ALL NAC pilots threatened with sack!
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Woomera,
Emailed as requested.
Thankyou, that was my point, also.
Emailed as requested.
P.S. And if you think registration of an ABN negates the provisions of a Federal Award for full time, full time casual, casual or part time category employees, you are an extremely naive little boy.
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An alternative course of action would be for affected NAC employees to create some major embarassment to the company by organising some union style action at the upcoming NAC Family Fun day being held by NAC. Make up some banners out of broomsticks and bedsheets and parade up and down the area outside the company offices in uniform. Stuff like "Award Pay for NAC Pilots" or " NAC pilots united against Scabs", " PILOT SCABS" etc etc will get plenty of attention from parents wanting to bring little Samantha along for a jumping castle ride, couple that with the free media interest and you can beat this clown at his own game on his one big day of glory. HA is one for free publiclity at every turn, why not really give him some to remember. I'll fly myself up from Brisbane just to to see that happen.
Do it guys! It'll send him a very clear message!
Sounds like something more appropriate to the Gay Mardi Gras!
From the sublime to the ridiculous! Your post is extremely childish!!
"...upcoming NAC Family Fun day being held by NAC." ... and I assume every aviation company in Australia provides a company funded Family Fun Day for it's staff and families?
Woomera
Do it guys! It'll send him a very clear message!
Sounds like something more appropriate to the Gay Mardi Gras!
From the sublime to the ridiculous! Your post is extremely childish!!
"...upcoming NAC Family Fun day being held by NAC." ... and I assume every aviation company in Australia provides a company funded Family Fun Day for it's staff and families?
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 21st Jul 2004 at 01:25.
You guys seem very intent on using the current group of pilots to get this point across and in doing so, probably lose their jobs.
Interested to know how many of you advocating such action have actually worked for HA in the past, and those that have, why wasn't such action taken when you were there?
You seem to be putting a great deal of pressure on the current pilot group without yourselves putting anything on the line. Talk of NAC pilots who crumble now furthur contributing to the deterioration of pilot conditions in our industry is unfair. Perhaps if every pilot around the country who is receiving anything less than full award entitlements was to put their money where their mouth is and go out in sympathy for their NAC bretheran, things might change. Until then, ease up a bit eh!
Interested to know how many of you advocating such action have actually worked for HA in the past, and those that have, why wasn't such action taken when you were there?
You seem to be putting a great deal of pressure on the current pilot group without yourselves putting anything on the line. Talk of NAC pilots who crumble now furthur contributing to the deterioration of pilot conditions in our industry is unfair. Perhaps if every pilot around the country who is receiving anything less than full award entitlements was to put their money where their mouth is and go out in sympathy for their NAC bretheran, things might change. Until then, ease up a bit eh!
Gatfield,
Isn't that the biggest problem with this industry?? Undercutting other pilots who are simply trying to get what they are legally entitled to.
To insinuate that people who are simply trying to get their dues are overpaid is a disgrace. Hang your head in shame.
I hope all the NAC staff have the courage of their conviction, stand up for themselves and get what they're entitled to. I wish I had. I wish you all the best. Good luck guys.
I know alot of kiwi pilots who would love to get paid any where near what NAC is supposedly offering.
To insinuate that people who are simply trying to get their dues are overpaid is a disgrace. Hang your head in shame.
I hope all the NAC staff have the courage of their conviction, stand up for themselves and get what they're entitled to. I wish I had. I wish you all the best. Good luck guys.
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nor is he the only operator in Darwin who does not pay the full award.
Interested to know how many of you advocating such action have actually worked for HA in the past, and those that have, why wasn't such action taken when you were there?
Although this has been discussed many times before, the award was only introduced retrospectively from the 28 Mar 04; so it is only the current batch of pilots who have the empowerment of the IRC to stand up for a "legal" set of minimum conditions.
Dear pilots at NAC, do not read, "Good luck to the NAC boyz and girlz" and feel industry pressure, but instead the support of industry peers already getting what you deserve. And we all got it much easier. After all, you shouldn't even need to be fighting now it's law.
