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Airbus 320

Old 4th Aug 2008, 22:08
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Guttn, why are you crying? Are you not happy with Wideroe?
Which rating? A320.
4500 hours to get a decent job? No, it took me 800 hours to get a decent job.

Sison; just go for it. Study hard! This is not a "walk in a park study".
Make sure the TRTO does not go bankrubt while you do the typerating Randhem in Gothenburg was ok.

Good luck Sison and dont listen to these union lovers.

Hasta la vista
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 00:17
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The trend of paing for your own Typerating is a downward spiral and can not be defended Working for free is even worse. It's like smugling drugs just that one time because you desperately needed the money, it's still wrong and stupid.
It's just as immoral to offer to pay for a TR and work for nothing. You are hurting the industry and ultmatly yourself by doing it. The unions should step up yes, but stop hiding behind excuses, pilots need to stand up for themselves too. The industry is claiming losses right now, but make no mistake, it is still growing, and the demand for pilots will continue to be high. You migh have to travel for a job to gain the initial experience and hours, but who hasn't done that.
To all you Pilots out there who refused and still refuses to self fund TR's and pay to work I salute you, you are worthy.
Anyone who believes that adding 30.000( that's net, after taxes) and maybe working for free, to an already overly expennsive(80-100.000) is defendable should have their math and finance tuition refunded. One of the reasons the start up LC carriers are going belly up, is they try to compete unfairly against other carriers by having their pilots pay to work and pay for Typeratings, these companies are allready so depleted of funds that they don't have the stammina of stying afloat. They hurt the Companies they compete against before they go under. Ask yourself how you would feel the day you get replaced by a selffunded pilot working for free, thus taking away your livelyhood.
Work the hard part, pay your dues, it's the way it has been for decades, still is. Some people get an early break, but thats just it, its a break, stay focused and professional, and you will get yours too.

We're professional, let's act accordingly. Make the companies act responsible too.

O

Last edited by Oluf; 5th Aug 2008 at 01:35.
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 07:34
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Oluf, damn right!

dushi, congrats on your job. But I cry for every up and comer who has been set aside due to suckers paying top dollar to sneak in line for a position. There is absolutely nothing professional about paying for a rating (or more), and ditto regarding the companies who demand this from you.

Union-lovers.... jupp! Just look at who have the best pension schemes for example. Lojality pays off. Whether it`s towards your union or towards your fellow airman. Remember; a good union doesn`t come forward with guns drawn right out of the starting blocks, though the media likes to put that angle on things. A good union is a formidable negotiator for its members, and those not happy with their democracy are always free to leave.
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 08:52
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Sison asked for help,, lets help him then!
Thanks for all help Guttn and Oluf!

Sison; You got my phone number now, call me if you want
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 17:53
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"There is absolutely nothing professional about paying for a rating..."

Me thinks someone in a priviliged position is looking down on some of us just because he landed the job he got.

How is that helpful to a person asking about advice about an Airbus rating?

All amateurs at Norwegian then? Including some who lost their professional status when they left the 39 seat segment?
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 18:29
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The best and most fun you will ever have flying - yes flying aeroplanes that is - is not gonna be flying on that shiny A320 jet - its gonna be the time you spend on aeroplanes - getting there.. It might sound silly, ignorant and arrogant - make of it what you want. Its my 5 cent for you.

Last edited by Yeager; 6th Aug 2008 at 18:30. Reason: composition
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 18:42
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Kystflygar, I stand by that 100%, but what I should have said in addition is that any airline that requires you to purchase a rating, either through them or on your own, cannot be considered professional. That being said, I understand some of the reasons why some experienced pilots would buy a rating to land a job close to where they live, but where does that leave pilots as a group?

Oh yeah, and I`ll full of $h!t from time to time

Reading through the thread again it seems that we have assumed that threadstarter is straight out of flightschool... But we don`t know his level of experience... I assume the assumption correct though, as he is also querrying about where to get 100hrs linetraining afterwards. At least get the job lined up first
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 19:51
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I will never pay for a type rating and I will never pay to work.

If all the pilots would stick toghether in this it will go back to when everything was paid by companies in little time.

So far I got 2 type ratings and I did not pay for them and the last one I was paid during the course also.

It is just a matter to stick all toghether in this and it will be better for us all in little time.
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 20:05
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You show a complete lack of self esteem and show you lack the qualities of a professional pilot if you go out and buy line hours! What are you thinking of? It's an absolute disgrace that firstly it's possible to do that nowadays, and secondly, that you'd actually do it!
Thanks to people like you the job as a commercial pilot has been tremendously downgraded over the years.

