USA Pilot Shortage
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ummm, reminds me something about a story where a UAL captain told his F/O during the initial approach (visual) to hand fly the airplane and the F/O refused to. Don't remember any other details tho.
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'AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO FLY ONCE WITHOUT EXPLAINING OR TEACHING A STUDENT PILOT AND MAKING PEANUTS!!!!!"
Well thankfully some one hung around and taught your ungratefull behind
how to fly and this is how you pay back the industry!! if i remember correctly you were a student pilot not too long ago, now because you have a paltry 800hrs you are the (edited for language) I will not want you in a cock pit with me with this kind of attitude
Well thankfully some one hung around and taught your ungratefull behind
how to fly and this is how you pay back the industry!! if i remember correctly you were a student pilot not too long ago, now because you have a paltry 800hrs you are the (edited for language) I will not want you in a cock pit with me with this kind of attitude
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742 probably has the most valid criticism of the pilot training situation in the U.S. that I've seen here. That said, the implication that U.S. pilots aren't as willing to work and learn as our European ab-initio bretheren is a bit harsh. There are a substantial number of trainees who believe they are far more qualified than they actually are, but most of them receive a reality check when they hit the line. Most low-time U.S. airline pilots are acutely aware of how much we have to learn, and of the incredible responsibility we have flying passengers. I feel that the key difference here is exactly what is expected of low time pilots here versus in Europe. Graduates of ab-initio programs in Europe are usually very technically qualified (if not yet in posession of flawless stick-and-rudder skills), and they are not expected to perform to the same standard as a fully qualified and experienced FO. They are properly trained, they are supported, and they are compensated. In America, low-time regional FOs receive the same standard training as everyone else, and we are expected to perform to the same standard as everyone else on the line at whatever regional we find ourselves in. In most cases, we are working harder for far less money than more experienced FOs at the major airlines. If that's not a recipe for a young pilot with a bad attitude, I don't know what is.
It's no secret that the life of a U.S. regional pilot is hard. If there are attitude problems (and there are), I would sooner blame the environment in which we train and work than accuse pilots of an unfounded sense of entitlement. I'm not entirely happy with the training new pilots receive in the transition from general aviation to the airlines, but most of us simply work that much harder in order to catch up. The alternative is to abandon the notion of an airline career, which is something I'm not willing to do at this point.
It's no secret that the life of a U.S. regional pilot is hard. If there are attitude problems (and there are), I would sooner blame the environment in which we train and work than accuse pilots of an unfounded sense of entitlement. I'm not entirely happy with the training new pilots receive in the transition from general aviation to the airlines, but most of us simply work that much harder in order to catch up. The alternative is to abandon the notion of an airline career, which is something I'm not willing to do at this point.
ThePotato232: Well-put.
One benefit which many airline pilots had in the late 60s and 70s was the fact that many were hired, whether with a GA background, or from a T-38, C-123 etc, into a transport aircraft which had either reciprocating or turboprop engines. All pilots in this group flew around at lower altitudes and mostly in lower-performance airliners, no matter what their background.
A very large number were hired as FO on the F-27/227, the Convair
600/640/580 or the Martin-404. Some of these were not very high performance. I've jumpseated in a few of them. Anyway, they flew into many small airports with no control tower, and into some busy larger airports, such
as Las Vegas, Atlanta, Minneapolis and Chicago, to name a few, and in quickly changing weather.
Their companies then received either DC-9s or 737s, allowing them at a fairly young age to then quite often fly longer legs into LAX, SEA, ORD, MSP, LGA etc. Many of these became familiar with all-weather airline ops years before they first streaked in their first jet past the airport at 250 knots, wondering when to slow down. They learned quickly whether there was a tight 'coffin corner' at high altitude, or not (i.e. DC-9), and after a while, whether staggering to the highest possible altitude at climb power on a hot day (the same altitudes as the turbulence in storm overhangs/'blow-off') saved much fuel in a heavily-loaded plane after an interesting reduced-flap takeoff while wallowing into the air with EGTs near the top of the yellow arc (over 500*C.).
As for the pay, there is probably less purchasing power now, factoring inflation into it, on a CRJ FO's $1600/ month salary, than with first year pay in the right seat of a DC-9 or B-737 in 1985 (i.e. $1400/month, before taxes).
But this was only the bad first year pay. It increased, by contract, a good bit in the second, then third years etc.
Sadly, the new DC-9 or 737 is a CRJ or EMB-170. I doubt that the purchasing power of an FO's salary on the CRJ, even in the EMB-170's FO seat would ever begin to equate to what his predecessors' FO pay produced from about '85-2003.
And these jets' salaries have mostly replaced the much higher purchasing power (inflation included) which historically was fairly common, for flying aircraft on the exact same city pairs. Most of these city pairs, whether DTW-ATL, ATL-VPS, ORD-MBS, MSP-FAR, MEM-PHL, DFW-SHV, HOU-BTR, were all connected non-stop for many years by either a DC-9 dash 10, a 30, a B-737 200 or a Fokker 100 etc. Many younger pilots are not aware of what went before them. Upper Mgmts have often exploited this lack of awareness, in so many ways.