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DirectAnywhere,
I think it is a disgrace when people can't handle others having opinions which differ from their own.
I think standing up for what you are legally and morally entitled to is important. I never said otherwise.
Problem is many pilots - they can only see things from where they stand. And they are are so quick to judge, critize, bully, whinge and show their ignorance.
I think it is a disgrace when people can't handle others having opinions which differ from their own.
I think standing up for what you are legally and morally entitled to is important. I never said otherwise.
Problem is many pilots - they can only see things from where they stand. And they are are so quick to judge, critize, bully, whinge and show their ignorance.
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I worked there until quite recently. HA thinks that the dollar value per hour is what the pilots want....thats not the part of the award that is so important, its getting paid when you get called in under the premise of going flying, end up spending 4 hours there and not earning a cent. Even that is not the biggest issue, the biggest issue is that everyone there 99% of the time does their best to get jobs done to the best of their ability and works really hard and there reward for it is verbal abuse from HA 50% of the time and , being ignored 40% of the time and 10% treated like you're an old friend. There is no consistancy in any part of the business, people are randomly treated like flavour of the month or removed from the flying roster for no apparent reason. It truely was a weird place to work. I think that NAC would run very well and very smoothly if certain people in management lived in another state and were kept a loooong way from operational descisions.
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Woomera,
Thanks for keeping this thread open. There are two sides to every story, so far we have only heard one. It would be interesting/informative to all to hear the company perspective.
On that note a transparent, anonymous, moderated forum such as this could be a useful tool in dispute resolution. At least more user friendly to all parties concerned than more traditional means, perhaps.
Thanks for keeping this thread open. There are two sides to every story, so far we have only heard one. It would be interesting/informative to all to hear the company perspective.
On that note a transparent, anonymous, moderated forum such as this could be a useful tool in dispute resolution. At least more user friendly to all parties concerned than more traditional means, perhaps.
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Step forward HA
Agreed.
Lets hear HA's side of the story in the honest belief that it may help resolve this dispute.
For the guys and girls involved ; in a year or two you can look back at these days (as I do) and laugh. Hang on and you will be going places most people are dreaming of!!
Lets hear HA's side of the story in the honest belief that it may help resolve this dispute.
For the guys and girls involved ; in a year or two you can look back at these days (as I do) and laugh. Hang on and you will be going places most people are dreaming of!!
Gatfield, you miss the point.
As far as you seem to be concerned, based on your initial post, simply because Kiwi pilots get paid less than those at NAC are being offered makes the NAC pilots the bad guys.
I AM criticising you. However, I'm not whinging, nor am I bullying you as you seem to imply. Telling others that they are worth less than they should be getting paid simply because you, or others you know, are being paid less is pretty low.
This is the reason pilot's conditions are deteriorating. How would you feel if someone offered to do your job for less? Would you feel quite so magnanimous towards them then? These guys are worth every cent that the award says they're entitled to - whether it be more or less than their Kiwi cousins.
I know you're not going to see my point of view on this subject but opinions like yours are the reason GA conditions are such a travesty. Someone, such as yourself, is always willing to cut down the taller poppies to get their little extra bit of sunshine.
I wish you all the best.
As far as you seem to be concerned, based on your initial post, simply because Kiwi pilots get paid less than those at NAC are being offered makes the NAC pilots the bad guys.
I AM criticising you. However, I'm not whinging, nor am I bullying you as you seem to imply. Telling others that they are worth less than they should be getting paid simply because you, or others you know, are being paid less is pretty low.
This is the reason pilot's conditions are deteriorating. How would you feel if someone offered to do your job for less? Would you feel quite so magnanimous towards them then? These guys are worth every cent that the award says they're entitled to - whether it be more or less than their Kiwi cousins.
I know you're not going to see my point of view on this subject but opinions like yours are the reason GA conditions are such a travesty. Someone, such as yourself, is always willing to cut down the taller poppies to get their little extra bit of sunshine.
