USA Pilot Shortage
The so-called "shortage" of experienced pilots in the USA is somewhat overstated. It may become more accurate an assertion in the future, but for now, there are very few incentives to join a US airline. Pay, schedule and benefits for first year pilots are a joke. They are obviously not too desperate for new pilots yet. They have more trouble finding ramp agents for similar pay. The guys applying to the majors these days need rich wives willing to support their hobby.
Best,
Best,
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Hi!
There is a shortage of experienced pilots:
-Delta didn't get anywhere near the number of military applicants they were expecting.
-SWA lowered their requirements from 1300 to 1000
-UAL expected a LOT more applicants:
-Almost all Asian carriers are hiring DECs because they have to. My buddy was told he qualified for -777 DEC WITHOUT ANY widebody, heavy, or oceanic experience
-Kalitta (747s) just raised their pay 40% and went to Home Basing
-USA 3000 lowered their mins from 5,000 TT to 4,000 TT
-Emirates deleted their max age restriction for applicants, and raised their retirement age to 65.
-JAR (Europe) is examining age 70 and is relaxing their licensing standards
There is a MASSIVE shortage of inexperienced pilots:
-ALL the regional US airlines have drastically lowered their mins, some don't have ANY hourly mins
-Some regionals are hiring guys WITHOUT their Commercial license (I had my ATP, the highest US rating 10 years ago and the Regionals said I was UNQUALIFIED)
-Most regionals are cancelling flights left and right because of a shortage of crews
-Many regionals are increasing pay, paying signing bonuses and even asking their unions for MORE PAY for new hires in a desperate attempt to recruit pilots.
cliff
KLRD
There is a shortage of experienced pilots:
-Delta didn't get anywhere near the number of military applicants they were expecting.
-SWA lowered their requirements from 1300 to 1000
-UAL expected a LOT more applicants:
]...word around the DEN training center (called "TK" by UA peeps) is that there were only 600 apps after the first 3 days - they were expecting 3000+.
-Kalitta (747s) just raised their pay 40% and went to Home Basing
-USA 3000 lowered their mins from 5,000 TT to 4,000 TT
-Emirates deleted their max age restriction for applicants, and raised their retirement age to 65.
-JAR (Europe) is examining age 70 and is relaxing their licensing standards
There is a MASSIVE shortage of inexperienced pilots:
-ALL the regional US airlines have drastically lowered their mins, some don't have ANY hourly mins
-Some regionals are hiring guys WITHOUT their Commercial license (I had my ATP, the highest US rating 10 years ago and the Regionals said I was UNQUALIFIED)
-Most regionals are cancelling flights left and right because of a shortage of crews
-Many regionals are increasing pay, paying signing bonuses and even asking their unions for MORE PAY for new hires in a desperate attempt to recruit pilots.
cliff
KLRD
Yesterday on the 'staff' shuttle, I sat next to a Line Check Airman who flies CRJs.
What he described to me, with no exaggeration, would have been unbelievable, if I had not heard it from him.
Not only is he avoiding any OE/IOE trips with brand-new FOs, he refused to fly over his monthly max, even after the company offered to pay him time and a half, in order to make such flying avoidable.
He claimed that due to some strange 'attitude problems' (?) (my words) among some IP or simulator Check Airmen, most of the pilots who left ACA and went there failed training or checking. And many had about 2,000 hours in the same jet-the CRJ. I have heard other stories, but not first person, about the company's sim. training. Maybe the ACA guys came over before this serious recruiting problem/shortage began? It is possible for a pilot trainee to have an attitude problem or adjustment problems to new, different expectations.
But based upon what he learned, he could not figure out why such a large fraction did not receive better treatment.
I was unable to comprehend why such problems were allowed to exist, unless the people in charge of their training, or budgets, are totally arrogant (which would not surprise me..) or just all "out of their league", maybe both. Maybe the head Training Captain has almost no authority? If not, why is he staying in the job? If he has real authority, why is he allowed to operate such a department? If he can not get a large fraction of new-hires through training, why does the FAA allow their syllabus allowed to remain as it is? These questions are based upon the Check Airman's comments to me. What a nightmare for these eager, naive young aviators. One major problems at this and some airlines appears to be the lack of positive, realistic, progressive training (one large airline made superb, major changes over the years to its A-320 training and is able to get almost all students through the syllabus).
As for training, one of our pilots who was recalled from furlough this winter told me that he was really disappointed with his CRJ training at Chautauqua.
Anyway, the guy on the shuttle claimed that with pay about as bad as that at Mesa, their recruiting and training problems are no surprise to anybody.
As an interesting side-note:
A brand-new FO during IOE said "WHEE!" The Check Airman asked "What?"
The very brand-new pilot, being second-in-command on a jet (which he might immediately operate into ATL, ORD, LGA, JFK, BOS, LAX etc) said that he had never before flown through a cloud!
Some new-hires were sent away, even after doing ok up to that point, because they had no multi-engine rating! Not even with the center-line thrust restriction. He stated that if the FAA has sat in on a certain check ride, the young applicant might have had the center-line restriction, which would have allowed him to continue training.
What he described to me, with no exaggeration, would have been unbelievable, if I had not heard it from him.
Not only is he avoiding any OE/IOE trips with brand-new FOs, he refused to fly over his monthly max, even after the company offered to pay him time and a half, in order to make such flying avoidable.
He claimed that due to some strange 'attitude problems' (?) (my words) among some IP or simulator Check Airmen, most of the pilots who left ACA and went there failed training or checking. And many had about 2,000 hours in the same jet-the CRJ. I have heard other stories, but not first person, about the company's sim. training. Maybe the ACA guys came over before this serious recruiting problem/shortage began? It is possible for a pilot trainee to have an attitude problem or adjustment problems to new, different expectations.
But based upon what he learned, he could not figure out why such a large fraction did not receive better treatment.
I was unable to comprehend why such problems were allowed to exist, unless the people in charge of their training, or budgets, are totally arrogant (which would not surprise me..) or just all "out of their league", maybe both. Maybe the head Training Captain has almost no authority? If not, why is he staying in the job? If he has real authority, why is he allowed to operate such a department? If he can not get a large fraction of new-hires through training, why does the FAA allow their syllabus allowed to remain as it is? These questions are based upon the Check Airman's comments to me. What a nightmare for these eager, naive young aviators. One major problems at this and some airlines appears to be the lack of positive, realistic, progressive training (one large airline made superb, major changes over the years to its A-320 training and is able to get almost all students through the syllabus).