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Old 6th Aug 2008, 20:19
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Ok...Here we go again.

Self funding of Type ratings is NEVER OK. It should never be laid upon a pilot experienced or not, to fund training in any shape or form. It is something the company should be responsible for funding, they get good tax breaks on training, whereas Pilots do not, making it unreasonably expensive also.

It is OK for companies to demand a training Bond from Pilots trained by them. I should be a reasonable Bond for a reasonable time frame. Again, it is the responsibility of the Candidate to read and accept the Contract prior to signing. ( Have met to many people complaining about terms and conditions few months down the line, when it's all according to contract.) So read it carefully and make sure it's what you can accept. Stop complaining and suck it up. Always have an exit plan, if things do not work out. But do not breach agreements, contracts or Bonds. Or pay the consequences. If another company is interested, they might be willing to fund the Bond release. The company have responsibilities too, if thy breach the contract, they also breach the Bond agreement. So read it carefully.

Do not Self Fund Type ratings. It's like busting Minimas or operating outside the envelope of safety, at some point it bites, and it bites hard. Hurting you and a lot of others in the process.

Be professional pilots, and Pros don't work for free, hence the word Professional.

Both are destructive to our profession in a very serious way. So let us lead the ones seeking advice down an alternative route to Success, away from self funding and Slave labour, thus we will pave the way for our own job satisfaction and security

O
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 21:00
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SUUUUre...Right. It's like busting minimas and smuggling drugs. COME ON guys, wake up and smell the coffee. It's been around for a couple of decades now. Paying upfront or bonding. Do the maths...please...same, same. What you really should be asking is how will this affect your take-home and ultimately total salary for you whole career. 'Nuff said about all the disadvantages...Hell, you could jumpstart a jet career. Command within 3-5 years. I'd say go for it. Pay for your TR and you'll be rewarded handsomely, provided you have the edge...
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 21:29
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RYR.....wouldn't have expected anything less from you.
No difference between selffunding and Bond????...What planet are you from, No wait I know...Planet MOL, because there they all have the "EDGE".

How long does it take to pay back 30-40.000 "net" expence for a type rating,,,versus being treated like a professional from the start, having the company fund the Type rating, after which you work with a decent salary.
But i guess they showed you the math at RYR or whoever trained you and said it was a great idea. Explain to me why the company should make money on your training, a training needed for them to operate legally??? To prove dedication, incentive or loyalty??? I say the company ows that to the candidates, and it can be provided with a bond instead. The company folds after a selffunding and you are left there with nothing but a huge bill.
Don't fall into the trap of MOL's and every other Greedy Sceemers selffullfilling profecy of paying for training being neccessary, it's not. But there will always be the few that try it that way.

A decent company will type you, train you and look after you in return for your service and loyalty.

Anyways, I've stated my view, and I stand by it.

O
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 21:47
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So lets say the company pay your rating and require you to sign a bond. According to your post Oluf, there's nothing wrong with that. You are also saying that you always need an exit plan which basically means that you have to be able to pay that bond IF you have to leave for some reason.
So, since you don't want to break the contract you pay the bond. Where does that leave you?
I guess as an unprofessional pilot who paied your own rating
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Old 6th Aug 2008, 22:12
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Not at all. You take a job, sign the deal, and go to work. If you read your contract upfront, there should not be any surprises. What I'm trying to live by, and encourage others to do,is to avoid being exploited, and letting others exploit my fellow aviators. I say... have a realistic exit plan, in case somethings drastic happens.( My colleague a few years back had a Illness in the family, which forced him to travel back to his own country, he was forced to breach the Bond, but was prepared for it and thus avoided a lawsuit, as he stayed true to the employer, who let him go by paying a sliding bond) He wasn't happy to leave, but he had to. I can to a certain extent understand employers who demand selffunding, as many of them have been cheated by pilots who breach their bonds and care less about their word. RYR said bonding and selffunding is the same, if Bonding and selffunding is the same, why don't the employers offer the Pilots the alternative to choose between the two.
My point is do we really want to continue fueling this fire which massivly undercuts us professionally, or do we try and stop the trend and find workable solutions that gain the whole industry, and not just the short term
It is time to wake up and smell the coffee, stop the exploitism of our coleagues or the next one to suffer will be you.