I wish you all the best.
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currawong. I see no reason why NAC should justify it's actions to any person or group other than it's own staff and those authorities authorised to investigate allegations or complaints made by staff.
m-dot. What dispute?
The employees of NAC have an appropriate remedy if .... if they are being disadvantaged - and I see no substantial and proven facts in this thread to confirm this is the case.
NAC are not obliged to justify their actions in PPRuNe, rather if any NAC employee feels he is disadvantaged their remedy is via DEWR or OEA.
Threads of this nature are regularly removed from PPRuNe forums, however I will leave this thread open for now. If any derogatory posts are made regarding NAC, it's Managing Director or it's staff which are contrary to PPRuNe rules, the post (or thread) will be removed and user's access rights may be restricted.
Woomera
m-dot. What dispute?
The employees of NAC have an appropriate remedy if .... if they are being disadvantaged - and I see no substantial and proven facts in this thread to confirm this is the case.
NAC are not obliged to justify their actions in PPRuNe, rather if any NAC employee feels he is disadvantaged their remedy is via DEWR or OEA.
Threads of this nature are regularly removed from PPRuNe forums, however I will leave this thread open for now. If any derogatory posts are made regarding NAC, it's Managing Director or it's staff which are contrary to PPRuNe rules, the post (or thread) will be removed and user's access rights may be restricted.
Woomera
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When's the open day?
Woomera, maybe you should spend a week at NAC and see for yourself what goes on. I Know that you are trying to be subjective but when you know what HA gets away with, it really curdles your blood.
I'm trying to be OBJECTIVE, not SUBJECTIVE!
Woomera
Woomera, maybe you should spend a week at NAC and see for yourself what goes on. I Know that you are trying to be subjective but when you know what HA gets away with, it really curdles your blood.
I'm trying to be OBJECTIVE, not SUBJECTIVE!
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 21st Jul 2004 at 02:58.
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Direct Anywhere,
You have made many assumptions about what I think. In the process you have totally missed my point.
What I was trying to suggest is that there are many angles to every situation. And while everyone is hung up on this NT award, I couldn't help thinking about some of my friends who work in NZ who get paid $10 - $18 hr. I wasn't suggesting anything more than this.
And I wasn't suggesting that YOU in particular were a bully or whinging or anything else. But many pilots do, are never can see anything other than from their point of view. I don't agree with pilots flying for free or undercutting other pilots and I wouldn't do this myself. But there are reasons pilots do this and attacking them doesn't offer any solutions.
So very few pilots I come across seem to think very little what it must be like being an operator. For many pilots, all they think seem to think about is their flying, their back pocket. And while I applaud those who have made positive contributions to change, the reality is it is not going to happen over night. The reality is is that far too many people want to be pilots and many operators don't charge what they should. If they did the industry would surely be smaller and less pilots employed. What is the solution? I'm not sure. But I find many pilots reactions and their aggressive attitudes not very helpful. There are many ways to achieve change - one doesn't always have to run around with a banner and shouting slogans- and attacking other pilots!
I hope the situation at NAC is resolved amicably for both pilots and operator without having to resort calling in the media or taking court action or other such drastic measures.
Why am I wasting so much time trying to keep this thread on track????
There is no "grey scale" to this matter nor is there an "NT award".
Either the pilots concerned are paid in accordance with the Pilots (General Aviation) Award or are being paid in accordance with an Australian Worker Agreement (AWA) registered with the OEA.
It would be extremely unlikely any pilot employed by a general aviation AOC holder would qualify as an Independent Contractor and certainly not for the sole purpose of negating or avoiding Award obligations.
Woomera
You have made many assumptions about what I think. In the process you have totally missed my point.
What I was trying to suggest is that there are many angles to every situation. And while everyone is hung up on this NT award, I couldn't help thinking about some of my friends who work in NZ who get paid $10 - $18 hr. I wasn't suggesting anything more than this.
