Massey training
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What does it really matter where someone gets their licence, purely because that is all it is, getting a licence.
I have flowen with persons of many thousands of hours whom i was left wondering if they had obtained there last BFR off the back of a cereal box with $2.95 P&P, while some freash CPL students have blowen me away with accuracy and superb attitude.
I think a persons first instructor and would even go as far as to say first couple of lessons affect the way they fly and there attitude towards aviaition for a very long time.
Yes a persons own self disipline may overcome crap instruction in the future if they are lucky enought to pick up on the fact they have been tought crap, but i have an inherrant distrust in the human race and therefore tend to think that this seldom happens.
Thread Starter
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While your 'inherrent distrust in the human race' may be well founded it seems that from many of the replies posted here the massey students are not even being given the oppertunity to disprove this theory. It seems as they are already tarnished with the stigma from training at massey and due to this they are not capable pilots in the GA world?
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fox3snapshot
If you ASSUME you make an ASS of U and ME.
Perhaps you should read the last line of my post
and yes I have been exposed I lived in Parafield gardens for 4 years as a young fella.
I am well aware of what training orgs are like the thread is about MASSEY hence the comments on MASSEY and no other training establishments.
splat
Perhaps you should read the last line of my post
and yes I have been exposed I lived in Parafield gardens for 4 years as a young fella.I am well aware of what training orgs are like the thread is about MASSEY hence the comments on MASSEY and no other training establishments.
splat
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Fox3snapshot -
You are the one who has no idea about what or whom you speak.
You might be very surprised to find out the basis on which nike and splat are actually capable of passing informed judgments on Massey.
Sure there are a few good pilots make it through the program despite its shortcomings, however the graduate ratio of plonkers to capable pilots is far far higher than it should be, given the high and mighty drivel that frequently emanates from not only its marketing department but many of its senior managerial and academic staff.
I have made my own opinions known at length on here and can't be bothered to write them all again right now but I don't really need to because the whole industry knows the truth.
If you are reading this and even thinking about training at Massey then do yourself a favour and apply this simple test : go to your nearest airport, stick your head into any crew room of any airline, and ask the first pilot you see what their opinion of Massey graduates is
You are the one who has no idea about what or whom you speak.
You might be very surprised to find out the basis on which nike and splat are actually capable of passing informed judgments on Massey.
Sure there are a few good pilots make it through the program despite its shortcomings, however the graduate ratio of plonkers to capable pilots is far far higher than it should be, given the high and mighty drivel that frequently emanates from not only its marketing department but many of its senior managerial and academic staff.
I have made my own opinions known at length on here and can't be bothered to write them all again right now but I don't really need to because the whole industry knows the truth.
If you are reading this and even thinking about training at Massey then do yourself a favour and apply this simple test : go to your nearest airport, stick your head into any crew room of any airline, and ask the first pilot you see what their opinion of Massey graduates is
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I think most pilots or controllers would have a horror story about a run in with a massey student, i was nearly cleaned up be a massey pa-28 leaving an uncontrolled circuit and have heard far worse stories, but thats the same for most schools of a similar size to massey when students basically seem to be units of production (the old sausage factory story) but i guess massey students are exactly that - students who like most students will screw the pooch once or twice. I think alot of students at these places are having a lot of smoke blown up their backsides as to their training and job prospects at the end of it all. Training with a commercial operator i think is a better way to go as you get some exposure to the realities of the industry, but at the end of the day employers will look at where you trained but what you did inbetween that is going to count.
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I think the problem with these big flight schools is that they develop a bit of a vicious cycle. You have generally below average students turning into below average instructors, thus teaching thier lack of understanding of the basics to other students. And the cycle continues. It's only a small percentage of pilots who graduate from these sausage factories who get the good jobs.
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What a load of BS
"a lot of smoke blown up their backsides as to their training and job prospects at the end of it all" Do you think these students
think their instructor is there for fun and they will move above
them on the food chain with 200 hours!???
"a lot of smoke blown up their backsides as to their training and job prospects at the end of it all" Do you think these students
think their instructor is there for fun and they will move above
them on the food chain with 200 hours!???