The promises of the fairly typical airline executives, that "for less money on your first jet, you can upgrade to jet Captain much sooner", will continue to depress, and even lower the buying power of the younger pilots' salaries. It is a very unfortunate trend. Far fewer major airline jobs are now available, and almost all of the best US jobs regarding salaries etc lure pilots to fly cargo, instead of passengers. Some are now told during the interview at a start-up carrier, they will earn about $99/hour on the EMB-170 etc. But they have no written contract (and worse, no union-yet).
One guy told me that he is considering giving up years on the CRJ to join such an outfit with no seniority, all on corporate promises. It depresses me to think about the bait and switch tactics so common in this industry, designed to lure pilots into an operation which will make dire threats as their careers become so abused that they desperately need a union, while fearing, as a result, the transfer of their planes to another carrier under the same codeshare, whether at Mesa, Mesaba, etc.
The pervasive corruption, "alleged"
insider-trading, total lack of integrity and half-truths and lies in this business never stop. Some companies' typical operating style is to break any and all promises, whether day-off guarantees, contract rest/duty rules (with the FAA's collaboration) and numerous basic FARs, or any combination of the above. One former airline stock-owner reportedly has a ship in the Med. which is at least 400 feet long. He and his partner tried to secretly sell off one of the lucrative Pacific routes and pocket the cash in the 90s, as that US airline struggled with an enormous debt load, due to the type of financing used to purchase the airline.
To quote one of our 64 year-old ROPEs ('retired old pilot FE', who is a former Eastern pilot) with whom I chatted last week,"There will never be a shortage of scumbag executives to work in this industry."
The best of luck out there to all you young pilots.
One benefit which many airline pilots had in the late 60s and 70s was the fact that many were hired, whether with a GA background, or from a T-38, C-123 etc, into a transport aircraft which had either reciprocating or turboprop engines. All pilots in this group flew around at lower altitudes and mostly in lower-performance airliners, no matter what their background.
A very large number were hired as FO on the F-27/227, the Convair
600/640/580 or the Martin-404. Some of these were not very high performance. I've jumpseated in a few of them. Anyway, they flew into many small airports with no control tower, and into some busy larger airports, such
as Las Vegas, Atlanta, Minneapolis and Chicago, to name a few, and in quickly changing weather.
Their companies then received either DC-9s or 737s, allowing them at a fairly young age to then quite often fly longer legs into LAX, SEA, ORD, MSP, LGA etc. Many of these became familiar with all-weather airline ops years before they first streaked in their first jet past the airport at 250 knots, wondering when to slow down. They learned quickly whether there was a tight 'coffin corner' at high altitude, or not (i.e. DC-9), and after a while, whether staggering to the highest possible altitude at climb power on a hot day (the same altitudes as the turbulence in storm overhangs/'blow-off') saved much fuel in a heavily-loaded plane after an interesting reduced-flap takeoff while wallowing into the air with EGTs near the top of the yellow arc (over 500*C.).
As for the pay, there is probably less purchasing power now, factoring inflation into it, on a CRJ FO's $1600/ month salary, than with first year pay in the right seat of a DC-9 or B-737 in 1985 (i.e. $1400/month, before taxes).
But this was only the bad first year pay. It increased, by contract, a good bit in the second, then third years etc. Sadly, the new DC-9 or 737 is a CRJ or EMB-170. I doubt that the purchasing power of an FO's salary on the CRJ, even in the EMB-170's FO seat would ever begin to equate to what his predecessors' FO pay produced from about '85-2003.
And these jets' salaries have mostly replaced the much higher purchasing power (inflation included) which historically was fairly common, for flying aircraft on the exact same city pairs. Most of these city pairs, whether DTW-ATL, ATL-VPS, ORD-MBS, MSP-FAR, MEM-PHL, DFW-SHV, HOU-BTR, were all connected non-stop for many years by either a DC-9 dash 10, a 30, a B-737 200 or a Fokker 100 etc. Many younger pilots are not aware of what went before them. Upper Mgmts have often exploited this lack of awareness, in so many ways.
The promises of the fairly typical airline executives, that "for less money on your first jet, you can upgrade to jet Captain much sooner", will continue to depress, and even lower the buying power of the younger pilots' salaries. It is a very unfortunate trend. Far fewer major airline jobs are now available, and almost all of the best US jobs regarding salaries etc lure pilots to fly cargo, instead of passengers. Some are now told during the interview at a start-up carrier, they will earn about $99/hour on the EMB-170 etc. But they have no written contract (and worse, no union-yet).
One guy told me that he is considering giving up years on the CRJ to join such an outfit with no seniority, all on corporate promises. It depresses me to think about the bait and switch tactics so common in this industry, designed to lure pilots into an operation which will make dire threats as their careers become so abused that they desperately need a union, while fearing, as a result, the transfer of their planes to another carrier under the same codeshare, whether at Mesa, Mesaba, etc.