And I wasn't suggesting that YOU in particular were a bully or whinging or anything else. But many pilots do, are never can see anything other than from their point of view. I don't agree with pilots flying for free or undercutting other pilots and I wouldn't do this myself. But there are reasons pilots do this and attacking them doesn't offer any solutions.
So very few pilots I come across seem to think very little what it must be like being an operator. For many pilots, all they think seem to think about is their flying, their back pocket. And while I applaud those who have made positive contributions to change, the reality is it is not going to happen over night. The reality is is that far too many people want to be pilots and many operators don't charge what they should. If they did the industry would surely be smaller and less pilots employed. What is the solution? I'm not sure. But I find many pilots reactions and their aggressive attitudes not very helpful. There are many ways to achieve change - one doesn't always have to run around with a banner and shouting slogans- and attacking other pilots!
I hope the situation at NAC is resolved amicably for both pilots and operator without having to resort calling in the media or taking court action or other such drastic measures.
Why am I wasting so much time trying to keep this thread on track????
There is no "grey scale" to this matter nor is there an "NT award".
Either the pilots concerned are paid in accordance with the Pilots (General Aviation) Award or are being paid in accordance with an Australian Worker Agreement (AWA) registered with the OEA.
It would be extremely unlikely any pilot employed by a general aviation AOC holder would qualify as an Independent Contractor and certainly not for the sole purpose of negating or avoiding Award obligations.
Woomera
Last edited by Woomera; 21st Jul 2004 at 02:56.
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Reagardless of what the NAC pilots are getting or Going to get I can bet you there isn't one company on the Airfield that is paying the Award in it's entirety.
The Award covers a lot of expenditures that pilots are presently not reimbursed for. So to all you who are giving advice to the NAC pilots, Ask your selves whether or not your getting the award.
Could someone please Tell me which Company is supposedly paying the award and do their pilots recieve Phone allowances etc..
Paying the Awards hourly rate does not qualify a company to suggest that they are paying the Award.
Suggesting it is the NAC pilots fight for the Award is a bit rich when no one else is paying the Award in it's entire format.
I hope they do fight for it and get it and be the first company to get the whole lot.
As any employee does, a pilot deserve a fair days pay for a fair days work.
Basically the Award gives a two hour minimum at a set rate this gives the pilot a base for a fair days pay. Out of the whole award this is the bit that is the most valuable.
Before the Award pilots had no bargaining power at all now we finally have a form of leverage that we can use to better our conditions.
If it is true that NAC pilots are going to be contracted are they still bound by the Award???? are they still entitled to be paid the award or better??? And who is responsible for this?? the Contractor or the Employer???
And to all you who say that you are getting the award, you'll probably find your not. So make sure you get everything you are entitled to.
The Award covers a lot of expenditures that pilots are presently not reimbursed for. So to all you who are giving advice to the NAC pilots, Ask your selves whether or not your getting the award.
Could someone please Tell me which Company is supposedly paying the award and do their pilots recieve Phone allowances etc..
Paying the Awards hourly rate does not qualify a company to suggest that they are paying the Award.
Suggesting it is the NAC pilots fight for the Award is a bit rich when no one else is paying the Award in it's entire format.
I hope they do fight for it and get it and be the first company to get the whole lot.
As any employee does, a pilot deserve a fair days pay for a fair days work.
Basically the Award gives a two hour minimum at a set rate this gives the pilot a base for a fair days pay. Out of the whole award this is the bit that is the most valuable.
Before the Award pilots had no bargaining power at all now we finally have a form of leverage that we can use to better our conditions.
If it is true that NAC pilots are going to be contracted are they still bound by the Award???? are they still entitled to be paid the award or better??? And who is responsible for this?? the Contractor or the Employer???
And to all you who say that you are getting the award, you'll probably find your not. So make sure you get everything you are entitled to.
True, if you read the Pilots' Award in its entirety, you could always come up with some small extra that we don't pay. It's a complicated document. But the company I work for does pay the award fulltime rate, the required days off, the award hourly rate for casuals, and the stated minimums for duty, which is the biggest difference in wages between us and NAC. We have to pay between 50% to over 200% more per day per pilot, depending on the duty/flight time compared to NAC. And thats the main issue!