As for training, one of our pilots who was recalled from furlough this winter told me that he was really disappointed with his CRJ training at Chautauqua.
Anyway, the guy on the shuttle claimed that with pay about as bad as that at Mesa, their recruiting and training problems are no surprise to anybody.
As an interesting side-note:
A brand-new FO during IOE said "WHEE!" The Check Airman asked "What?"
The very brand-new pilot, being second-in-command on a jet (which he might immediately operate into ATL, ORD, LGA, JFK, BOS, LAX etc) said that he had never before flown through a cloud!
Some new-hires were sent away, even after doing ok up to that point, because they had no multi-engine rating! Not even with the center-line thrust restriction. He stated that if the FAA has sat in on a certain check ride, the young applicant might have had the center-line restriction, which would have allowed him to continue training.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 26th Jul 2007 at 04:01.
USav8or:
Those were his words, not mine, on the 'staff shuttle' to the airport.
He claimed that if an FAA Check Airman (airline designee?) had been present, that one guy reportedly could have received a 'centerline-thrust' multi-engine, in order to finish training and then earn the true multi-engine.
I've never instructed etc so have no idea what the regs allow, but assumed that his stories were accurate and valid.
Off the topic.
Our Lead Flight Attendant's husband is new at Mesaba. Does anybody in PpruneLand know how long to upgrade at Mesaba if one's total hours are about 600, including some Instructor experience? Total PIC is normally the main limitation.
Those were his words, not mine, on the 'staff shuttle' to the airport.
He claimed that if an FAA Check Airman (airline designee?) had been present, that one guy reportedly could have received a 'centerline-thrust' multi-engine, in order to finish training and then earn the true multi-engine.
I've never instructed etc so have no idea what the regs allow, but assumed that his stories were accurate and valid.
Off the topic.
Our Lead Flight Attendant's husband is new at Mesaba. Does anybody in PpruneLand know how long to upgrade at Mesaba if one's total hours are about 600, including some Instructor experience? Total PIC is normally the main limitation.
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Upgrade time at Mesaba is currently running at approximately three years, and likely to get shorter due to their fleet expansion. By no means the quickest upgrade in the US regionals, but a nice place to work, from what I've heard.
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Pilot Shortage Misnomer !
US Pilot shortage is more hype than fact. We train the highest number of pilots in the shortest period of time and supply them all over the world.
Currently, the mins have dropped to 250hrs at some regionals and it won't be long before the majors will be hiring 500hr guys.
Nevertheless, if push comes to shove , the H1 visa will be used to accomodate foreign pilots, who are currently working as Pt91/135 pilots with thousands of hours of experience.
Currently, the mins have dropped to 250hrs at some regionals and it won't be long before the majors will be hiring 500hr guys.
Nevertheless, if push comes to shove , the H1 visa will be used to accomodate foreign pilots, who are currently working as Pt91/135 pilots with thousands of hours of experience.
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The U.S. has been too slow to raise the age limit to the 65 international standard. This has exaggerated the pilot shortage to a degree that is now a major safety concern.
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Many factors in "USA pilot shortage"...
I had a career with PanAm in USA, hired in 1968, until the 1991 bankruptcy, this with long layoff period 1972-1982, when I was forced to fly overseas, or instructing at the PanAm academy. There is no single factor responsible for the "shortage" of pilots, there are many of them.
xxx
The last posting here mentions age 60 retirement, one of the reasons. This applied to pilots (not flight engineers, who could continue to fly with NO age limit whatsoever). I flew with "old farts" with various foreign air carriers, in my F/O days, and still remember them as the most competent and experienced captains I ever flew with. My recommendation would be to make age retirement function of the issuance of a 1st class medical only, this maybe with the following limitations: only one pilot over age 60 to operate in a cockpit crew, and no transition to other type aircraft after age 60 (as you do not teach "old dogs new tricks").
xxx
The culture of "big airplane, big salary" in the USA. Let me explain... Upgrade to captain and transition to bigger planes is function of seniority with USA air carriers... all ok... but a problem, I saw when I was with PanAm, and with my friends who were with other airlines. An example... a friend with UAL, now retired, who got hired in 1968...
xxx
He trained, in sequence, from F/E 727, to F/E 720, to F/E DC-8, to F/O 727, F/O DC-8, then F/E DC-10, then F/O 727 again, then F/O DC-10, then capt. 737, capt. 727, capt. DC-10, then finally capt. 747... spending some unproductive 36 months in training during his career... besides moving 3 times, suffering 2 divorces, and years of commuting between domicile and bases, spending nights of "reserve" in cheap motels next to noisy airports. Why this... salary structure... besides having higher salary when you upgrade to F/O and captain, the bigger the plane, the more money...
xxx
When I was with PanAm, I lived in the Los Angeles area. I never got based at LAX (my first choice, near home) or SFO (my second choice, easy commute). I was based at JFK or MIA. Do you know where pilots who did bid LAX or SFO lived...? New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusets etc... These gentlemen loved to commute for the extra few dollars to fly bigger airplanes on longer Pacific sectors...
xxx
Another friend, KLM, got hired in 1971, as F/O DC-9, then DC-10 F/O, then DC-10 captain, then retired as MD-11 captain. Compared to my UAL buddy, he probably spent very little unproductive time in training, and certainly was highly experienced with 30 years (20,000 hrs?) on DC-10/MD-11 types... With KLM, the size of plane you fly has very little to do with your salary. Salary increases come with position and longevity based on date of hire...
xxx
Pilot shortage... ok... airlines in USA do not hire "direct entry captains", because of union contracts, except maybe 747 operators like Evergreen or Kalitta... (and these two for what salary?). A PanAm colleague joined Kalitta in 1994, as 747 captain. His first year salary was around $50,000. He retired fairly recently (2003), he never exceeded $85,000 during his Kalitta career.
xxx
No wonder I bailed out of USA in 1992 for the "third world", and happy I did. Here in Argentina, senior pilots love the 737 and MD-80, working 18 days a month, and be home almost every night... They have 30 yrs seniority, and make double salary than myself, 747 pilot, with my 13 yrs. Besides that, I spend 7 to 10 nights away from home each month... on top of being in the office or classrooms on the days I do not fly, to make a little extra money.