The pervasive corruption, "alleged"
insider-trading, total lack of integrity and half-truths and lies in this business never stop. Some companies' typical operating style is to break any and all promises, whether day-off guarantees, contract rest/duty rules (with the FAA's collaboration) and numerous basic FARs, or any combination of the above. One former airline stock-owner reportedly has a ship in the Med. which is at least 400 feet long. He and his partner tried to secretly sell off one of the lucrative Pacific routes and pocket the cash in the 90s, as that US airline struggled with an enormous debt load, due to the type of financing used to purchase the airline.To quote one of our 64 year-old ROPEs ('retired old pilot FE', who is a former Eastern pilot) with whom I chatted last week,"There will never be a shortage of scumbag executives to work in this industry."
The best of luck out there to all you young pilots.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 24th Jun 2007 at 03:17.
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Pilot shortage?
Is there really a pilot shortage in the horizon?
A better question should be: are there going to be enough experienced pilots in the airlines’ future?
Not an easy answer. As far as the legacy airlines is concerned, I don’t think a pilot shortage is a problem in the short and mid terms. There are plenty of regional airline pilots keeping the supply side of the equation in favor of the legacies.
The regional airlines, on the other hand, are beginning to experience problems attracting experienced pilots. Notice I’m using the term "experienced" and not the term "qualified." Why? Because a pilot who completes training and passes the company’s check ride is a qualified pilot (at least in the eyes of the FAA). However, passing a check ride only indicates that a pilot meets the minimum requirements to operate the aircraft.
Here is where the regional airlines are facing problems. Pay and quality of life are so poor at the regionals that they are not able to attract experienced pilots. Those aviators with considerable flight time are staying put at corporate, fractional, and FAR 135 operators because the regionals just don’t offer a viable alternative.
So what’s left for the regionals? Well, we are seeing it now; the 600 hr. pilot who may be able to become qualified by completing the airline’s flight training but lacks real world experience; the kind of experience only acquired by "doing it."
I don’t think we will see a shortage of pilots per se, instead, we’ll continue to see a shortage of experienced pilots. A sign of the times.
P
Is there really a pilot shortage in the horizon?
A better question should be: are there going to be enough experienced pilots in the airlines’ future?
Not an easy answer. As far as the legacy airlines is concerned, I don’t think a pilot shortage is a problem in the short and mid terms. There are plenty of regional airline pilots keeping the supply side of the equation in favor of the legacies.
The regional airlines, on the other hand, are beginning to experience problems attracting experienced pilots. Notice I’m using the term "experienced" and not the term "qualified." Why? Because a pilot who completes training and passes the company’s check ride is a qualified pilot (at least in the eyes of the FAA). However, passing a check ride only indicates that a pilot meets the minimum requirements to operate the aircraft.
Here is where the regional airlines are facing problems. Pay and quality of life are so poor at the regionals that they are not able to attract experienced pilots. Those aviators with considerable flight time are staying put at corporate, fractional, and FAR 135 operators because the regionals just don’t offer a viable alternative.
So what’s left for the regionals? Well, we are seeing it now; the 600 hr. pilot who may be able to become qualified by completing the airline’s flight training but lacks real world experience; the kind of experience only acquired by "doing it."
I don’t think we will see a shortage of pilots per se, instead, we’ll continue to see a shortage of experienced pilots. A sign of the times.
P
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Hi!
Introduction:
There is a pilot shortage worldwide, and it is getting worse on a monthly basis. Currently, the US is the only place (maybe a few excess pilots in Australia) with some excess pilots.
Boeing says that, worldwide, 19,000 airline pilots are needed a year for the next 20 years. They are setting up an alternative training program to get guys up to speed faster and cheaper.
Last year, virtually EVERY jet manufacturer worldwide had their best order year ever. And, 2005 WAS their best year ever, until they surpassed it in 2006. The US is seeing multitudes of VLJs coming on line starting this year, also. Worldwide, the projection for airline travel is going up dramatically. Much of this growth is from India and China.
Europe already has an Age 70 committee working, and they will ease the requirements for a commercial pilot, as the are getting so short.
India needs 11,000 airline pilots in the next 3 years. Last year they produced 150. China needs 9,000 airline pilots the next 3 years. They produce 1,000 per year.
Emirates needs 400 pilots by the end of this year. They told my buddy he is qualified to get a -777 Captain job with them. He has NO widebody experience, NO heavy experience, and NO oceanic experience. Previously, you needed to have a type rating and time in type to get a Captain job at Emirates.
Cathay is parking one or more freighters because they don't have enough pilots.
The contract agencies are going crazy trying to find pilots to fill the slots that they are allotted. They used to have lots of qualified applicants on file. Now they have very few, and the applicants they do have are telling the contract agencies that the jobs don't pay enough.
US Airlines already have plans in place to begin Ab-Initio (like air forces do, or Euro/Asian carriers where the carrrier pays for everything) training when needed (not if).
