When to say NO!
Thread Starter
When to say NO!
Yet another riddle to rattle your brains.
Lets say you were working for a third level operator.
This operator had found a way to make you work hours, which for the last 15 years had been considered far too excessive. Special exemption from CASA. By making you work these hours the other pilot (with about 1/4 of your experience + resonably fresh to multi flying) was reduced to flying enough hours to only just keep him/her current on the operation.
Your rest facilities are far from desirable - a mattress on the floor. No heater, no fan etc even though they had been asked for several times.
Duty times and rest periods are been pressed to the absolute limits - with only minutes to spare at each end.
You are still required to re-confirgure and refuel the aircraft when it is due to be swapped for maintainence, resulting in you infringing on your rest period by 2 1/2 hours.
When using a temporary aircraft, you are instructed to operate it without the correct restraints.
You feel tired most of the time (almost falling asleep whilst flying).
You have tried everything from fatigue forms to refusing to work. Yet nothing has been done. No action taking. But you can't quit as you need the money, don't want a worse rep than neccessary, and want to keep flying because besides all this you do still enjoy it.
What would you do???
s2k4 eva
Lets say you were working for a third level operator.
This operator had found a way to make you work hours, which for the last 15 years had been considered far too excessive. Special exemption from CASA. By making you work these hours the other pilot (with about 1/4 of your experience + resonably fresh to multi flying) was reduced to flying enough hours to only just keep him/her current on the operation.
Your rest facilities are far from desirable - a mattress on the floor. No heater, no fan etc even though they had been asked for several times.
Duty times and rest periods are been pressed to the absolute limits - with only minutes to spare at each end.
You are still required to re-confirgure and refuel the aircraft when it is due to be swapped for maintainence, resulting in you infringing on your rest period by 2 1/2 hours.
When using a temporary aircraft, you are instructed to operate it without the correct restraints.
You feel tired most of the time (almost falling asleep whilst flying).
You have tried everything from fatigue forms to refusing to work. Yet nothing has been done. No action taking. But you can't quit as you need the money, don't want a worse rep than neccessary, and want to keep flying because besides all this you do still enjoy it.
What would you do???
s2k4 eva
Last edited by Sqwark2004; 21st May 2004 at 00:26.
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This sounds like a remarkably familiar tale!!
Also sounds remarkably North Island, East coast-ish type of operation
I'd get involved with ALPA, record & document everything, keep pointing out non-compliance issues with the boss, if still nothing being done to fix things then ask ALPA to represent your concerns to management.
Even try and get a "united front" with all the other employees (ALPA membership etc) so that the boss doesn't think he/she can just replace you with a click of their fingers.
I know it's a bit of a "ideal world" scenario but the cycle has stop somewhere. I sympathise with your predicament as I was involved with a similar operation that wasn't as bad but was short of compliance is some areas & I witnessed on operation as described in the original post.
Whatever you do don't compromise your safety for your boss' bottom line. He won't give you a bonus for it or even a thank you, because he would be acknowledging YOU were breaking some CAA rule for his benefit.
Good luck
S2k
NI, East Coast
2000-2004
Also sounds remarkably North Island, East coast-ish type of operation
I'd get involved with ALPA, record & document everything, keep pointing out non-compliance issues with the boss, if still nothing being done to fix things then ask ALPA to represent your concerns to management.
Even try and get a "united front" with all the other employees (ALPA membership etc) so that the boss doesn't think he/she can just replace you with a click of their fingers.
I know it's a bit of a "ideal world" scenario but the cycle has stop somewhere. I sympathise with your predicament as I was involved with a similar operation that wasn't as bad but was short of compliance is some areas & I witnessed on operation as described in the original post.
Whatever you do don't compromise your safety for your boss' bottom line. He won't give you a bonus for it or even a thank you, because he would be acknowledging YOU were breaking some CAA rule for his benefit.
Good luck
S2k
NI, East Coast
2000-2004
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Squark2004,
If the Queenair you are referring to is a ZK registration, then it is operating under CAA Rule Part 91. There are no flight or duty time limitations applicable, nor are there any rules required under part 135 to be complied with. And the decision as to whether it should be a part 91 or part 135 operation rests entirely with the operator. What rule would you operate under for least cost???.