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Speeds High:
You are dreaming mate. Most people could not even remember their first few lessons, let alone be forever influenced by them. Insignificant.
Arggh. That is the whole point!!! Everybody is different. You cannot label people based on preconception or some aspect their background. Tread with care if you continue to do this, or you may someday become severly "unstuck"
Luke Skybaby:
Why??
And if you did, I hope the response you would get is something along the lines of "p!ss off". Normal people have more important things to do than to play your childish games. Go home and change your nappies.
Nike:
then later...
Sudden change of tack there Nike. What happened? spine fall out? Perhaps you too fired from the hip but but your smoking gun was too much for you and it dropped on your foot and made you cry?
One thing I do despise is bullies. That is what I see alot of Massey bashing being about. Its the school yard psyche. Regurgitating ill feelings in a particular direction, just because the others are, so thats the way its done. Graduates are helpless cannot lash out for they are at the bottom of the heap, and who cares anyway.
I was lucky. I did not come up against this stigma, that I was aware of. I do hear stories of others that do. Small people, smaller minds.
However, I do also suspect that some use it as a crutch to explain or lay blame on others as to why things are not working out. Again, small people.
My point? Be careful where you spit, you may slip over in it one day.
I think a persons first instructor and would even go as far as to say first couple of lessons affect the way they fly and there attitude towards aviaition for a very long time.
I have flowen with persons of many thousands of hours whom i was left wondering if they had obtained there last BFR off the back of a cereal box with $2.95 P&P, while some freash CPL students have blowen me away with accuracy and superb attitude.
Luke Skybaby:
go to your nearest airport, stick your head into any crew room of any airline, and ask the first pilot you see what their opinion of Massey graduates is
And if you did, I hope the response you would get is something along the lines of "p!ss off". Normal people have more important things to do than to play your childish games. Go home and change your nappies.
Nike:
As for Massey being better or worse, I think the whole lot are shockers.
I have no ill with Massey, nor any other Organisation.
One thing I do despise is bullies. That is what I see alot of Massey bashing being about. Its the school yard psyche. Regurgitating ill feelings in a particular direction, just because the others are, so thats the way its done. Graduates are helpless cannot lash out for they are at the bottom of the heap, and who cares anyway.
I was lucky. I did not come up against this stigma, that I was aware of. I do hear stories of others that do. Small people, smaller minds.
However, I do also suspect that some use it as a crutch to explain or lay blame on others as to why things are not working out. Again, small people.
My point? Be careful where you spit, you may slip over in it one day.
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Ah, the usual "backward smallminded screwed up NZers" mentality. Would have thought a lot depends on the student and their attitude and ability which pretty much goes for flight training anywhere. AFS churn out CPLs, you telling me there aren't a few muppets there too? So a few at Massey aspire to jets early on, so what. Plenty of new CPLs in the rest of the world don't go through the equivalent f**ked up GA/Regional circus that is NZ, they go straight in RHS 737 and are the better for it.
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And if you did, I hope the response you would get is something along the lines of "p!ss off". Normal people have more important things to do than to play your childish games. Go home and change your nappies.
)And that's another thing ... the bloody sheep mentality of some of these students ... the ones who come up to you halfway through their CPL training all upset because the penny's suddenly dropped - normally about the time they notice that their flying instructor has got 2,000 hours and been instructing for 5 years and desperately trying to get out of the place. That goes for ANY of the big schools who routinely lie to their prospective students. How could someone standing on the brink of maybe going and blowing off $100,000 and 3 years of their life, why would you NOT go find as many airline pilots as possible and canvas their opinions on how they got there and what they think the best way to get there is?
Unlike some others here with hidden agendas I've got absolutely nothing to lose. I'm already flying for an airline and so are quite a few other contributors on this thread. However I don't approve of people who look prospective customers in the eye and lie through their teeth, ( a practice that is far far too widespread in NZ GA ) hence why I take every opportunity to try and encourage wannabes to find out the truth for themselves.