US Regionals:
The regionals are having MASSIVE problems getting enough guys. Unfortunately, you have to have Green Card or the right to work here already.
They are hiring EVERY 500 hour TT pilot in the country. Next will be the race for the Commercial/Multi/Instrument 200 hour pilots. There is a MASSIVE shortage of instructors-some flight schools have shut down, or are turning away students. No need to instruct when you can get an airline job.
They are paying new-hires bonuses of up to $5,000 USD. Many are paying their current pilots bonuses if they find new hires.
They are cancelling whole banks of flights. Many of them have also contracted for new feed service with more airplanes soon, and have found they can't even cover the flying the have now.
The regionals virtually ALL pay in training, pay for your lodging, perdiem, and give you jumpseat and/or pass privileges to fly home on the weekends. It used to be the worst ones didn't, but they have to now.
Pinnacle, Trans States, PSA (a USAir feeder) and USA Jet (where I work) have NO hourly minimums right now (we used to be 2000/1000, now we're Commercial/Multi/Instrument).
Almost all of the regionals don't have interview or class dates now. They'll either interview and hire over the phone, or they'll interview the candidates whenever they can make it in. Many of them run a new-hire class EVERY Monday, and take whoever shows up. We were trying to get 2000/1000/1 year of crew experience guys in to go directly to a DC-9 and we'ver gotten 1 so far, after trying for 3 months.
One of our competitors (we're on-demand freight and charter PAX) needed pilots bad and didn't even get a RESUME for 3 months, much less anyone in to interview.
Regionals have held classes of 25-30, and only 5-10 guys show up. At Trans States, Dec 2006, you needed 4000 TT to upgrade. Now it's 2000. Pinnacle only hires FOs, but the qualified ones bid for Captain on day one, and are awarded the bid while still in their first week with the company.
Pinnacle has contacted every pilot that was every scheduled to interview with them, and didn't, or turned the job down, and asked them to start class. They've even contacted everyone that has left and asked them if they wanted to return!
Our Director of Recruiting gets constantly asked to start class at a regional, and he's over 60 years old! Many of us in the US have gotten job offers from multiple regionals, over and over, even though we've never even applied.
Several of our pilots left for NetJets (a fractional) recently. Since Jan, they have experienced a net loss of pilots each month, even though they've been hiring full tilt. They have hundreds of planes on order.
US Majors:
Southwest just lowered their PIC turbine hour requirement from 1300 to 1000 hours. They did this because they didn't have as many applications as they wanted.
Delta started hiring this year and was shocked with how few military applicants they had (they used to hire virtually ALL military FW pilots).
Many NWA/UAL/USAir/DAL pilots are refusing to return off of furlough, because they have better jobs at the places they're at now. UAL/NWA and USAir will all be hiring MUCH sooner than they planned because many of the furloughees didn't return.
KATL Air Inc Hiring Conference:
Several years ago, a guy I know went and said there were about 1000 pilots attending. Last year, my buddy said there were 400 pilots. This year he said about 120 pilots.
Cathay and Emirates now attend EVERY major hiring conference. In the past, they would take Americans, but they never actively solicited them.
A guy I know was hired by Mesa at the conference. He said they got only 7 resumes from the whole weekend! He did NOT have a Commercial, and Mesa hired him anyway, contingent upon his getting his Commercial License. He asked about an intervew and was told it wasn't necessary.
Closing:
We found a higher time guy last Monday, interviewed him on Thursday, and he started class yesterday (Monday). 7 days from first contact to starting class. He was offered Captain slot at Pinnacle, but didn't want to fly with all the 200-500 hour FOs they've been hiring.
We had another guy with 1000 Total Time, 500+ CRJ time and a CRJ type rating coming in to fly the DC-9. He got a Captain's job in India paying $100K USD, with family housing, schooling for his children and a car and driver provided.
Now's the biggest pilot shortage since the early '60s (when US majors hired kids in high school with no time). And, barring a MAJOR change, it's only going to get worse (if you're trying to hire), or better (if you're a pilot) in the next few years.
Currently, FedEx/UPS/UAL/NWA/USAir AA aren't hiring. Within 6 months, UPS/UAL and NWA will be hiring. Within 12 months FedEx and USAir will be hiring, with AA to follow.
Wow!
cliff
DA-20 Captain
USA Jet Airlines
KYIP
Introduction:
There is a pilot shortage worldwide, and it is getting worse on a monthly basis. Currently, the US is the only place (maybe a few excess pilots in Australia) with some excess pilots.
Boeing says that, worldwide, 19,000 airline pilots are needed a year for the next 20 years. They are setting up an alternative training program to get guys up to speed faster and cheaper.
Last year, virtually EVERY jet manufacturer worldwide had their best order year ever. And, 2005 WAS their best year ever, until they surpassed it in 2006. The US is seeing multitudes of VLJs coming on line starting this year, also. Worldwide, the projection for airline travel is going up dramatically. Much of this growth is from India and China.
Europe already has an Age 70 committee working, and they will ease the requirements for a commercial pilot, as the are getting so short.
