listen to his problems with all of this. There is no talk of compensation.
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Old 22nd Feb 2006, 01:10
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Paul Phelan

It's simple maths really. If one government agency's involved, the possibility of an up-stuff is 100%. With two, it's 400%, with three - you guessed it - 900%.

So with AFP, ASIO, CASA and DOTRS it comes to 1600%. The math doesn't work however, when the involvement results from a political directive. This time we're blaming the wrong people. And given their level of interest, I wouldn't be expecting much more from our alternative govenment either. Gotta go, I can feel an editorial coming on.
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Old 22nd Feb 2006, 01:17
  #77 (permalink)  

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Gotta agree there Paul....BTW I hope you were not too put out by my letter to the editor of Australian Flying ref the PN68C article PM me

Chuckles.
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Old 22nd Feb 2006, 01:48
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Insane. Just insane.

But the public don't understand and therefore don't care.

The pollies are 'seen to be' doing something. Even if it is totally ineffective.

I would hazard a bet that 99.9% of daily 'checking' of an ASIC is a visual challenge and response, usually by a non security person - e.g. another AISC holder working as crew, ground support, engineering etc. So tell me - how easy would it be to fake up a red plastic card? The little hologram is just as easily faked - if you were to even bother. Who is really going to take a close look at it? Especially at woop woop? But thats the whole reality isn't it - nobody is going to challenge it because.... well what is the real threat?

Some enterprising crim could make a nice earner out of making fake ASICS - if they arent already (and you dont already count the higher power behind all this as criminal in their conduct)
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Old 22nd Feb 2006, 02:26
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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I'm Really Confused!

I'm only a private pilot so I don't need an ASIC for any commercial (RPT) requirement and the number of times I fly privately probably doesn't justify me buying an ASIC . However, I'm totally confused as to whether I need an ASIC at all or whether my AVID will suffice at some airports.

From what I understand from DOTARS/CASA material, if I fly to:

a) a non-RPT airport - no ASIC required

b) an airport with a marked out RPT secure area (blue line): no ASIC required unless you need to go into the secure area

c) an RPT airport with no marked out secure area: ASIC required, as the whole airport technically becomes a total "secure area".

Is my interpretation above correct?

Also from a layman's point of view what is the operational difference and impact between a "secure area of an airport' and a "security controlled airport"? I don't believe this is clearly understood by many pilots.

Whilst I recognise and accept the benefits of increased airport security, I am concerned that airports like Portland for example, are able to classify their whole airport as a "secure area" (ASIC required) instead of just marking out the RPT sensitive area. By doing this, they are making the whole airport unavailable to those GA pilots that only have (or require) AVIDs. Whilst this is not an issue in the Eastern States where there are a number of airport alternatives, it does create problems for those pilots flying into remote areas where airport choices are limited and they require access to sparsely deployed refuelling stops at airports which are declared "ASIC Only Airports".

I think regional airports should be encouraged by DOTARS to mark out their RPT secure areas instead of restricting access to AVID holders by taking the easy way out and declaring the whole airport a "secure area".
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Old 22nd Feb 2006, 04:43
  #80 (permalink)  

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Charlie Foxtrot India

Thanks, you know I cant help myself.

I think we need to understand the original point made by me and supported by Paul Phelan PS Mathematics 101 when he says.

The math doesn't work however, when the involvement results from a political directive. This time we're blaming the wrong people. And given their level of interest, I wouldn't be expecting much more from our alternative govenment either. Gotta go, I can feel an editorial coming on.
Even were they to have "known this would happen" when they opened Pandoras Box, and I am still arguing that it did not become "known" until a fair way through the process, (I said earlier there are still a large number of unforeseen wrinkles bubbling to the surface) in the absence of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the reply from Government would have been the same.

"We have made a committment to the travelling and set a date, it is not negotiable."

To their credit they listened to their Agencies and industry before Christmas and recognised that though the date for the receiving of applications is set in stone, there was overwhelming evidence and they granted an extension to the time for which they should be displayed in order to give the Agencies the time to finalise the processing.

The airport owners face significant financial penalties and loss, should their processes and responsibilities be later found wanting.
They must approach the management of their airports security with the utmost diligence, their fiduciary and legal responsibilities demand it.

So apart from the connectivity issue between Govt Agencies, their security obligations and concerns MUST also be satisfied, they are the places after all where you are required to wear you ASIC, they are working hard on to minimise the impact on themselves and therefore you.
They are entitled to do this in a orderly fashion and that too takes time.

Not surprisingly we have seen here, angry posts by PPRuNers who had not applied by the advertised date. There is no excuse, except for exceptional circumstances.

I do recognise your specific plight in regard to your flying holiday and overseas pilot training market and the damage and issue were mentioned specifically yesterday by both myself and the airport operator and taken on board. They were already very much aware, but powerless in the face of the Govt directive.

Compensation? that question when raised specifically in relation to you and the other operator was met honestly with the response that it was way above their pay grade and it is. Out of the 190 something airports affected there are only a handful that have suffered such. It's little solace but its been about the big picture.
BTW you can stop calling me Shirley

Paul Phelan again;
This time we're blaming the wrong people.

the wizard of auz

What was the name of the station near you out the back of nowehere, that that Japanese cult (was it the Moonies or Mooners. ) used to make their Sarin gas and did they fly in and out of Oz with it. sorry

Sunfish no, it was an Airports and Regional Industry meeting. The had their own meeting with the Minister, where they were also told it was not negotiable and they apparently as have many others suggested some ways that it could be fixed.

There is already a new process with new staff using the lessons of the past including connectivity, well in train for the future which I understand will be announced at an appropriate time, it will not address the current issue which is receiving competent high level attention, first things first.

QSK? correct.

There are however many more people beyond pilots who need an ASIC and the access card usually related to there employment at that particular airport.

Your point has in fact been very widely canvassed amongst the aiport owners.
It is not available to DOTARS to "tell" the individual airport owners what they should/can and shouldn't/cannot do on their own airports, beyond requiring a Transport Security Plan that they can approve or not approve according to the regulations governing them.
The owners will respond and configure their airport according to what they individually believe is the best and most cost efficient means available to them, it's intended use and within the limits of the funding provided by Government and their own often limited resources.

Whether the manner in which they choose to configure their airport encourages or discourages its use beyond RPT or whatever is a local ownership decision and must be fought at that level.

So hands up all those who supported the sale of Commonwealth/FAC airports.
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