Anyway I stand by everything I said ... I don't have to damn Massey because there are thousands of others who'll do it for me. If you do indeed get told to p!ss off by some airline pilot, (which you won't), then go find some former Massey students (you'll find them working in Burger Kind the length and breadth of the country
) Ask current students. Ask people from other schools and aero clubs. Ask people who fly charter and scenics and air ambulances up and down the country. You shouldn't have to ask more than a few and you'll get a pretty clear and consistent picture coming through.Or you could just do like 90% of the others, believe everything in the glossy brochures, line up like sheep and hand over those big student loan pay checks. Your choice
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CLOUDCOVER:
Ex massey student eh? I think smoke blown up their backsides is a very mild way to put it. i have had the massey sales pitch and had i beleived any of it i would have sign over $68k then and there! Christ i bet the boys at massey are having the time of their lives and it will give them some fond memories for when they move on to the service station down the road.
Massey is in the group of school's who promise the world and then when they fail to deliver tell you to read the small print.
Ex massey student eh? I think smoke blown up their backsides is a very mild way to put it. i have had the massey sales pitch and had i beleived any of it i would have sign over $68k then and there! Christ i bet the boys at massey are having the time of their lives and it will give them some fond memories for when they move on to the service station down the road.
Massey is in the group of school's who promise the world and then when they fail to deliver tell you to read the small print.
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Why do people confuse the organisation with the students?
Almost any big flying school will tell all sorts of lies (oops I mean Public Relations speeches) about how wonderful they are, and will therefore attract all sorts of sheep, most of whom will end up in a service station or Burger King because they didn't realise that one actually has to work, and hard. Bad organisation! Bad!
And since students at big schools tend to be guided (led by the hand, whatever) through the course, they generally need to be taught the facts of life in their first CPL job. Ignorant students! but not bad I think.
The Blogg's Aero Club graduates however already know the facts of life, and will get a better reputation in that first job. Lots more sheep will go to the service station at this stage, because they don't have what it takes. Slightly less ignorant ex-students now perhaps.
After two years or so, what separates the Blogg's Aero Club-ites from the Big Flying School graduates (gradu-ites?) Not much that I can tell, because both now know the facts of life, and both have proven they have the skill to take care of a light aircraft. Good pilots! Good!
It's a shame that people (according to rumour, lots of people at a HN based operator) won't distinguish between the student sheep destined for the service station, and the two-years-or-more-in-GA hard workers.
Now tell all the stories you like about terrible Massey-trained pilots you've seen / heard. I have no doubt you are telling the truth, and I have my share too. Please also tell stories about ZK-ABC, or DEF or whatever, which did not have the misfortune to carry a memorable callsign.
And please don't build your preconceptions and prejudices by saying you'll burn the forest because the first 20 trees are stunted. Lots of countries have very big forests now, and getting bigger - the forest-growing trend is here to stay, and will no doubt continue to produce many stunted trees along the way.
Thanks for reading my ravings - hope they make sense!
Oktas8
Almost any big flying school will tell all sorts of lies (oops I mean Public Relations speeches) about how wonderful they are, and will therefore attract all sorts of sheep, most of whom will end up in a service station or Burger King because they didn't realise that one actually has to work, and hard. Bad organisation! Bad!
And since students at big schools tend to be guided (led by the hand, whatever) through the course, they generally need to be taught the facts of life in their first CPL job. Ignorant students! but not bad I think.
The Blogg's Aero Club graduates however already know the facts of life, and will get a better reputation in that first job. Lots more sheep will go to the service station at this stage, because they don't have what it takes. Slightly less ignorant ex-students now perhaps.
After two years or so, what separates the Blogg's Aero Club-ites from the Big Flying School graduates (gradu-ites?) Not much that I can tell, because both now know the facts of life, and both have proven they have the skill to take care of a light aircraft. Good pilots! Good!
It's a shame that people (according to rumour, lots of people at a HN based operator) won't distinguish between the student sheep destined for the service station, and the two-years-or-more-in-GA hard workers.
Now tell all the stories you like about terrible Massey-trained pilots you've seen / heard. I have no doubt you are telling the truth, and I have my share too. Please also tell stories about ZK-ABC, or DEF or whatever, which did not have the misfortune to carry a memorable callsign.
And please don't build your preconceptions and prejudices by saying you'll burn the forest because the first 20 trees are stunted. Lots of countries have very big forests now, and getting bigger - the forest-growing trend is here to stay, and will no doubt continue to produce many stunted trees along the way.
