ASIC's
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Gaunty,
I understand that CASA, DOTARs, ASIO, AFP, et al, are not the root cause of the delay - they have been given a hospital pass at the eleventh hour.
Nevertheless, in my experience, silence is often regarded as consent. I have made my views known to the Minister, although he has not seen fit to do the same to me, as yet. People are getting stuffed around, at the same time as being slugged with new costs and charges, and they have a right to feel angry about it.
The fact remains - the departments involved were not given the proper resources to handle the job, even though elemental maths should have given an indication of the magnitude of the task.
In the meantime the silence from the Minister and those involved has been deafening. I believe you when you say it has been taken very seriously and that wheels are in motion to do something about it, but apart from your word, what evidence do I have? And if it hadn't been for people writing, phoning, emailing, would the issue be taken so seriously?
In the meantime I shall wait - what choice do I have?
I understand that CASA, DOTARs, ASIO, AFP, et al, are not the root cause of the delay - they have been given a hospital pass at the eleventh hour.
Nevertheless, in my experience, silence is often regarded as consent. I have made my views known to the Minister, although he has not seen fit to do the same to me, as yet. People are getting stuffed around, at the same time as being slugged with new costs and charges, and they have a right to feel angry about it.
The fact remains - the departments involved were not given the proper resources to handle the job, even though elemental maths should have given an indication of the magnitude of the task.
In the meantime the silence from the Minister and those involved has been deafening. I believe you when you say it has been taken very seriously and that wheels are in motion to do something about it, but apart from your word, what evidence do I have? And if it hadn't been for people writing, phoning, emailing, would the issue be taken so seriously?
In the meantime I shall wait - what choice do I have?
Don Quixote Impersonator
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TLAW
Point taken;
true but only after it was made very clear to the Minister that there was never ever and no possibility that there could be compliance within a deadline set a year or so before without any real idea then of the complexities involved.
I suspect you and many thousands of others, hence no reply, buit it would certainly have reinforced what his agencies have been telling him.
ASICS and the proposed new charges are actually two separate issues, but if you are already cross about one it would be easy to stay cross about the other.
I did say I was sticking my neck out, like you I hope the evidence or some form of solution, is forthcoming in time.
I promise you if it is not there will be merry hell to pay and it wont be just me, there will be massive non compliance/civil disobedience and if they get hard nosed about it they will be in the courts for the next century or so.
yes and yes.
Yes the people writing and phoning confirmed something they already knew and yes it was always taken seriously.
Problem is coordinating the system, process and operators CASA, DOTARs, ASIO, AFP, and a hundred or so Airport owners and operators across Australia et al, ALL having different priorities, responsibilities and agenda.
Is it any wonder the people ultimately responsible might be a little battle fatigued.
In 2002 when Minister Anderson made the first announcement about the security requirement Bruce Gemmel then CASA CEO rang me that morning in my capacity as an AOPA VP to give us a heads up and to reassure me that whilst this was NOT a CASA intitiative, they would be working closely with us to mitigate any problems and that they and the appropriate agencies did not yet have any details of the implementation nor had the manner of its application yet been established.
If you want an overview of the work required and the background have a wander around in here.
It might give you an appreciation of the scope.
http://www.dotars.gov.au/transsec/aviation/index.aspx
Point taken;
I understand that CASA, DOTARs, ASIO, AFP, et al, are not the root cause of the delay - they have been given a hospital pass at the eleventh hour.
I have made my views known to the Minister, although he has not seen fit to do the same to me, as yet.
People are getting stuffed around, at the same time as being slugged with new costs and charges, and they have a right to feel angry about it.
I believe you when you say it has been taken very seriously and that wheels are in motion to do something about it, but apart from your word, what evidence do I have?
I promise you if it is not there will be merry hell to pay and it wont be just me, there will be massive non compliance/civil disobedience and if they get hard nosed about it they will be in the courts for the next century or so.
And if it hadn't been for people writing, phoning, emailing, would the issue be taken so seriously
Yes the people writing and phoning confirmed something they already knew and yes it was always taken seriously.
Problem is coordinating the system, process and operators CASA, DOTARs, ASIO, AFP, and a hundred or so Airport owners and operators across Australia et al, ALL having different priorities, responsibilities and agenda.
Is it any wonder the people ultimately responsible might be a little battle fatigued.
In 2002 when Minister Anderson made the first announcement about the security requirement Bruce Gemmel then CASA CEO rang me that morning in my capacity as an AOPA VP to give us a heads up and to reassure me that whilst this was NOT a CASA intitiative, they would be working closely with us to mitigate any problems and that they and the appropriate agencies did not yet have any details of the implementation nor had the manner of its application yet been established.