xxx
In view of all this, I have no sympathy for USA operators, and certainly not for regionals, who remain to me, glorified "135" commuter carriers. If given to be age 25 again, I could not afford the salaries offered to new hires, especially having disbursed a fortune to get a type rating on a little jet... In the old days, airlines hired F/Os or F/Es with a CPL/IR, which in the late 1960s, was a $5,000 investment...
xxx
Consider a career in hamburger sales, and buy yourself a McDonald franchise, rather than throwing your parent's hard earned money in a CRJ type rating. The only winners are these "airline type rating schools" who must laugh their way to the bank... Let the airlines cancel their flights, short of pilots... and insist they double their wages. In 1968, gasoline was 29 cents a gallon, I filled-up my Corvair with $3.oo, and gave 25 cents tip to the attendant who cleaned my windshield, checked my oil, and verified the tire pressures.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
The last posting here mentions age 60 retirement, one of the reasons. This applied to pilots (not flight engineers, who could continue to fly with NO age limit whatsoever). I flew with "old farts" with various foreign air carriers, in my F/O days, and still remember them as the most competent and experienced captains I ever flew with. My recommendation would be to make age retirement function of the issuance of a 1st class medical only, this maybe with the following limitations: only one pilot over age 60 to operate in a cockpit crew, and no transition to other type aircraft after age 60 (as you do not teach "old dogs new tricks").
xxx
The culture of "big airplane, big salary" in the USA. Let me explain... Upgrade to captain and transition to bigger planes is function of seniority with USA air carriers... all ok... but a problem, I saw when I was with PanAm, and with my friends who were with other airlines. An example... a friend with UAL, now retired, who got hired in 1968...
xxx
He trained, in sequence, from F/E 727, to F/E 720, to F/E DC-8, to F/O 727, F/O DC-8, then F/E DC-10, then F/O 727 again, then F/O DC-10, then capt. 737, capt. 727, capt. DC-10, then finally capt. 747... spending some unproductive 36 months in training during his career... besides moving 3 times, suffering 2 divorces, and years of commuting between domicile and bases, spending nights of "reserve" in cheap motels next to noisy airports. Why this... salary structure... besides having higher salary when you upgrade to F/O and captain, the bigger the plane, the more money...
xxx
When I was with PanAm, I lived in the Los Angeles area. I never got based at LAX (my first choice, near home) or SFO (my second choice, easy commute). I was based at JFK or MIA. Do you know where pilots who did bid LAX or SFO lived...? New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusets etc... These gentlemen loved to commute for the extra few dollars to fly bigger airplanes on longer Pacific sectors...
xxx
Another friend, KLM, got hired in 1971, as F/O DC-9, then DC-10 F/O, then DC-10 captain, then retired as MD-11 captain. Compared to my UAL buddy, he probably spent very little unproductive time in training, and certainly was highly experienced with 30 years (20,000 hrs?) on DC-10/MD-11 types... With KLM, the size of plane you fly has very little to do with your salary. Salary increases come with position and longevity based on date of hire...
xxx
Pilot shortage... ok... airlines in USA do not hire "direct entry captains", because of union contracts, except maybe 747 operators like Evergreen or Kalitta... (and these two for what salary?). A PanAm colleague joined Kalitta in 1994, as 747 captain. His first year salary was around $50,000. He retired fairly recently (2003), he never exceeded $85,000 during his Kalitta career.
xxx
No wonder I bailed out of USA in 1992 for the "third world", and happy I did. Here in Argentina, senior pilots love the 737 and MD-80, working 18 days a month, and be home almost every night... They have 30 yrs seniority, and make double salary than myself, 747 pilot, with my 13 yrs. Besides that, I spend 7 to 10 nights away from home each month... on top of being in the office or classrooms on the days I do not fly, to make a little extra money.
xxx
In view of all this, I have no sympathy for USA operators, and certainly not for regionals, who remain to me, glorified "135" commuter carriers. If given to be age 25 again, I could not afford the salaries offered to new hires, especially having disbursed a fortune to get a type rating on a little jet... In the old days, airlines hired F/Os or F/Es with a CPL/IR, which in the late 1960s, was a $5,000 investment...
xxx
Consider a career in hamburger sales, and buy yourself a McDonald franchise, rather than throwing your parent's hard earned money in a CRJ type rating. The only winners are these "airline type rating schools" who must laugh their way to the bank... Let the airlines cancel their flights, short of pilots... and insist they double their wages. In 1968, gasoline was 29 cents a gallon, I filled-up my Corvair with $3.oo, and gave 25 cents tip to the attendant who cleaned my windshield, checked my oil, and verified the tire pressures.
xxx
Happy contrails
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Very interesting indeed. Certainly has me wondering whether I should even try to stay up here in the US, return back home to the Caribbean, or simply try somewhere else altogether. hmmmmmm
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Young Pilot, you will do much better taking your ratings back to the Caribbean and getting a job, where you will be treated and paid like a professional. Here in the US, it really makes no sence. BelArgUSA has said it all. Pilots seem to come a dime a dozzen here in the USA and they are treated like day labourers. Imagine going for a job interview and being told that congratulations you got the job, now pay us 12000 dollars to put you on the aircraft to fly???? and a lot of the young kids we have these days jump at this. "shiny jet syndrone". why will i want to pay some one to hire be to do a job i trained for with about $50000 should this not be the other way around? Pilots and wannabes are their own worst enemy. if the airlines dont have anyone to fly, believe me they will first review this 1st yr officers slave wage then start paying for your type and better working conditions and all this pilot mills aka aviation academies that milk these souls for $70000 to $95000 for a job that pays you $19000-$23000 your first year????? how do you survive?? the human spirit is so..... and you already have a college degree??
The shortage is all hype, when it really hurts CEOs of Airlines will stop taking $600000 a year and FO $20000 and spread the wealth around and pay professional what they are really worth.
The shortage is all hype, when it really hurts CEOs of Airlines will stop taking $600000 a year and FO $20000 and spread the wealth around and pay professional what they are really worth.