Prospector
If the Queenair you are referring to is a ZK registration, then it is operating under CAA Rule Part 91. There are no flight or duty time limitations applicable, nor are there any rules required under part 135 to be complied with. And the decision as to whether it should be a part 91 or part 135 operation rests entirely with the operator. What rule would you operate under for least cost???.
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A very suss post from S2K4.
I am also familiar with the NZ Queenair operation and yes it is a Part 91 op which doesn't attempt to meet any of the requirements mentioned in the original post. However the company I'm thinking of, has all the qualities and sounds like it's still the same.
Suggest you delete your post and thus the thread S2K4, if you don't wan't a public flogging for your employers name (again!)
Still best of luck to you if you are involved in such a situation.
S2K
I am also familiar with the NZ Queenair operation and yes it is a Part 91 op which doesn't attempt to meet any of the requirements mentioned in the original post. However the company I'm thinking of, has all the qualities and sounds like it's still the same.
Suggest you delete your post and thus the thread S2K4, if you don't wan't a public flogging for your employers name (again!)
Still best of luck to you if you are involved in such a situation.
S2K
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Sqwark2004,
You are between a rock and a hard place. Many of us have been there. The only advice I would like to give is to read the accident reports and coroners reports that have been written in the last 30 years.
No where will you find a statement that the pilot stuck his neck out to help his employer. You will find mentioned many rules and regulations that should have been complied with, but have never been enforced by the regulator. The regulator has after all been to many wine and cheese evenings paid for by the employer, but never to any paid for by a young and vulnerable aeroplane driver. Some of us have spent many years surviving in this environment, and know where you are coming from.
Advice? very difficult to give, if you feel in your bones it is not on, give it away and look for a position that will give you job satisfaction without continual hassle, difficult at the start of a career, but better that than to be one the many who have featured in accident reports.
Prospector
You are between a rock and a hard place. Many of us have been there. The only advice I would like to give is to read the accident reports and coroners reports that have been written in the last 30 years.
No where will you find a statement that the pilot stuck his neck out to help his employer. You will find mentioned many rules and regulations that should have been complied with, but have never been enforced by the regulator. The regulator has after all been to many wine and cheese evenings paid for by the employer, but never to any paid for by a young and vulnerable aeroplane driver. Some of us have spent many years surviving in this environment, and know where you are coming from.
Advice? very difficult to give, if you feel in your bones it is not on, give it away and look for a position that will give you job satisfaction without continual hassle, difficult at the start of a career, but better that than to be one the many who have featured in accident reports.
Prospector
Speaking from experience there are many successful pilots out there who have turned down an early twin gig because of poor operational standards/ safety culture at the said organisation.
While I am sure you will find that some of these guys have since given up flying as all too hard and too much mucking around, I for one only became more focussed on what I want to do and where I want to be and have since moved on.
A problem arising at a nearby organisation is worth keeping in mind:
Over the last couple of years this organisation has hired a lot of junior pilots eventually progressing them on to twins if they "perform" IMO the saving grace at this organisation has been the leadership showed not by the Chief Pilot or Management but the senior pilots who work hard and remain professional under all circumstances. When push came to shove regarding regulatory conformance it has always been up to these guys to say no and make their reasons clear and loud so that the young guys did not go and fly the job.
Unfortunately, in recent times things have changed and some of the more respected assertive types have moved on and left a deep gap. The organisation is now in a position where the only guy setting any example (good or bad) is "Lucky Luke" the Chief Pilot. As a result the younger guys are simply accepting all sorts of regulatory breaches as the norm.
If you have given your time and energy to the company and showed them loyalty, all you can do is hope for their loyalty in return when you stand up for safety. Anything else is kidding yourself.
If you are pushed out of an organisation because you stand up for safety all you can do is report the breaches to the authority and spread the message around to other young hopefuls.
Good Luck!
While I am sure you will find that some of these guys have since given up flying as all too hard and too much mucking around, I for one only became more focussed on what I want to do and where I want to be and have since moved on.
A problem arising at a nearby organisation is worth keeping in mind:
Over the last couple of years this organisation has hired a lot of junior pilots eventually progressing them on to twins if they "perform" IMO the saving grace at this organisation has been the leadership showed not by the Chief Pilot or Management but the senior pilots who work hard and remain professional under all circumstances. When push came to shove regarding regulatory conformance it has always been up to these guys to say no and make their reasons clear and loud so that the young guys did not go and fly the job.