Thanks for reading my ravings - hope they make sense!
Oktas8
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wanderinabout:
1/ i never used the word forever
2/ If you ask a psycologist they would tell you that one does not have to remember something to be influenced by it, and also changing someones initial attitude is many times harder than creating that initial attitude. It sticks with them.
reguardless all those i have asked today remember the first time they hoped into an airplane, there first lesson, therre first solo and other important events. I am left wondering why you dont?
Also id like to point out that i never pre-judge someone by there background, and judge them solely by there performance during a flight.
Mt comment was however a little vauge; i find it interesting how many persons from a particular background all preform the same.
You are dreaming mate. Most people could not even remember their first few lessons, let alone be forever influenced by them. Insignificant
2/ If you ask a psycologist they would tell you that one does not have to remember something to be influenced by it, and also changing someones initial attitude is many times harder than creating that initial attitude. It sticks with them.
reguardless all those i have asked today remember the first time they hoped into an airplane, there first lesson, therre first solo and other important events. I am left wondering why you dont?
Also id like to point out that i never pre-judge someone by there background, and judge them solely by there performance during a flight.
Mt comment was however a little vauge; i find it interesting how many persons from a particular background all preform the same.
wandrinabout
I don't really think its a case of my spine falling out. Nor is it a change of tact.
In possibly a less cryptic way....
Look to the students, not the company.
What I was attempting to say in the first instance was...unfortunately there is and probably will always be a sect of the community that will conclude that one individuals misdemeanour or transgression as being a systemic failure of the particular training organisation rather than the individuals failing. I am not sure how we can change that mentality.
As for the whole lot being shockers..I was refering to students, not companies...but agreed, a hip shot...a flashback of being lumped with remedial students and that number of remedials increasing in the later years of my instructing career.
I think OKTAS8 has put across some similar thoughts to what I was attempting to say but clearer than I.
Also in case any future comments waver from one standpoint: I don't think you should interpret my spine as disappearing because I may not maintain a singular militant viewpoint throughout. Remember when having a debate one must be open to the other's veiwpoint or indeed what is the point of the discussion?
I don't really think its a case of my spine falling out. Nor is it a change of tact.
In possibly a less cryptic way....
Look to the students, not the company.
What I was attempting to say in the first instance was...unfortunately there is and probably will always be a sect of the community that will conclude that one individuals misdemeanour or transgression as being a systemic failure of the particular training organisation rather than the individuals failing. I am not sure how we can change that mentality.
As for the whole lot being shockers..I was refering to students, not companies...but agreed, a hip shot...a flashback of being lumped with remedial students and that number of remedials increasing in the later years of my instructing career.
I think OKTAS8 has put across some similar thoughts to what I was attempting to say but clearer than I.
Also in case any future comments waver from one standpoint: I don't think you should interpret my spine as disappearing because I may not maintain a singular militant viewpoint throughout. Remember when having a debate one must be open to the other's veiwpoint or indeed what is the point of the discussion?
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Do pilots anywhere else on the planet have the "my training school's better than your training school mentality"?
Anyone heard the sales pitch from AFS recently, what about the one about how you can join Cathay as a S/O with only 10 hours in your logbook if you fly at AFS?
They are all businesses and with student loans the money is a bit more accesssable to more students. Any school that gives just the cold hard facts isn't going to survive these days in the cut throat world of flight training.
Anyone heard the sales pitch from AFS recently, what about the one about how you can join Cathay as a S/O with only 10 hours in your logbook if you fly at AFS?
They are all businesses and with student loans the money is a bit more accesssable to more students. Any school that gives just the cold hard facts isn't going to survive these days in the cut throat world of flight training.
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I really dont know what the Massey training is like, id like to point this out first, this post is not about the traiing there, but the perception to the outside observer.
Now thats over with.....
It appears to me that Massey have not done themselves any favours, at any point in time.
1) They sit there own exams rather than the ASL exams the rest of us did, the point here is that the rest of the community are left wondering whats wrong with the way we did it
2) The uniforms make them stand out
3) the call signs make them stand out
4) the paint jobs make them stand out
5) Massey instructors and students are rarely seen mixing with other avaiton folk, they seperate themselves out of the bunch
6) The rest of the GA community gets (rightly or wrongly, im not saying which) irate with there big jet ideas.