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Sobering $$$ facts -
A few examples -
xxx
In 1969, the first year salary of a F/O or F/E (727-DC9) was some $12,000, and at the time, sharing an apartment was $150/mo. and a dinner was $10... You had invested $5,000 for a CPL/IR... and the second year pay was double, some $25,000. Your per-diem was $24/day. I remember my liability insurance for my little Corvair was $200/year, and I did mention the gasoline at 29 cents a gallon...
xxx
2007... You pay near $3.oo a gallon for gas, and $600+ for liability insurance, and your shared apartment is $500/month in some cities. A breakfast will be $10+ and a dinner will be $20... Yet your salary would be $20,000 a year to be a F/O on CRJ... (and you paid some $60,000+ to get there)... a very poor investment in a career, indeed.
xxx
And you fly a few years for a regional (I repeat, glorified "135" operator) with a DAL or UAL emblem on the tail, but you are not working for these major carriers (yet)... so you have to apply with these Delta or United, the day you have 2 or 3,000 hrs, to hear that after being a new hire again, you will be paid the first year pay, as 737 F/O, at less than $24,000 (again) until you get ALPA wages on the second year.
xxx
Factor-in the possible furloughs, like I had. All it takes, is Osama Bin Laden putting a threat on DisneyWorld destruction by terrorism, and "whop", you and 5,000 of your colleagues will be without work. Try to get a "corporate" pilot job, with 5,000 hrs F/O time, as you are to them, with no experience on a Gulfstream V (that means "5", not "Victor") and no experience in carrying a Gucci pilot bag, and unable to spell Moët & Chandon champagne at the FBO. Airline pilots are not welcome in the corporate world. Maybe you will then find a job as CFI, (and pay near $10,000 to get a CFI certificate)... Of course, you could also drive a Yellow Cab... and fake a Russian or Mexican accent.
xxx
I remember 1997, visiting an old time friend, who just had retired as one of the most senior 747-400 UAL captain... and who was also operator, and "outright owner" (wow) of a fleet of Learjets, a few Gulfstreams and a couple of 727-100s (these operated with VIP interior)... He asked me about Argentina, and my job there, and my wages, and how much I was flying per year... with a smile... Then, I asked him "Tell me, what was your pay with United these last years...?" - "My pay... salary was $238,000/yr..." - (Then I asked how much flying that was per year) - his answer was - "Oh, I flew very little, as I have to care about my FBO and my Bizjets here... I did bid reserve and flew about 100 hrs/yr... just to stay current..." - So in effect, my dear friend was paid $238,000/yr for 100 hrs, or... $2,380 per hr if my advanced mathematics are correct...
xxx
But outside of his luxury FBO, I knew kids with licenses crying for a job at $12/hr as CFI, or $20/hr to raise the gear of a Learjet... At times, I admire and respect Che Guevara...
xxx
Another word about the Kalittas and the Evergreens... Oh, you pilots (say the CEOs), we need to keep pilot wages low, because we are competing against the FedEx and the UPS cargo carriers... OK, fine, until you learn that the Kalittas and the Evergreens sell the ton/kilometers at the same price as the FedEx and UPS they are "competing with"...
xxx
In the 1980s, suffering my PanAm layoff, I flew for ONA/UACI as a 707 then DC8 captain, based in Jeddah, Saudia ACMI, and enjoying the camels and prayer times... and saying "Insh'Allah" for my estimates... Our CEO was the third highest paid airline executive in the USA airline industry, after the AA CEO (C.R. Smith) and DAL (cannot recall his name).
xxx
If you love planes so much, make it like my dentist, he owns a superb SF260 Siai-Marchetti, and enjoys week-ends with his lady-friends at the best resorts in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, or Uruguay. I trade I/R instruction for dental work... and after 100 hrs dual, he stills needs a block of airspace for his ATC assigned levels... I used to own a little Piper L-21C, I had to sell it, could not afford it with my 747 captain salary...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
In 1969, the first year salary of a F/O or F/E (727-DC9) was some $12,000, and at the time, sharing an apartment was $150/mo. and a dinner was $10... You had invested $5,000 for a CPL/IR... and the second year pay was double, some $25,000. Your per-diem was $24/day. I remember my liability insurance for my little Corvair was $200/year, and I did mention the gasoline at 29 cents a gallon...
xxx
2007... You pay near $3.oo a gallon for gas, and $600+ for liability insurance, and your shared apartment is $500/month in some cities. A breakfast will be $10+ and a dinner will be $20... Yet your salary would be $20,000 a year to be a F/O on CRJ... (and you paid some $60,000+ to get there)... a very poor investment in a career, indeed.
xxx
And you fly a few years for a regional (I repeat, glorified "135" operator) with a DAL or UAL emblem on the tail, but you are not working for these major carriers (yet)... so you have to apply with these Delta or United, the day you have 2 or 3,000 hrs, to hear that after being a new hire again, you will be paid the first year pay, as 737 F/O, at less than $24,000 (again) until you get ALPA wages on the second year.
xxx
Factor-in the possible furloughs, like I had. All it takes, is Osama Bin Laden putting a threat on DisneyWorld destruction by terrorism, and "whop", you and 5,000 of your colleagues will be without work. Try to get a "corporate" pilot job, with 5,000 hrs F/O time, as you are to them, with no experience on a Gulfstream V (that means "5", not "Victor") and no experience in carrying a Gucci pilot bag, and unable to spell Moët & Chandon champagne at the FBO. Airline pilots are not welcome in the corporate world. Maybe you will then find a job as CFI, (and pay near $10,000 to get a CFI certificate)... Of course, you could also drive a Yellow Cab... and fake a Russian or Mexican accent.
xxx
I remember 1997, visiting an old time friend, who just had retired as one of the most senior 747-400 UAL captain... and who was also operator, and "outright owner" (wow) of a fleet of Learjets, a few Gulfstreams and a couple of 727-100s (these operated with VIP interior)... He asked me about Argentina, and my job there, and my wages, and how much I was flying per year... with a smile... Then, I asked him "Tell me, what was your pay with United these last years...?" - "My pay... salary was $238,000/yr..." - (Then I asked how much flying that was per year) - his answer was - "Oh, I flew very little, as I have to care about my FBO and my Bizjets here... I did bid reserve and flew about 100 hrs/yr... just to stay current..." - So in effect, my dear friend was paid $238,000/yr for 100 hrs, or... $2,380 per hr if my advanced mathematics are correct...