India needs 11,000 airline pilots in the next 3 years. Last year they produced 150. China needs 9,000 airline pilots the next 3 years. They produce 1,000 per year.
Emirates needs 400 pilots by the end of this year. They told my buddy he is qualified to get a -777 Captain job with them. He has NO widebody experience, NO heavy experience, and NO oceanic experience. Previously, you needed to have a type rating and time in type to get a Captain job at Emirates.
Cathay is parking one or more freighters because they don't have enough pilots.
The contract agencies are going crazy trying to find pilots to fill the slots that they are allotted. They used to have lots of qualified applicants on file. Now they have very few, and the applicants they do have are telling the contract agencies that the jobs don't pay enough.
US Airlines already have plans in place to begin Ab-Initio (like air forces do, or Euro/Asian carriers where the carrrier pays for everything) training when needed (not if).
US Regionals:
The regionals are having MASSIVE problems getting enough guys. Unfortunately, you have to have Green Card or the right to work here already.
They are hiring EVERY 500 hour TT pilot in the country. Next will be the race for the Commercial/Multi/Instrument 200 hour pilots. There is a MASSIVE shortage of instructors-some flight schools have shut down, or are turning away students. No need to instruct when you can get an airline job.
They are paying new-hires bonuses of up to $5,000 USD. Many are paying their current pilots bonuses if they find new hires.
They are cancelling whole banks of flights. Many of them have also contracted for new feed service with more airplanes soon, and have found they can't even cover the flying the have now.
The regionals virtually ALL pay in training, pay for your lodging, perdiem, and give you jumpseat and/or pass privileges to fly home on the weekends. It used to be the worst ones didn't, but they have to now.
Pinnacle, Trans States, PSA (a USAir feeder) and USA Jet (where I work) have NO hourly minimums right now (we used to be 2000/1000, now we're Commercial/Multi/Instrument).
Almost all of the regionals don't have interview or class dates now. They'll either interview and hire over the phone, or they'll interview the candidates whenever they can make it in. Many of them run a new-hire class EVERY Monday, and take whoever shows up. We were trying to get 2000/1000/1 year of crew experience guys in to go directly to a DC-9 and we'ver gotten 1 so far, after trying for 3 months.
One of our competitors (we're on-demand freight and charter PAX) needed pilots bad and didn't even get a RESUME for 3 months, much less anyone in to interview.
Regionals have held classes of 25-30, and only 5-10 guys show up. At Trans States, Dec 2006, you needed 4000 TT to upgrade. Now it's 2000. Pinnacle only hires FOs, but the qualified ones bid for Captain on day one, and are awarded the bid while still in their first week with the company.
Pinnacle has contacted every pilot that was every scheduled to interview with them, and didn't, or turned the job down, and asked them to start class. They've even contacted everyone that has left and asked them if they wanted to return!
Our Director of Recruiting gets constantly asked to start class at a regional, and he's over 60 years old! Many of us in the US have gotten job offers from multiple regionals, over and over, even though we've never even applied.
Several of our pilots left for NetJets (a fractional) recently. Since Jan, they have experienced a net loss of pilots each month, even though they've been hiring full tilt. They have hundreds of planes on order.
US Majors:
Southwest just lowered their PIC turbine hour requirement from 1300 to 1000 hours. They did this because they didn't have as many applications as they wanted.
Delta started hiring this year and was shocked with how few military applicants they had (they used to hire virtually ALL military FW pilots).
Many NWA/UAL/USAir/DAL pilots are refusing to return off of furlough, because they have better jobs at the places they're at now. UAL/NWA and USAir will all be hiring MUCH sooner than they planned because many of the furloughees didn't return.
KATL Air Inc Hiring Conference:
Several years ago, a guy I know went and said there were about 1000 pilots attending. Last year, my buddy said there were 400 pilots. This year he said about 120 pilots.
Cathay and Emirates now attend EVERY major hiring conference. In the past, they would take Americans, but they never actively solicited them.
A guy I know was hired by Mesa at the conference. He said they got only 7 resumes from the whole weekend! He did NOT have a Commercial, and Mesa hired him anyway, contingent upon his getting his Commercial License. He asked about an intervew and was told it wasn't necessary.
Closing:
We found a higher time guy last Monday, interviewed him on Thursday, and he started class yesterday (Monday). 7 days from first contact to starting class. He was offered Captain slot at Pinnacle, but didn't want to fly with all the 200-500 hour FOs they've been hiring.
We had another guy with 1000 Total Time, 500+ CRJ time and a CRJ type rating coming in to fly the DC-9. He got a Captain's job in India paying $100K USD, with family housing, schooling for his children and a car and driver provided.
Now's the biggest pilot shortage since the early '60s (when US majors hired kids in high school with no time). And, barring a MAJOR change, it's only going to get worse (if you're trying to hire), or better (if you're a pilot) in the next few years.
Currently, FedEx/UPS/UAL/NWA/USAir AA aren't hiring. Within 6 months, UPS/UAL and NWA will be hiring. Within 12 months FedEx and USAir will be hiring, with AA to follow.