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True, if you read the Pilots' Award in its entirety, you could always come up with some small extra that we don't pay. It's a complicated document.
This is no excuse for not paying the award.
But the company I work for does pay the award fulltime rate, the required days off, the award hourly rate for casuals, and the stated minimums for duty, which is the biggest difference in wages between us and NAC.
But yet still doesn't pay the Award in it's Full. Neither does NAC. So whats the difference. Your company chooses not pay all the Award so does NAC. It's just that NAC pays a lot less at the moment.
We have to pay between 50% to over 200% more per day per pilot, depending on the duty/flight time compared to NAC. And thats the main issue!
The Main issue is what the pilots deserve not what the Company pays. Should the pilots in your company deserve the whole Award?? or just the bits that you think they deserve.
Just curious but has flying dropped since the pay increase????
Is the company hurting as a result???
This is no excuse for not paying the award.
But the company I work for does pay the award fulltime rate, the required days off, the award hourly rate for casuals, and the stated minimums for duty, which is the biggest difference in wages between us and NAC.
But yet still doesn't pay the Award in it's Full. Neither does NAC. So whats the difference. Your company chooses not pay all the Award so does NAC. It's just that NAC pays a lot less at the moment.
We have to pay between 50% to over 200% more per day per pilot, depending on the duty/flight time compared to NAC. And thats the main issue!
The Main issue is what the pilots deserve not what the Company pays. Should the pilots in your company deserve the whole Award?? or just the bits that you think they deserve.
Just curious but has flying dropped since the pay increase????
Is the company hurting as a result???
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It would be extremely unlikely any pilot employed by a general aviation AOC holder would qualify as an Independent Contractor and certainly not for the sole purpose of negating or avoiding Award obligations.
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Woomera,
No, the company is not obliged to justify itself here.
In the interests of fairness, they should at least be given the opportunity. Had you killed the thread when you stated you wished to, you would have effectivly removed their right of reply.
There could be any number of reasons the crews at this company got this brief.
If you are concerned that the company has been named, edit the thread. Or at least refrain from naming them yourself.
If the thread is as baseless as you suggest, then kill it.
Why do you seem touchy about this one?
Currawong. I'm no more "touchy" about NAC than I am about any other AOC holder being criticised in PPRuNe. I am sympathetic to any employee who is being deprived of his just remuneration, regardless of who that operator is.
I'm not getting the basic fundamental across:
If the staff of any AOC holder in NT or ACT, or any AOC holder roped in under the Award are not being paid in accordance with an Award or a registered AWA, they have a remedy at law.
That remedy is not allegations in PPRuNe - I have already provided links to the appropriate agencies.
I have received numerous emails on this thread - more than any thread for some time - however none of the emails appear to be from NAC staff.
Woomera
[email protected]
No, the company is not obliged to justify itself here.
In the interests of fairness, they should at least be given the opportunity. Had you killed the thread when you stated you wished to, you would have effectivly removed their right of reply.
There could be any number of reasons the crews at this company got this brief.
If you are concerned that the company has been named, edit the thread. Or at least refrain from naming them yourself.
If the thread is as baseless as you suggest, then kill it.
Why do you seem touchy about this one?
Currawong. I'm no more "touchy" about NAC than I am about any other AOC holder being criticised in PPRuNe. I am sympathetic to any employee who is being deprived of his just remuneration, regardless of who that operator is.
I'm not getting the basic fundamental across:
If the staff of any AOC holder in NT or ACT, or any AOC holder roped in under the Award are not being paid in accordance with an Award or a registered AWA, they have a remedy at law.
That remedy is not allegations in PPRuNe - I have already provided links to the appropriate agencies.
I have received numerous emails on this thread - more than any thread for some time - however none of the emails appear to be from NAC staff.
Woomera
[email protected]
Last edited by Woomera; 21st Jul 2004 at 22:37.