xxx
But outside of his luxury FBO, I knew kids with licenses crying for a job at $12/hr as CFI, or $20/hr to raise the gear of a Learjet... At times, I admire and respect Che Guevara...
xxx
Another word about the Kalittas and the Evergreens... Oh, you pilots (say the CEOs), we need to keep pilot wages low, because we are competing against the FedEx and the UPS cargo carriers... OK, fine, until you learn that the Kalittas and the Evergreens sell the ton/kilometers at the same price as the FedEx and UPS they are "competing with"...
xxx
In the 1980s, suffering my PanAm layoff, I flew for ONA/UACI as a 707 then DC8 captain, based in Jeddah, Saudia ACMI, and enjoying the camels and prayer times... and saying "Insh'Allah" for my estimates... Our CEO was the third highest paid airline executive in the USA airline industry, after the AA CEO (C.R. Smith) and DAL (cannot recall his name).
xxx
If you love planes so much, make it like my dentist, he owns a superb SF260 Siai-Marchetti, and enjoys week-ends with his lady-friends at the best resorts in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, or Uruguay. I trade I/R instruction for dental work... and after 100 hrs dual, he stills needs a block of airspace for his ATC assigned levels... I used to own a little Piper L-21C, I had to sell it, could not afford it with my 747 captain salary...
xxx
Happy contrails
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Sobering $$$$
I will say that this is one of the most informative threads for young(er) pilots to think about for their future careers.
I myself had 18 years in the US with USAirways. Did the flight instructor thing before getting the chance to fly sched 135 before that.
Then came 911, and the first bankruptcy. The second shoe fell when the second bankruptcy was imminent, and the salery which up till then was fairly good was again lowered.
I lost my seat in the airplane I was flying twice, before saying that enough was enough.
The loss of the pension that had been hard fought over many years and contracts was also gone like the wind. If I had stayed like most of my new hire class, I would be looking at still being in the right seat of a 320/737 with now going on 22 years with the company.
Now I have to fly for a company I had not even heard of till they started buying airplanes with all of the oil money the country has.
And this place is 6500nm from home.
Got to admit it though, I have become very comfortable here and in no way will I return to the "Good ole USA" for a job in anytime in the future.
I truely see no future for the airline industry with pay that is now so prevelent. How can the new pilot justify paying for the ratings that are required just to get that first job. And then fly till he drops from fatigue.
I have no idea why anyone would still want to be an "airline" pilot when you could do as BelarqUSA says and get a job that pays something decent and buy your own airplane. Your still in Aviation, but on your terms and not some cutthroat scumbags.
I had all of the gold stars in my eyes growing up and wanted to see the world.
I still am, but now from the Mid-east and not from home. And 95% of the guy's and now girls here, are also in the same boat.
For every story about the guy that is a wide body captain by the time he was 35, there are twice as many more that are not there. (maybe even more)
Use the brain in your head and make a life for yourself that does not include airline flying for a living.
My 2 cent worth
I myself had 18 years in the US with USAirways. Did the flight instructor thing before getting the chance to fly sched 135 before that.
Then came 911, and the first bankruptcy. The second shoe fell when the second bankruptcy was imminent, and the salery which up till then was fairly good was again lowered.
I lost my seat in the airplane I was flying twice, before saying that enough was enough.
The loss of the pension that had been hard fought over many years and contracts was also gone like the wind. If I had stayed like most of my new hire class, I would be looking at still being in the right seat of a 320/737 with now going on 22 years with the company.
Now I have to fly for a company I had not even heard of till they started buying airplanes with all of the oil money the country has.
And this place is 6500nm from home.
Got to admit it though, I have become very comfortable here and in no way will I return to the "Good ole USA" for a job in anytime in the future.
I truely see no future for the airline industry with pay that is now so prevelent. How can the new pilot justify paying for the ratings that are required just to get that first job. And then fly till he drops from fatigue.
I have no idea why anyone would still want to be an "airline" pilot when you could do as BelarqUSA says and get a job that pays something decent and buy your own airplane. Your still in Aviation, but on your terms and not some cutthroat scumbags.
I had all of the gold stars in my eyes growing up and wanted to see the world.
I still am, but now from the Mid-east and not from home. And 95% of the guy's and now girls here, are also in the same boat.
For every story about the guy that is a wide body captain by the time he was 35, there are twice as many more that are not there. (maybe even more)
Use the brain in your head and make a life for yourself that does not include airline flying for a living.
My 2 cent worth
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I think what we're dealing with here is not a "shortage" as such, but something much more fundamental. The profession has been beaten down so much that it's simply no longer attractive. The experienced people who've been trough 2-3 (4, 5, 6?) furloughs are pretty well fed up and no longer want any part of this business, while young people who would be making up the future of the trade are finding much more attractive options in any number of fields. Just in the area I live in, our local airport went from 7 FBOs to only one, while a very well-known school at another nearby field closed down this past March after dropping down to only 10 (!) students.
So, what does all this mean? It seems to me airlines (and not just them) will in a few years find themselves in a real bind. The experienced people still won't be coming back, and there simply won't be any new people, if flight school enrollment continues to decline the way it has been.
At that point, my hope is the good old law of supply and demand will finally kick in and we'll finally start seeing a climb in flight crew pay and benefits.
I could be wrong.
So, what does all this mean? It seems to me airlines (and not just them) will in a few years find themselves in a real bind. The experienced people still won't be coming back, and there simply won't be any new people, if flight school enrollment continues to decline the way it has been.
At that point, my hope is the good old law of supply and demand will finally kick in and we'll finally start seeing a climb in flight crew pay and benefits.
I could be wrong.
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You won't be seeing any increase in flight crew pay and benefits; rather just the opposite. The top pay is only at FedEx and at UPS; pilots at the rest of the "legacy" carriers are getting squeezed not only on pay, but on benefits, including pensions. Relentless downward pressure on wages and benefits; and a squeeze for ever more flight and duty times has become practical reality. At slave driving outfits like Ryan Air, crews actually have to pay for coffee. Imagine that! Pilots have become like "blue collar" workers; bus/truck drivers with wings. In fact, many long haul truck drivers make more money than copilots at low cost carriers.
And there is no real shortage of pilots, only a shortage of very experienced, high time pilots.