If you want an overview of the work required and the background have a wander around in here.
It might give you an appreciation of the scope.
http://www.dotars.gov.au/transsec/aviation/index.aspx
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RV6
Originally Posted by RV6
Got a call from CASA this morning telling me thay can't process my ASIC application because "the system shows the photographs are more than 6 months old" - please get new photos certified and fill in page 3 again and send it to CB.
It's so long since I applied for the ASIC my memory is hazy, but I don't think I sent them any pix because I already had a recently issued AVID so the form said that was all they needed. Any way - if they hadn't taken so long to get round to processing my application, the pix wouldn't be 6 months old!
I'm tempted to tell them "no thanks - I'd like my money back" - I note my credit card was debited the fee last month. Might be waiting even longer for that,though.
What a complete, incompetent farce!
It's so long since I applied for the ASIC my memory is hazy, but I don't think I sent them any pix because I already had a recently issued AVID so the form said that was all they needed. Any way - if they hadn't taken so long to get round to processing my application, the pix wouldn't be 6 months old!
I'm tempted to tell them "no thanks - I'd like my money back" - I note my credit card was debited the fee last month. Might be waiting even longer for that,though.
What a complete, incompetent farce!
Your aplication is one of 11,000+ others and therefore try giving them a bit of slack.
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Gaunty,
Thanks for your well thought out reply - I can see we are of one mind here. I have also read in Australian Aviation that we are not alone in thinking all this.
inxs
Thanks for your insightful comment
Thanks for your well thought out reply - I can see we are of one mind here. I have also read in Australian Aviation that we are not alone in thinking all this.
inxs
Once all you morons learn to spell
Your aplication is one
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inxs,
my AVID paperwork was error free, yet it took seven months to get a result.
There was a glitch at every stage.
1/ person that received application unaware of website instructions
2/ next person failed to read past page one of application
3/ while application languished in line, "lifed" paper work went "time-ex".
4/ resubmitted, confirmed received, subsequently lost
Do you want me to continue?
OK, when it finally turned up, it was incorrect and had to be re-issued.
I gave them slack the whole way through.
my AVID paperwork was error free, yet it took seven months to get a result.
There was a glitch at every stage.
1/ person that received application unaware of website instructions
2/ next person failed to read past page one of application
3/ while application languished in line, "lifed" paper work went "time-ex".
4/ resubmitted, confirmed received, subsequently lost
Do you want me to continue?
OK, when it finally turned up, it was incorrect and had to be re-issued.
I gave them slack the whole way through.
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[QUOTE=dude65]
Well, there you go guys, I'm a moron and an idiot too (which is no great surprise to me..) but it was the powers to be that thought it was a good idea to take it off DoTARS and drop it into the lap of CASA while they were struggling with Centralisation of flight crew licensing in Canberra. Consequently, their workloads just spiralled out of control at a time when BB started to retrench CASA staff. Therefore, with no extra staff except maybe for a handful of temps that probably come & go through the front door, they needed this like a "hole in the head". My point being, we shouldn't abuse the staff there, they are working their guts out in trying to keep up the pace.
All this doesn't excuse the `suits' up top from making these outrageous and unachievable decisions. Mind you, you can still fly this year if you have an AVID, an ASIC is not compulsory.
Don't be surprised to see another extension from the 31 March....
Pinky is correct in that this is not CASA's doing.
Some mental giant decided that if they issued a photo licence,then an AVID card and then an ASIC card ,this would be the most effficient way to combat terrorism in this country. They then go and lob all this on CASA and tell them to get it sorted by Dec. 2005.
Some mental giant decided that if they issued a photo licence,then an AVID card and then an ASIC card ,this would be the most effficient way to combat terrorism in this country. They then go and lob all this on CASA and tell them to get it sorted by Dec. 2005.
All this doesn't excuse the `suits' up top from making these outrageous and unachievable decisions. Mind you, you can still fly this year if you have an AVID, an ASIC is not compulsory.
Don't be surprised to see another extension from the 31 March....
I don't want to be the best pilot in the world - Just the oldest
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Don't be surprised to see another extension from the 31 March....
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It's CASA's, DOTARS, AFP and most of all the Government's fault that nobody has been issued with an ASIC yet ! And no don't give them any "slack", see thats the entire problem they are all very slack at their jobs, that's why this mess was created in the first place.