The avaition community never seperated Massey from itself, right from day one Massey seperated itself from the aviation community. IF your going to do that, and make yourself so visable you had sure as hell better make sure that you are doing it right.
I dont know if Massey are doing it right or wrong, however they need look no further than there own front door when it comes to asking why everyone percives it as wrong.
Now thats over with.....
It appears to me that Massey have not done themselves any favours, at any point in time.
1) They sit there own exams rather than the ASL exams the rest of us did, the point here is that the rest of the community are left wondering whats wrong with the way we did it
2) The uniforms make them stand out
3) the call signs make them stand out
4) the paint jobs make them stand out
5) Massey instructors and students are rarely seen mixing with other avaiton folk, they seperate themselves out of the bunch
6) The rest of the GA community gets (rightly or wrongly, im not saying which) irate with there big jet ideas.
The avaition community never seperated Massey from itself, right from day one Massey seperated itself from the aviation community. IF your going to do that, and make yourself so visable you had sure as hell better make sure that you are doing it right.
I dont know if Massey are doing it right or wrong, however they need look no further than there own front door when it comes to asking why everyone percives it as wrong.
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I think the problem with these big flight schools is that they develop a bit of a vicious cycle. You have generally below average students turning into below average instructors, thus teaching thier lack of understanding of the basics to other students.
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Anyone heard the sales pitch from AFS recently, what about the one about how you can join Cathay as a S/O with only 10 hours in your logbook if you fly at AFS?
I used to fly out of AFS when the Massey op was at full pace and never got the sales pitch you claimed to have. The AFS guys wernt bad and nor have I crossed paths with anyone from massey so apart from the uniforms (
) I dont really give a toss about them enough to whinge.Wheres the Maori Mobster anyway?
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DVDA & Woodend1 - regarding your comments on below average instructors training other below average instructors at Massey:
I don't know about the latest course of Massey C-cats - never met them, don't know what their standard is.
The previous three courses were trained to a higher standard than any other C-cat courses I know of, by one or more A-cats with a reasonable amount of GA experience.
So which particular individuals do you have in mind? No need to name names - just state the year the person got a C-cat.
Now it is true that Massey-trained C-cats tend to get a bit insular because they don't mix with industry. This does lead to a similarity of instructional style developing at an institution, where in a large aero club you get all kinds of styles coming through.
But that is not the same as having low standards.
I've met a very few instructors from different backgrounds I wasn't too sure about. I'd tend to "blame" the individual for that, not the institution.
BTW - please note I'm not defending Massey. My previous post showed that I'm not into defending unethical behaviour or shonky student behaviour. But I am very keen to shine the light on weak arguments of those who further the ridiculous notion that all Massey pilots behave in some particular way just because we've observed that not a few students are absolute plonkers.
For goodness sake - do a course in inductive logic.
Speeds high - [paragraph deleted, not relevant] I agree with your last post.
Oktas8
I don't know about the latest course of Massey C-cats - never met them, don't know what their standard is.
The previous three courses were trained to a higher standard than any other C-cat courses I know of, by one or more A-cats with a reasonable amount of GA experience.
So which particular individuals do you have in mind? No need to name names - just state the year the person got a C-cat.
Now it is true that Massey-trained C-cats tend to get a bit insular because they don't mix with industry. This does lead to a similarity of instructional style developing at an institution, where in a large aero club you get all kinds of styles coming through.
But that is not the same as having low standards.
I've met a very few instructors from different backgrounds I wasn't too sure about. I'd tend to "blame" the individual for that, not the institution.
BTW - please note I'm not defending Massey. My previous post showed that I'm not into defending unethical behaviour or shonky student behaviour. But I am very keen to shine the light on weak arguments of those who further the ridiculous notion that all Massey pilots behave in some particular way just because we've observed that not a few students are absolute plonkers.
For goodness sake - do a course in inductive logic.
Speeds high - [paragraph deleted, not relevant] I agree with your last post.
Oktas8
Last edited by Oktas8; 22nd Feb 2004 at 15:39.