Unfortunately, in recent times things have changed and some of the more respected assertive types have moved on and left a deep gap. The organisation is now in a position where the only guy setting any example (good or bad) is "Lucky Luke" the Chief Pilot. As a result the younger guys are simply accepting all sorts of regulatory breaches as the norm.
If you have given your time and energy to the company and showed them loyalty, all you can do is hope for their loyalty in return when you stand up for safety. Anything else is kidding yourself.
If you are pushed out of an organisation because you stand up for safety all you can do is report the breaches to the authority and spread the message around to other young hopefuls.
Good Luck!
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No win situations
I have not ever had to say "no" as often as I have in the last two or so months in my current job, and it never seems to get any easier. What do you do in a situation where you really should say "no" but you risk pizzing off one of the company's best long time customers?
I chose to say "no", and a few days later received a complaint. Luckily it was possible to smooth the waters and we won the customer back, but why do people expect everything for nothing and hold such little regard for the potential consequences of pushing limits when it is ultimately their own safety at stake?
This problem is not only restricted to within the operator/operation.
520.
I chose to say "no", and a few days later received a complaint. Luckily it was possible to smooth the waters and we won the customer back, but why do people expect everything for nothing and hold such little regard for the potential consequences of pushing limits when it is ultimately their own safety at stake?
This problem is not only restricted to within the operator/operation.
520.
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Worst case scenario.... who is to become a statistic...... and who are you going to take with you?
If you feel the local CAA office is compromised, go to the next level.
If you have tried everything you have at your power, and still nothing changes, you have been deemed to have tried and met your duty of care.
If you feel like chatting pm me....... Ive been there.
If you feel the local CAA office is compromised, go to the next level.
If you have tried everything you have at your power, and still nothing changes, you have been deemed to have tried and met your duty of care.
If you feel like chatting pm me....... Ive been there.
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I probably shouldn't ask the question, but where are the Chief Pilots of these types of companies and what are they saying when you raise the issue with them?
First port of call should be the CP.
If no action from the CP then a trip to the company GM or a Director, and if that port of call isn't appropriate then its off to the CASA local office you go. If the CASA local office dosn't deal with the issue then its off to CASA in Canberra. If CASA in Canberra do not deal with it then you go to the Minister. If the Minister dosnt deal with it then turn the whole affair over to public scrutiny and hand it to the media.
While your thinking about the above processes, even if you think it should be OK and its probably safe to keep doing what they are asking, ask yourself is it compliant with the orders, regulations and the act. Because if its not then you need to ask yourself do you want a criminal conviction with potential jail terms hung on the end of it.
Look, I realise that some operators have less than ideal Chief Pilots and some GM's/Owners have higher priorities than those of safety and compliance. But think about the REASON model of accident prevention and if you end up as that last barrier that prevents the accident, you have done yourself, your family, your friends, your Chief Pilot, your GM', your work mates and probably even the insurance assessors a great service.
My thoughts for what they are worth anyway!
First port of call should be the CP.
If no action from the CP then a trip to the company GM or a Director, and if that port of call isn't appropriate then its off to the CASA local office you go. If the CASA local office dosn't deal with the issue then its off to CASA in Canberra. If CASA in Canberra do not deal with it then you go to the Minister. If the Minister dosnt deal with it then turn the whole affair over to public scrutiny and hand it to the media.
While your thinking about the above processes, even if you think it should be OK and its probably safe to keep doing what they are asking, ask yourself is it compliant with the orders, regulations and the act. Because if its not then you need to ask yourself do you want a criminal conviction with potential jail terms hung on the end of it.
Look, I realise that some operators have less than ideal Chief Pilots and some GM's/Owners have higher priorities than those of safety and compliance. But think about the REASON model of accident prevention and if you end up as that last barrier that prevents the accident, you have done yourself, your family, your friends, your Chief Pilot, your GM', your work mates and probably even the insurance assessors a great service.
My thoughts for what they are worth anyway!
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Never forget the grim reality that there is no shortage of highly principled unemployed pilots. Draw your own line in the sand. Think carefully before going to CASA - they leak like a seive and while you will be out of a job, you can be sure your employer will only get a slap over the wrist. You cannot win in the GA industry.