Browsing these and other forums I'm yet to see a post by somebody who actually has one, and that includes people who have applied over 12 months ago !!
I don't give a stuff but cause in the meantime I'm still flying.
If all these Government beaurocracies cant get their act together then it's entirely their problem.
I've been waiting over 2 months for my licence AVID/ASIC and I'm not about to throw my hands in the air and stop flying cause they can't produce me a licence and ID document that could be produced better by a five year old with some faber castel coloured pencils.
Do you think CASA will pay for a Bi-ennial or check flight because your currency has run out while you wait for them to pull their finger out ? I don't think so, so go fly, stuff em !
I'm also not going to waste my time writing to goverment ministers and departments, cause they don't listen. I think my energy is much better spent by going for a fly and proving that what they are trying to implement is not going to stop what they are trying to stop.
Flyboy11
Browsing these and other forums I'm yet to see a post by somebody who actually has one, and that includes people who have applied over 12 months ago !!
I don't give a stuff but cause in the meantime I'm still flying.
If all these Government beaurocracies cant get their act together then it's entirely their problem.
I've been waiting over 2 months for my licence AVID/ASIC and I'm not about to throw my hands in the air and stop flying cause they can't produce me a licence and ID document that could be produced better by a five year old with some faber castel coloured pencils.
Do you think CASA will pay for a Bi-ennial or check flight because your currency has run out while you wait for them to pull their finger out ? I don't think so, so go fly, stuff em !
I'm also not going to waste my time writing to goverment ministers and departments, cause they don't listen. I think my energy is much better spent by going for a fly and proving that what they are trying to implement is not going to stop what they are trying to stop.
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I don't know where you sit in the food chain INXS. I'm certainly not blaming CASA for this monumental balls up. Someone made the decision to approach this issue (pilot ID's) by over regulating,over governing and then over legislating.
Personally I've no gripe with CASA. I don't have a shoot the messenger mentality like some. I sent an e-mail to them over the weekend and had a response by 10.00 Monday morning. They're doing their best with what little resources the Government has allocated them.
Personally I've no gripe with CASA. I don't have a shoot the messenger mentality like some. I sent an e-mail to them over the weekend and had a response by 10.00 Monday morning. They're doing their best with what little resources the Government has allocated them.
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It's all a bit bolics really. Firstly, it was the flying instructors in the United States that passed on information to the CIA/FBI about some luney who only wanted to learn how to take off, consequently the CIA/FBI did nothing about it and there you have it 11/11. Secondly, the Visacard/ passport/ and licence fraud is absolutely ripe, what makes people think that all this nonsense about background checks will make it harder for someone to perform terrorist activety. Yeah, and before anyone says it, it is all about public perception. "We have all this in place, and nope won't happen here". Bolics, take a look at a major airports, anyone could sneek through with halfwit security guards who couldn't give a shut standing at the gate. And to make cabin and flight crew front up through security and baggage handlers come and go as they please is absolutley absurd.
So no one here I believe is really blaming the CASA staff, who indeed are doing there best to achieve unrealistic deadlines. But more so we are blaming the Government of the day for a kneejerk reaction without really looking at the finer and more important security issues rather than setting a public perception of all is fine.
So no one here I believe is really blaming the CASA staff, who indeed are doing there best to achieve unrealistic deadlines. But more so we are blaming the Government of the day for a kneejerk reaction without really looking at the finer and more important security issues rather than setting a public perception of all is fine.
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But more so we are blaming the Government of the day for a kneejerk reaction without really looking at the finer and more important security issues rather than setting a public perception of all is fine.
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Originally Posted by inxs
Mind you, you can still fly this year if you have an AVID, an ASIC is not compulsory.
Don't be surprised to see another extension from the 31 March....
Don't be surprised to see another extension from the 31 March....
As I stated above, the new PPL will not be issued until the ASIC is issued. Doesn't matter is CASA have already issued the AVID or ASIC-exemption letter, the effect is: once the student switches from being GFPT to PPL, they are no longer allowed to fly into Security Controlled Airports.
As a pilot, it is my responsibility to ensure that I fly according to the regs. The regs stipulate that I cannot enter a Security Controlled Airport without an ASIC - but the Minister has decreed that CASA can issue a letter exempting the pilot from carrying an ASIC if s/he applied for their ASIC prior to 31/12/2005. The student uses the letter as authorisation during their GFPT Nav Exercises - and everything is legal. But, CASA decree that this letter is authorisation enough to issue the PPL.
Yes, having spoken with CASA - it is they who have made this decision. Not the "suits upstairs", not the "powers that be", certainly not the "powers to be", not the Government, not the Minister.