Wow!
cliff
DA-20 Captain
USA Jet Airlines
KYIP
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ATP Cliff wrote:
"Currently, the US is the only place (maybe a few excess pilots in Australia) with some excess pilots."
How are you defining "pilot"? In Canada you still have guys lining up for jobs on the ramp (where they spend usually a year to 2 years doing grunt labor before they are made an FO on a Navajo or King Air).
You also got guys lining up around the block for jobs at Air Canada that pay a grand wopping $38,000 per year.
In Europe you have no shortage of guys paying huge sums of money to buy type ratings, and then paying to work for free via hour building schemes.
What's the average salary of regional FO in the US? Has it broken the McDonald's night shift manager level yet?
Seriously, it's nice to see hiring, but let's not get carried away and let's keep it in context...
And remember, we're still dealing with aviation... things in aviation have a way of changing over night... Or have we forgot about 9-11 already?
"Currently, the US is the only place (maybe a few excess pilots in Australia) with some excess pilots."
How are you defining "pilot"? In Canada you still have guys lining up for jobs on the ramp (where they spend usually a year to 2 years doing grunt labor before they are made an FO on a Navajo or King Air).
You also got guys lining up around the block for jobs at Air Canada that pay a grand wopping $38,000 per year.
In Europe you have no shortage of guys paying huge sums of money to buy type ratings, and then paying to work for free via hour building schemes.
What's the average salary of regional FO in the US? Has it broken the McDonald's night shift manager level yet?
Seriously, it's nice to see hiring, but let's not get carried away and let's keep it in context...
And remember, we're still dealing with aviation... things in aviation have a way of changing over night... Or have we forgot about 9-11 already?
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PosClimb
As always in this debate I think we have to distinguish between experienced pilots and wannabees going after their first job.... there will probably never be a shortage of wannabees. You are of course right on the volatile nature of the business.
As always in this debate I think we have to distinguish between experienced pilots and wannabees going after their first job.... there will probably never be a shortage of wannabees. You are of course right on the volatile nature of the business.
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Hi!
You're right-I didn't mention that Canada has excess pilots (I should've remembered, since my CEO is Canadian).
I know that in Europe they are needing pilots. One of the reasons that Asian carriers like Cathay and Emirates are having such shortages is that many of their European pilots are returning to Europe. Also, JAR wouldn't be studying Age 70 and easing requirements if there were excess pilots.
cliff
KYIP
You're right-I didn't mention that Canada has excess pilots (I should've remembered, since my CEO is Canadian).
I know that in Europe they are needing pilots. One of the reasons that Asian carriers like Cathay and Emirates are having such shortages is that many of their European pilots are returning to Europe. Also, JAR wouldn't be studying Age 70 and easing requirements if there were excess pilots.
cliff
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Hi Cliff
Given all the facts you stated it is just a matter of time to US allow highly experienced foreign pilots.
If a skilled profession has significant shortage law permits employment of foreign workforce.
If a skilled profession has significant shortage law permits employment of foreign workforce.
ATPCLIFF: I really enjoyed reading your description of the situation here.
A buddy at NWA told me yesterday that when he was furloughed a few years ago, he applied to be an Instructor at Pinnacle and they only offered him a job as line pilot, which still pays (a salary) little above US minimum wage.
He said that recently NWA assumed that dozens of laid-off mainline pilots would rush over to Compass when they began operations.
A buddy who might not return there told him that only 5 have gone to work there-and Compass certainly still no written contract for pay, benefits or anything else. Are guys interviewing there feeling optimistic after hearing about corporate promises, even if they are interviewed by pilots? If so, what planet were they on until now?
In a recent copy of "Aviation Week & ST", a regional airline 'executive'
describes the pilot shortage. Among those who operate the lousiest airlines, are these guys intelligent enough to discover the connection between their arrogant greed
,the minimum wage starting jet salaries and the surprise that there are far fewer applicants, or why almost nobody shows up for Day One in groundschool at times?
My sympathy lies with the brand-new young pilots who struggle and claw their way through some of the regional airline training programs. My buddy claimed that at one airline with CRJs, about half are not successful. Hopefully they realize, especially after leaving programs that are reportedly not good (a furloughed pilot told me about Chatauqua's training), that there are better programs-possibly training in a SF-340 or Beech-1900.
In my opinion, compared hour for hour, flying mostly short, very busy legs into congested airline hubs and back is much more valuable experience around weather or in winter snow to some (so-called) non-precision approaches in LAN or SPI in a two-pilot turboprop, compared to droning six hours from Niagara Falls to PDX in a C-130 with an FE.
A buddy at NWA told me yesterday that when he was furloughed a few years ago, he applied to be an Instructor at Pinnacle and they only offered him a job as line pilot, which still pays (a salary) little above US minimum wage.
He said that recently NWA assumed that dozens of laid-off mainline pilots would rush over to Compass when they began operations.