And there is no real shortage of pilots, only a shortage of very experienced, high time pilots.
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Baba70, I really appreciate the reply. It's just so confusing when you have your fellow brothers telling you to stay in the US, but others like you are saying it's best to return to the region
. I guess if the most I can do is remain up here for an extra yr after next May to flight instruct (visa restrictions/opt), I might as well not push for anything else.
Cheers
. I guess if the most I can do is remain up here for an extra yr after next May to flight instruct (visa restrictions/opt), I might as well not push for anything else.Cheers
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From the best market to the worst.
With Jobs Scarce, U.S. Pilots
>Sign On At Foreign Airlines
>
>
>By Susan Carey and Bruce Stanley
>
>From The Wall Street Journal Online
>
>Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement
>from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination
>of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier
>sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time.
>
>But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives
>in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates
>Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia.
>He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total
>compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance,
>retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and
>children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a
>professional standpoint, it couldn't be better."
>
>In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is
>fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far
>reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001
>terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into
>its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid
>off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring
>by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands
>haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.
>
>At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India,
>Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more
>affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has
>soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding
>routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order.
>
>So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their
>trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills
>offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving
>families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up
>union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to
>seniority.
>
>U.S. pilots are working as far afield as Bolivia, China, Qatar and
>Vietnam. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways and Singapore
>Airlines are hiring more Americans, as are carriers in Taiwan and
>South Korea, and increasingly, in India.
>
>The diaspora is one symptom of a growing global shortage of
>well-trained commercial pilots. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates
>the global jet fleet will grow to more than 35,000 airplanes in
>2024, from fewer than 17,000 in 2004. Boeing pegs demand for new
>pilots at nearly 18,000 a year through 2024. China alone will need
>more than 35,000 new pilots over 20 years, and the rest of Asia will
>need 56,500, the company estimates. Many countries are currently
>unable to train enough pilots at home.
>
>The result: a global bazaar where experienced pilots go to the
>highest bidder. Norwegians and Venezuelans are flying in China,
>Egyptians and Russians in India, Jamaicans and Iranians for a
>Japanese carrier. Four out of five pilots at Qatar Airways are
>foreign. More than 70 Philippine Airlines pilots have quit since
>2003 for better-paying jobs elsewhere. Etihad Airways, a new airline
>based in Abu Dhabi, says its No. 1 source of pilots is Malaysia.
>India's fleet of startup carriers was so plagued by pilot poaching
>that the government last year began requiring pilots to serve at
>least six months at one carrier before moving on.
>
>G.R. Gopinath, managing director for Air Deccan, a two-year-old
>budget airline in India, says he has been recruiting a dozen pilots
>a month from overseas. "If Indian software engineers can work in the
>U.S., their pilots can come and work here," he says. "It's reverse
>body-shopping." Pilot job fairs in the U.S. have begun attracting
>recruiters for Chinese and Indian startups, according to Kit Darby,
>president of Air Inc., a placement firm.
>
>The hiring frenzy has led to some safety concerns. English is the
>industry's world-wide language. Putting two pilots with different
>native languages in the same cockpit, where they might have to
>interact with an air-traffic controller whose native tongue is
>different still, can lead to problems, especially in emergencies,
>contends Dennis Dolan, a retired Delta Air Lines captain and
>president of the U.K.-based International Federation of Air Line
>Pilots' Associations, which represents pilot unions and associations
>in 95 countries.
>
>The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the
>United Nations, intends in 2008 to begin English-proficiency testing
>of pilots and air-traffic controllers who handle international
>flights. India proposed that measure after a 1996 accident in which
>the flight crew of a Kazakh Airways jet misunderstood an Indian
>controller's instructions, leading to a midair collision with a
>Saudi Arabian Airlines plane near New Delhi. India also cited the
>1995 crash of an American Airlines jet near Cali, Colombia, in which
>miscommunication between a Colombian controller and a U.S. crew was
>a contributing factor.
>
>Jim Burin, director of technical programs for the Alexandria,
>Va.-based Flight Safety Foundation, an international nonprofit
>group, points to another safety concern. "In some cultures, it's not
>the place of the second-in-command to question the
>first-in-command," he says. That could interfere with the co-pilot's
>role as a check on the captain, who commands the flight.
>
>One pilot who moved from a U.S. airline to a national carrier in
>Southeast Asia says that informational updates on safety at his new
>employer arrive late or not at all, and that little attention is
>paid to punctuality or how many hours pilots work. "Training for the
>most part is far from the quality I was used to in the U.S.," says
>the 55-year-old captain, who asked not to be identified for fear of
>angering his employer. He adds that he likes the lifestyle and finds
>the job "relatively easy."
>
>Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high
>at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent
>English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of
>the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star
>hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice
>presidents of the organization."
>
>Some out-of-work U.S. pilots balk at going overseas for family
>reasons. Some hope to be recalled by U.S. carriers and don't want to
>give up their seniority rights. Duane Woerth, president of the Air
>Line Pilots Association, a U.S. union, says foreign carriers are
>interested in senior pilots, not junior ones. He worries about the
>"brain drain" and whether foreign carriers are using U.S. pilots
>only temporarily until they can staff up with their own citizens.
>But "our guys are warming up to it," he says. "This one looks like a
>permanent structural shift."
>
>Andrew Baedke, who was furloughed by Northwest Airlines after Sept.
>11, has worked for the past three years as a Honolulu-based 747
>first officer, or co-pilot, for Jalways, a subsidiary of Japan
>Airlines. "A lot of my [laid-off] friends are sitting at home or
>working for Home Depot," says Mr. Baedke, who is 36 years old. "I'm
>glad to have this job. It's extremely stable."
>
>One reason for the pilot shortage is that developing nations aren't
>training enough of them at home. There are not enough flight schools
>in the world to meet demand, says Brent Mills, the chief executive
>officer of Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, a flight
>academy in Tulsa, Okla., that plans to open schools in India with a
>local partner in the next year. It takes many years for a college
>graduate to accumulate sufficient flight training and commercial
>flying hours to climb the professional ladder from novice to first
>officer to captain.
>
>Some nations, such as Japan and Ethiopia, have raised the mandatory
>retirement age for commercial pilots to alleviate the shortage.