I appreciate CASA are in a hard spot - having had the whole process descend upon them. I realise that the Minister - in granting the extension to 31 March - probably didn't realise the extra workload he was putting upon the AFP (they're too busy sorting througth Visa applications for the Commonwealth Games to give much time to pilots) - so why, oh why, would they increase their own workload to the extent that they withhold PPLs (and doubtless other licenses, endorsements etc) until the ASIC is issued when they've already issued the same authority and it is encumbent upon the pilot to ensure they are abiding by the regs?
BD
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A letter from DOTARS arrived this morning and the third paragraph stated;
OK, now let us wait and see.
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
I am happy to report that the vast majority of pilots have now lodged their applications, with an ASIC issuing body, and can look forward to recieving their ASIC before the exemption expires on 31 March 2006
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
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Imagine if they took the resources required to send out all these propaganda letters and instead used that money to employ another 5, or even 10 staff, (even casuals) to actually process the applications.
Just an idea.
Whoops, I forgot -this is the public service. Ideas not appreciated
Just an idea.
Whoops, I forgot -this is the public service. Ideas not appreciated
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Pinky, I managed to frighten people on the street when I burst out laughing after I read the last bit of that paragraph from Dotars. 
In that letter, Dotars again says that we can't go into 'secure' areas without an ASIC, but I can't find any mailouts from Dotars which actually define what a 'secure' area actually is.
Those little details appear to have been left for us to discover.
After a lot of rummaging on the Dotars web site, one can find some diagrams which define the 'secure' and 'security restricted' areas.
The Dotars website also has the following disclaimer http://www.dotars.gov.au/disclaimer.aspx
So., can I tell the swat team to go to 
hell when they surround me after I alight at Fitzroy Crossing without an ASIC ?
After all, I haven't got a paper copy from Dotars defining what the 'secure' and 'restricted' areas are, and the above disclaimer basically says that I shouldn't trust the web-site info.
In that letter, Dotars again says that we can't go into 'secure' areas without an ASIC, but I can't find any mailouts from Dotars which actually define what a 'secure' area actually is.
Those little details appear to have been left for us to discover.
After a lot of rummaging on the Dotars web site, one can find some diagrams which define the 'secure' and 'security restricted' areas.
The Dotars website also has the following disclaimer http://www.dotars.gov.au/disclaimer.aspx
By accessing information at or through this site, each user waives and releases DOTARS to the full extent permitted by law from any and all claims relating to the usage of and/or reliance on the material made available through the web site. In no event shall DOTARS be liable for any injury, loss or damage resulting from use of or reliance upon the material.
hell when they surround me after I alight at Fitzroy Crossing without an ASIC ?After all, I haven't got a paper copy from Dotars defining what the 'secure' and 'restricted' areas are, and the above disclaimer basically says that I shouldn't trust the web-site info.
That’s almost as good as saying "This ASIC proves you are not a terrorist. If however it turns out you are a terrorist we can't be blamed for it. Thank you for your time "
"
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INX - I don't appreciate your response to my post. You have missed my point - the photographs were not 6 months old when I submitted the application. I am literate, and I followed the instructions.
While I was somewhat exasperated by the phone call from CASA, I did not abuse the caller - in fact I sympathised and wished him luck in dealing with the next pilot he has to call with similar news. I was far more civil to him than you were to me.
While I was somewhat exasperated by the phone call from CASA, I did not abuse the caller - in fact I sympathised and wished him luck in dealing with the next pilot he has to call with similar news. I was far more civil to him than you were to me.
Moderator
Another thing, the list of secondary and tertiary documents required to get an ASIC are impossible to produce unless you live here.
The only way we have found around it for our overseas students and visitors is to apply for an Australian drivers licence when they arrive - so if that state department will let them have one on the spot, which then becomes an acceptable document for the ASIC application, why can't DOTARS just accept an overseas drivers licence in the first place????
One chap coming on a flying holdiay was charged $90 to have his docs verified at the Aus embassy in Singapore. Now CASA have sent him an email saying that's not good enough. Another cancelled holiday.
The only way we have found around it for our overseas students and visitors is to apply for an Australian drivers licence when they arrive - so if that state department will let them have one on the spot, which then becomes an acceptable document for the ASIC application, why can't DOTARS just accept an overseas drivers licence in the first place????
One chap coming on a flying holdiay was charged $90 to have his docs verified at the Aus embassy in Singapore. Now CASA have sent him an email saying that's not good enough. Another cancelled holiday.