A buddy who might not return there told him that only 5 have gone to work there-and Compass certainly still no written contract for pay, benefits or anything else. Are guys interviewing there feeling optimistic after hearing about corporate promises, even if they are interviewed by pilots? If so, what planet were they on until now?
In a recent copy of "Aviation Week & ST", a regional airline 'executive'
describes the pilot shortage. Among those who operate the lousiest airlines, are these guys intelligent enough to discover the connection between their arrogant greed
,the minimum wage starting jet salaries and the surprise that there are far fewer applicants, or why almost nobody shows up for Day One in groundschool at times? My sympathy lies with the brand-new young pilots who struggle and claw their way through some of the regional airline training programs. My buddy claimed that at one airline with CRJs, about half are not successful. Hopefully they realize, especially after leaving programs that are reportedly not good (a furloughed pilot told me about Chatauqua's training), that there are better programs-possibly training in a SF-340 or Beech-1900.
In my opinion, compared hour for hour, flying mostly short, very busy legs into congested airline hubs and back is much more valuable experience around weather or in winter snow to some (so-called) non-precision approaches in LAN or SPI in a two-pilot turboprop, compared to droning six hours from Niagara Falls to PDX in a C-130 with an FE.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 15th Jul 2007 at 04:01.
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Hi!
The only experienced pilots that are excess are in the US and Canada. Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia and Australia have no excess experienced pilots.
The FAA and NavCanada made it easy to crossover with your US or Canadian license, but you still need the right to work.
It is the rest of the world that is looking to America to get their pilots.
I recently heard from a recruiter that his buddy was hired as a street captain and check airman on the -767LR. He was a retired US guy, age 63, and he was found by one of the desperate contract agencies-he didn't apply or even know about the job. They took him even though he can only fly two years.
cliff
kyip
The only experienced pilots that are excess are in the US and Canada. Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia and Australia have no excess experienced pilots.
The FAA and NavCanada made it easy to crossover with your US or Canadian license, but you still need the right to work.
It is the rest of the world that is looking to America to get their pilots.
I recently heard from a recruiter that his buddy was hired as a street captain and check airman on the -767LR. He was a retired US guy, age 63, and he was found by one of the desperate contract agencies-he didn't apply or even know about the job. They took him even though he can only fly two years.
cliff
kyip
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With the current situation as per excellent post by atpcliff, we should see an upward trend of pilot's salaries.
We should all work together to ensure that we get what we deserve and "pilots working for nothing" should be a thing of the past.
We should all work together to ensure that we get what we deserve and "pilots working for nothing" should be a thing of the past.
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I agree with atpcliff and I stated this in my March post that there is, indeed, a pilot shortage...off course, those who are "player haters" are going to "hate the game" but the reality is the pilot shortage is here, in every catagory of work. I'm definately reaping the benefits from it...
ATPCLIFF:
It appears that, based upon chats with CRJ pilots in ORD and MSP etc, the comparative pilot descriptions of Mesa, Gulfstream and other such companies has finally circulated all across the US from the UND (Grand Forks, N.D.) aviation program to Embry Riddle, and most places in between.
Have the parents who forked out (no pun intended) the heap$ of extra money for the expensive aviation training also become enlightened about the reality out in the real world of US aviation?
How about those who are ready to begin spending these huge piles now?
It appears that, based upon chats with CRJ pilots in ORD and MSP etc, the comparative pilot descriptions of Mesa, Gulfstream and other such companies has finally circulated all across the US from the UND (Grand Forks, N.D.) aviation program to Embry Riddle, and most places in between.
Have the parents who forked out (no pun intended) the heap$ of extra money for the expensive aviation training also become enlightened about the reality out in the real world of US aviation?
How about those who are ready to begin spending these huge piles now?
Last edited by Ignition Override; 15th Jul 2007 at 04:06.
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Hi!
Student pilot starts in the US have been down by about 50% in the last 5 years. I belive people have been hearing about the low pay of beginning pilots, and the high cost of training, and many of them that would've begun training are not doing so now.
Cessna's new LSA aircraft will help this situation significantly. The cost per flight hour will go way down, because the capital cost of the aircraft, maintenance and, especially fuel, will be much lower.
I think that airlines will be forced to start Ab-Initio training, regardless of the positive effects of the Cessna LSA.
cliff
KYIP
Student pilot starts in the US have been down by about 50% in the last 5 years. I belive people have been hearing about the low pay of beginning pilots, and the high cost of training, and many of them that would've begun training are not doing so now.
Cessna's new LSA aircraft will help this situation significantly. The cost per flight hour will go way down, because the capital cost of the aircraft, maintenance and, especially fuel, will be much lower.
I think that airlines will be forced to start Ab-Initio training, regardless of the positive effects of the Cessna LSA.
cliff
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Given the state of the industry, would you really consider a career in the airlines??? Highly experienced foreign pilots?? Most of them have better jobs than are available in the USA
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"There's no shortage. Flight schools and businesses that sell employment such as Air, Inc love to spread those rumors...but there's no pilot shortage. There never was. Don't get sucked into that noise."