>ICAO, the U.N. agency, will recommend later this year that the age
>be raised to 65 from 60, although member nations will not be
>required to do so.
>
>The Chinese government runs a school in Sichuan province that
>graduated 307 novice pilots last year. China Southern Airlines, the
>nation's largest carrier by fleet size, has its own school in
>Australia. In 2004, four Chinese investors opened Beijing PanAm
>International Aviation Academy, which 240 students now attend.
>
>Nevertheless, Gao Hongfeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation
>Administration of China, says there are almost enough native pilots
>to staff the new airplanes China has on order, but it will be
>difficult for the nation to train enough "mature captains" quickly.
>
>Chinese airlines are filling in with expatriates. Tim Shattock,
>chief executive of Parc Aviation Ltd., a Dublin firm that leases
>pilots to airlines, says "our intelligence says there are 120 to 150
>foreign pilots in mainland China."
>
>India counts more. Deregulation has spawned startup airlines, an
>influx of international flights, and 20% annual passenger growth.
>India expects to need 2,500 new pilots by 2010. At Jet Airways, the
>nation's largest private carrier, 111 of its 685 pilots are foreign.
>Air Deccan has 75 foreigners among its 250 pilots, and is setting up
>its own flight school in Bangalore.
>
>Compensation for the foreign gigs varies widely. But it is often
>better than what U.S. pilots can earn at home, where pay levels and
>benefits have been reduced by bankruptcy filings and restructurings.
>Richard Paul, an 18-year US Airways veteran who was bumped from
>captain to first officer during one round of layoffs, says he plans
>to quit soon and report for training to fly cargo at a large Asian
>carrier he declines to identify. The 46-year-old pilot says he will
>start as a first officer, but "in four or five years, I'll probably
>be a captain on a 747 and make twice as much" as the $72,000 a year
>he currently earns.
>
>India's Air Deccan is offering $8,000 to $15,000 a month to foreign
>captains, according to Mr. Gopinath, the managing director. A
>captain in the U.S. on Northwest's smallest jet earns about $9,000 a
>month, while a captain on United Airlines's largest plane earns
>about $15,000, according to a recent survey by Air Inc.
>
>American Craig Harnden, formerly a pilot for now-defunct Eastern
>Airlines, has worked overseas since 1990 for Saudi Arabian Airlines,
>Thai Airways International and now Singapore Airlines. "If I had
>known what I know now, I would probably have left Eastern and gone
>overseas a lot earlier," says the 59-year-old Miami native, who
>lives in Singapore. "But we didn't leave the airlines because of the
>seniority system."
>
>William Goodwin left the U.S. in 1994 after working for two airlines
>that went under and a third that was acquired. He says he nearly
>doubled his pay by moving to Taiwan to captain 767s for Taipei-based
>EVA Air. "It was the smartest thing I've ever done," he says. He
>jumped to Korean Air in 2000, where as a captain of 747s he earns
>$152,000 a year after Korean taxes. The 54-year-old pilot says he
>hopes to stay until he retires at 60.
>
>Mr. Baedke, the former Northwest pilot who now flies out of Honolulu
>for Jalways under a crew-leasing contract, says he's trying to
>spread the word to other American pilots. Many of his pilot friends,
>he says, were laid off after 9/11 and have not yet been called back.
>
>As a first officer, Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last
>year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a
>process he says could take 2.5 years. If he succeeds, his pay will
>climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and
>$180 an hour for anything exceeding that.
>
>He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if
>I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary]
>as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no
>point."
>Sign On At Foreign Airlines
>
>
>By Susan Carey and Bruce Stanley
>
>From The Wall Street Journal Online
>
>Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement
>from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination
>of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier
>sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time.
>
>But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives
>in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates
>Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia.
>He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total
>compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance,
>retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and
>children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a
>professional standpoint, it couldn't be better."
>
>In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is
>fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far
>reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001
>terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into
>its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid
>off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring
>by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands
>haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.
>
>At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India,
>Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more
>affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has
>soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding
>routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order.
>
>So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their
>trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills
>offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving
>families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up
>union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to
>seniority.
>
>U.S. pilots are working as far afield as Bolivia, China, Qatar and
>Vietnam. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways and Singapore
>Airlines are hiring more Americans, as are carriers in Taiwan and
>South Korea, and increasingly, in India.
>
>The diaspora is one symptom of a growing global shortage of
>well-trained commercial pilots. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates
>the global jet fleet will grow to more than 35,000 airplanes in
>2024, from fewer than 17,000 in 2004. Boeing pegs demand for new
>pilots at nearly 18,000 a year through 2024. China alone will need
>more than 35,000 new pilots over 20 years, and the rest of Asia will
>need 56,500, the company estimates. Many countries are currently
>unable to train enough pilots at home.
>
>The result: a global bazaar where experienced pilots go to the
>highest bidder. Norwegians and Venezuelans are flying in China,
>Egyptians and Russians in India, Jamaicans and Iranians for a
>Japanese carrier. Four out of five pilots at Qatar Airways are
>foreign. More than 70 Philippine Airlines pilots have quit since
>2003 for better-paying jobs elsewhere. Etihad Airways, a new airline
>based in Abu Dhabi, says its No. 1 source of pilots is Malaysia.
>India's fleet of startup carriers was so plagued by pilot poaching
>that the government last year began requiring pilots to serve at
>least six months at one carrier before moving on.
>
>G.R. Gopinath, managing director for Air Deccan, a two-year-old
>budget airline in India, says he has been recruiting a dozen pilots
>a month from overseas. "If Indian software engineers can work in the
>U.S., their pilots can come and work here," he says. "It's reverse
>body-shopping." Pilot job fairs in the U.S. have begun attracting
>recruiters for Chinese and Indian startups, according to Kit Darby,
>president of Air Inc., a placement firm.
>
>The hiring frenzy has led to some safety concerns. English is the
>industry's world-wide language. Putting two pilots with different
>native languages in the same cockpit, where they might have to
>interact with an air-traffic controller whose native tongue is
>different still, can lead to problems, especially in emergencies,
>contends Dennis Dolan, a retired Delta Air Lines captain and
>president of the U.K.-based International Federation of Air Line
>Pilots' Associations, which represents pilot unions and associations
>in 95 countries.