O
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Old 7th Aug 2008, 10:09
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Here`s another way of putting it;
Company A hires and types you, and you get paid from day1 of groundschool. They have thus invested in you because they believe in your qualities and devotion, and hopefully loyalty to them, and take care of their new investment.
Company B bonds you for say 3 years. They also want to protect their investment, and wish to have the pilot onboard for the duration of the bonding at least. If the pilot chooses to leave, then there`s a check to be paid, as agreed upon before accepting the job.
Company C only accepts you if you come fully rated. They most likely could care less if they need to sack you with very short notice, or if you bust a sim-ride or equivalent, and won`t give you a second chance. Unions have been known to be illegal in such companies.

Can anybody tell me why they would want to work for C if there are any other options?

As Oluf says, B is ok. They are protecting their investment, since they`ve paid for your training, but perhaps lack top notch T&Cs. They are also aware of this.
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Old 7th Aug 2008, 11:23
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there is no problem with the bonding. Why should you leave in the first place if you ewant to work?

you would only leave if an other company pays you better, and usually if this is the case is the new company that take over on your bond and there you are bonded again to the new company.

there is only one solution if we all want to make a good and decent living doing this job: DO NOT PAY TO WORK, DO NOT PAY FOR TYPE RATINGS, at the end of the day companies will need pilots anyway and if we are all united in this they will pay for everytuing as it was common procedure until 6 years ago.

And by the way there are still few companies that pay for everything.

More over on bonds, after the contracted years (3 or 5 or whatever) you get all your monies back plus interests if you deposited it, anyway the best solution is to bond via insurance companies or via banks without depositing the monies (so you can do it also if you do not have the monies) you just have to pay the services fees ( for example some offer 2% of total bond per year).
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Old 7th Aug 2008, 11:38
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Oluf:
Market forces, dear colleague. Supply and demand....that is what dictates the numbers on the contract. If what's being offered is crap, then simply do not accept it. But we'll have to look further downstream to make a sensible decision. In my case I will be better off than had I joined a legacy carrier from the start. And no, those figures are not from planet MOL

I know, I know...if everybody refused paying for TR then we would all be better off...N-O. NO. It wouldn't matter at all. It's all about your take-home salary. And THAT will have to be enough to keep you with the company or you'll simply jump ship and find another outfit. Supply and demand.

Last edited by RYR-738-JOCKEY; 7th Aug 2008 at 12:02.
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Old 10th Aug 2008, 22:00
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TRTO

Well, nice advices you guys are giving there. But the guy who started this thread was asking about any good TRTO's.
Well someone mentioned Randhem in Gothenburg.
I did my rating there and I wasn't satisfied, and more guys from my course weren't satisfied. The instructor from the CBT training was a joke, and many other things to complain about.
So my advise, stay a way from this company, choose more serious company for your A-320 rating.
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Old 10th Aug 2008, 23:55
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A320 training and paying to work

I have Volume I, II, III, and IV along with a CD-ROM on the MCDU for the A320 family for sale. Seriously. Let me know if interested and I will list it on eBay. The books are heavy so shipping will be expensive if shipped outside the US.

On another note: As the Chief Pilot for a now defunct airline here in the US I have been interviewing pilots for quite some time. Once in a while I was contacted by pilots looking for employment and who was willing to pay for their own type as well as fly for free. Let me tell you, those resumes went straight in the bucket. I have had numerous discussions with people over there years about what is right and "wrong" in regards to getting experience as a pilot. This is where I stand on the subject, if anyone cares: It is wrong to pay for a job that other are getting paid to do. You are displacing another professional who does this for a living and cannot afford to compete with you (working for free that is). What I don't consider wrong is to pay to fly right seat in an aircraft requiring only one pilot. There are a few freight outfits in the US where pilots can show up, pay a buck to fly right seat in a twin-turbine aircraft and get some experience. They are not undercutting anyone, just buying some experience. Almost like an engineer going to school for another year to get a master degree. Anyway, I never kept the resumes of pilots who obviously paid to fly right seat either. Why? Because I prefer individuals who have worked hard to get to where they are, who have made some sacrifices and built good work ethics and character at the same time. Just a personal preference. Having met many other airline managers in my career I know that many don't care how you got your experience as long as you can fly and be a good employee, especially during times of pilot shortage around the world. Funny how things change.
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Old 12th Aug 2008, 07:18
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How big chance is it of getting a job if you buy a B737, A320 (for example) type rating.
I won't do it, i'm just curious, because i'm a guy who will more likely enjoy flying small birds than big ones -> Work my way up

Eikido
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