Not quite sure that is true, look around you, not just in the US, but the rest of the world. Contracts companies are scrambling to find qualified crews, majors in the US are recalling, but 1 in 3 has already found another job and is intending to stay in place.
China is facing a shortage, as is the ME and it probably will grow worse as time progresses. Countries aound the world has been enioying the surplus of US and EU pilots, but that is about to come to a grinding halt, if it hasn't already. Heck, Cathay is hiring DEC as is KAL, rather unusual I think most would agree.
The hope for us all, is that this will drive wages UP.
Kind regards,
Not quite sure that is true, look around you, not just in the US, but the rest of the world. Contracts companies are scrambling to find qualified crews, majors in the US are recalling, but 1 in 3 has already found another job and is intending to stay in place.
China is facing a shortage, as is the ME and it probably will grow worse as time progresses. Countries aound the world has been enioying the surplus of US and EU pilots, but that is about to come to a grinding halt, if it hasn't already. Heck, Cathay is hiring DEC as is KAL, rather unusual I think most would agree.
The hope for us all, is that this will drive wages UP.
Kind regards,
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RE: Pilot shortage
There is a pilot shortage but only for experianced pilots. period. As previously stated young pilots still lining the docks in Canada for a slave labour job.
Listen, the flight schools are limited on new pilots becuase even if a kid wants to fly, and I mean is passioante about flying, in this economy he/she is going to way the salary levels, the cost of training, and the job propsects and give it a miss. Young people want to know that their education will lead to a good paying job. They see higher education from its return on investment potential. Generation Y demands this, and when they can work in the oil patch in Canada, right after graduating from a 2 year technical diploma and make a starting wage THAT ONLY A SENIOR AIRLINE CAPTAIN MAKES AFTER 25 YEARS. Why would they bother? I had to work docks to get my start, and I would tell my kid not to bother when he can make $120,000 per year starting in the oil patch in Alberta.
Also, the North American attitude towards pilot progression is the dark ages. We always demand experiance, but let me be blunt. The amount of "experianced" old Captains I have flown with in canada that are lazy, unprofessional ,and sloppy is staggering. Our air force trains pilots ab initio to fly F-18's and European airlines train ab initio for airlines while maintaining an air safety record every bit as good as North American airlines (better in fact.)
North American pilots have allowed the "cheap labour new hire" concept, and every pilot on this forum that said " I had to work the docks until I got my way up the ladder" is just as guilty of promoting a low waged pilot industry as the employers are. Junior pilots should be considered trained professionals worthy of a decent living wage. They need to become experianced yes, but how many pilots on this forum refer to them as "wannabes" - Lose the attitude Mr. EX wannabes, becuase someone allowed us all to advance. The Europeans consider their junior pilots as professionals, to be molded with the right training, we consider our junior pilots as cheap garbage, and that attitude, follows North American pilots through employment for much of their careers until they are seniored. The fault behind low wages in the aviation industry lies on each of our shoulders, for taking an outdated and un intellectual approach like " I did it,so can they" which proves NOTHING! Any idiot can load cargo, it proves nothing, and does make for a better pilot.
Listen, the flight schools are limited on new pilots becuase even if a kid wants to fly, and I mean is passioante about flying, in this economy he/she is going to way the salary levels, the cost of training, and the job propsects and give it a miss. Young people want to know that their education will lead to a good paying job. They see higher education from its return on investment potential. Generation Y demands this, and when they can work in the oil patch in Canada, right after graduating from a 2 year technical diploma and make a starting wage THAT ONLY A SENIOR AIRLINE CAPTAIN MAKES AFTER 25 YEARS. Why would they bother? I had to work docks to get my start, and I would tell my kid not to bother when he can make $120,000 per year starting in the oil patch in Alberta.
Also, the North American attitude towards pilot progression is the dark ages. We always demand experiance, but let me be blunt. The amount of "experianced" old Captains I have flown with in canada that are lazy, unprofessional ,and sloppy is staggering. Our air force trains pilots ab initio to fly F-18's and European airlines train ab initio for airlines while maintaining an air safety record every bit as good as North American airlines (better in fact.)
North American pilots have allowed the "cheap labour new hire" concept, and every pilot on this forum that said " I had to work the docks until I got my way up the ladder" is just as guilty of promoting a low waged pilot industry as the employers are. Junior pilots should be considered trained professionals worthy of a decent living wage. They need to become experianced yes, but how many pilots on this forum refer to them as "wannabes" - Lose the attitude Mr. EX wannabes, becuase someone allowed us all to advance. The Europeans consider their junior pilots as professionals, to be molded with the right training, we consider our junior pilots as cheap garbage, and that attitude, follows North American pilots through employment for much of their careers until they are seniored. The fault behind low wages in the aviation industry lies on each of our shoulders, for taking an outdated and un intellectual approach like " I did it,so can they" which proves NOTHING! Any idiot can load cargo, it proves nothing, and does make for a better pilot.