>
>The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the
>United Nations, intends in 2008 to begin English-proficiency testing
>of pilots and air-traffic controllers who handle international
>flights. India proposed that measure after a 1996 accident in which
>the flight crew of a Kazakh Airways jet misunderstood an Indian
>controller's instructions, leading to a midair collision with a
>Saudi Arabian Airlines plane near New Delhi. India also cited the
>1995 crash of an American Airlines jet near Cali, Colombia, in which
>miscommunication between a Colombian controller and a U.S. crew was
>a contributing factor.
>
>Jim Burin, director of technical programs for the Alexandria,
>Va.-based Flight Safety Foundation, an international nonprofit
>group, points to another safety concern. "In some cultures, it's not
>the place of the second-in-command to question the
>first-in-command," he says. That could interfere with the co-pilot's
>role as a check on the captain, who commands the flight.
>
>One pilot who moved from a U.S. airline to a national carrier in
>Southeast Asia says that informational updates on safety at his new
>employer arrive late or not at all, and that little attention is
>paid to punctuality or how many hours pilots work. "Training for the
>most part is far from the quality I was used to in the U.S.," says
>the 55-year-old captain, who asked not to be identified for fear of
>angering his employer. He adds that he likes the lifestyle and finds
>the job "relatively easy."
>
>Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high
>at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent
>English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of
>the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star
>hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice
>presidents of the organization."
>
>Some out-of-work U.S. pilots balk at going overseas for family
>reasons. Some hope to be recalled by U.S. carriers and don't want to
>give up their seniority rights. Duane Woerth, president of the Air
>Line Pilots Association, a U.S. union, says foreign carriers are
>interested in senior pilots, not junior ones. He worries about the
>"brain drain" and whether foreign carriers are using U.S. pilots
>only temporarily until they can staff up with their own citizens.
>But "our guys are warming up to it," he says. "This one looks like a
>permanent structural shift."
>
>Andrew Baedke, who was furloughed by Northwest Airlines after Sept.
>11, has worked for the past three years as a Honolulu-based 747
>first officer, or co-pilot, for Jalways, a subsidiary of Japan
>Airlines. "A lot of my [laid-off] friends are sitting at home or
>working for Home Depot," says Mr. Baedke, who is 36 years old. "I'm
>glad to have this job. It's extremely stable."
>
>One reason for the pilot shortage is that developing nations aren't
>training enough of them at home. There are not enough flight schools
>in the world to meet demand, says Brent Mills, the chief executive
>officer of Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, a flight
>academy in Tulsa, Okla., that plans to open schools in India with a
>local partner in the next year. It takes many years for a college
>graduate to accumulate sufficient flight training and commercial
>flying hours to climb the professional ladder from novice to first
>officer to captain.
>
>Some nations, such as Japan and Ethiopia, have raised the mandatory
>retirement age for commercial pilots to alleviate the shortage.
>ICAO, the U.N. agency, will recommend later this year that the age
>be raised to 65 from 60, although member nations will not be
>required to do so.
>
>The Chinese government runs a school in Sichuan province that
>graduated 307 novice pilots last year. China Southern Airlines, the
>nation's largest carrier by fleet size, has its own school in
>Australia. In 2004, four Chinese investors opened Beijing PanAm
>International Aviation Academy, which 240 students now attend.
>
>Nevertheless, Gao Hongfeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation
>Administration of China, says there are almost enough native pilots
>to staff the new airplanes China has on order, but it will be
>difficult for the nation to train enough "mature captains" quickly.
>
>Chinese airlines are filling in with expatriates. Tim Shattock,
>chief executive of Parc Aviation Ltd., a Dublin firm that leases
>pilots to airlines, says "our intelligence says there are 120 to 150
>foreign pilots in mainland China."
>
>India counts more. Deregulation has spawned startup airlines, an
>influx of international flights, and 20% annual passenger growth.
>India expects to need 2,500 new pilots by 2010. At Jet Airways, the
>nation's largest private carrier, 111 of its 685 pilots are foreign.
>Air Deccan has 75 foreigners among its 250 pilots, and is setting up
>its own flight school in Bangalore.
>
>Compensation for the foreign gigs varies widely. But it is often
>better than what U.S. pilots can earn at home, where pay levels and
>benefits have been reduced by bankruptcy filings and restructurings.
>Richard Paul, an 18-year US Airways veteran who was bumped from
>captain to first officer during one round of layoffs, says he plans
>to quit soon and report for training to fly cargo at a large Asian
>carrier he declines to identify. The 46-year-old pilot says he will
>start as a first officer, but "in four or five years, I'll probably
>be a captain on a 747 and make twice as much" as the $72,000 a year
>he currently earns.
>
>India's Air Deccan is offering $8,000 to $15,000 a month to foreign
>captains, according to Mr. Gopinath, the managing director. A
>captain in the U.S. on Northwest's smallest jet earns about $9,000 a
>month, while a captain on United Airlines's largest plane earns
>about $15,000, according to a recent survey by Air Inc.
>
>American Craig Harnden, formerly a pilot for now-defunct Eastern
>Airlines, has worked overseas since 1990 for Saudi Arabian Airlines,
>Thai Airways International and now Singapore Airlines. "If I had
>known what I know now, I would probably have left Eastern and gone
>overseas a lot earlier," says the 59-year-old Miami native, who
>lives in Singapore. "But we didn't leave the airlines because of the
>seniority system."
>
>William Goodwin left the U.S. in 1994 after working for two airlines
>that went under and a third that was acquired. He says he nearly
>doubled his pay by moving to Taiwan to captain 767s for Taipei-based
>EVA Air. "It was the smartest thing I've ever done," he says. He
>jumped to Korean Air in 2000, where as a captain of 747s he earns
>$152,000 a year after Korean taxes. The 54-year-old pilot says he
>hopes to stay until he retires at 60.
>
>Mr. Baedke, the former Northwest pilot who now flies out of Honolulu
>for Jalways under a crew-leasing contract, says he's trying to
>spread the word to other American pilots. Many of his pilot friends,
>he says, were laid off after 9/11 and have not yet been called back.
>
>As a first officer, Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last
>year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a
>process he says could take 2.5 years. If he succeeds, his pay will
>climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and
>$180 an hour for anything exceeding that.
>
>He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if
>I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary]
>as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no
>point."
