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Historical precedents...
Heavydane...
There is nothing stopping us from making a new deal with the BU guys. Until we do the 'trepartsaftale' stands.
Now, if we were to try to start anew I am afraid that the process would stop as soon as we would make clear that the 5 year reduction is non-negotiable. Why is it non-negotiable??
Well. Three words: Linjefly and Commuter. AND, let us not forget that we have FP's with 15 years seniority whereas the youngest BU captain was hired in '96.
That is what I mean by historical precedents. The linjefly guys are pissed as it is and the commuter guys are even more pissed as, in their world, they lost 8 years. Then look at our oldest FPs, some did the 'kniv-og-gaffel' several years ago. Can you imagine a 9 year captain flying with a 15 year FP? Add to that situation the FP's likely perception that the captains company was basically bankrupt, and the only reason the captain has a job is because the FP's company bought it AND then used it to pressure the FP's.
The thought of 'forgive and forget' is tempting. But not realistic. There are those who hold that BU actually got a good deal initially, they refused it and made their bed. In other words, they WILL join the list and they will join from the bottom. I am not that hard-assed about it. If I called the shots the 5 year offer would still stand. And it may if the BU guys bring it up I guess. They just have to recognize the state of their predicament. And I hope they do.
If BU did join minus 5, we would do all we could to protect them from lay-offs. It has worked here in SK and it can work in SKBU. Especially since there will be more shoulders to carry the load.
I hope that the BU pilots know that we are not out to get anybody fired. We have never and will never 'rape' anybody. That is not our style. But we also have a membership with expectations and the right to career progression after 15 years in the right seat.
I look forward to input from Empati as we have been able to at least communicate lately.
Regards,
Ramrise
There is nothing stopping us from making a new deal with the BU guys. Until we do the 'trepartsaftale' stands.
Now, if we were to try to start anew I am afraid that the process would stop as soon as we would make clear that the 5 year reduction is non-negotiable. Why is it non-negotiable??
Well. Three words: Linjefly and Commuter. AND, let us not forget that we have FP's with 15 years seniority whereas the youngest BU captain was hired in '96.
That is what I mean by historical precedents. The linjefly guys are pissed as it is and the commuter guys are even more pissed as, in their world, they lost 8 years. Then look at our oldest FPs, some did the 'kniv-og-gaffel' several years ago. Can you imagine a 9 year captain flying with a 15 year FP? Add to that situation the FP's likely perception that the captains company was basically bankrupt, and the only reason the captain has a job is because the FP's company bought it AND then used it to pressure the FP's.
The thought of 'forgive and forget' is tempting. But not realistic. There are those who hold that BU actually got a good deal initially, they refused it and made their bed. In other words, they WILL join the list and they will join from the bottom. I am not that hard-assed about it. If I called the shots the 5 year offer would still stand. And it may if the BU guys bring it up I guess. They just have to recognize the state of their predicament. And I hope they do.
If BU did join minus 5, we would do all we could to protect them from lay-offs. It has worked here in SK and it can work in SKBU. Especially since there will be more shoulders to carry the load.
I hope that the BU pilots know that we are not out to get anybody fired. We have never and will never 'rape' anybody. That is not our style. But we also have a membership with expectations and the right to career progression after 15 years in the right seat.
I look forward to input from Empati as we have been able to at least communicate lately.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Ramrise!
You pretty much hit the nail in the head. The problem is that it might not be the right type of nail. What I mean is your perceptions is based on what you have from your union. Which at times has been false. There hes been a lot of emotions (understandebly) and lack of research from your union. Some of the false information from your union to you has been done because they have been under tremendous pressure to show results.
Our union has done great job in keeping us informed and inviting some of Norways most profilied lawyers to our (regular?) meetings. We as a group feel it is wrong to give in on problems you had before the merge. Legaly we are right but moraly, maybe not. So there we stand.
I just wish that SK-pilots were properly informed from the beginning. The picture SK-pilots has of SBF/BSF, BU-pilots and old Braathens S.A.F.E. is often wrong.
With -5 years lots of BU guys stand in the danger of furlough. Some may never see capt. or L\H. Some was next up for upgrade and will now have to wait fore another decade. Others with 4 stripes will now have to come home with 3. We feel like a crucial part of a brand/concept that is keeping SAS flying. Why should we suffer?
But Ramrise, you are right, you guys would be unfear treated unless we got -5. So how do we solve this? I personally think the answere and responibility lays with JL/PJ (the company)!! As Herb Kelleher, South West Airlines, said; "look after the employees - they look after the customers - and they look after the shareholders." I say it's IT'S PAYBACKTIME! I don't mean in bigger paychecks, put in guarantees to BU-crews if -5 becomes a fact.
I feel that I am on thin ice here in relation to what BU-pilots want, but one thing is for certain; We, you and the company has to give, if this is to fly!!!! Pfor and the company need to take SBF seriously and send suggestions to how this can be solved. The letter obviously has to include consessions (innrømmelser).
Regards,
Empati
Our union has done great job in keeping us informed and inviting some of Norways most profilied lawyers to our (regular?) meetings. We as a group feel it is wrong to give in on problems you had before the merge. Legaly we are right but moraly, maybe not. So there we stand.
I just wish that SK-pilots were properly informed from the beginning. The picture SK-pilots has of SBF/BSF, BU-pilots and old Braathens S.A.F.E. is often wrong.
With -5 years lots of BU guys stand in the danger of furlough. Some may never see capt. or L\H. Some was next up for upgrade and will now have to wait fore another decade. Others with 4 stripes will now have to come home with 3. We feel like a crucial part of a brand/concept that is keeping SAS flying. Why should we suffer?
But Ramrise, you are right, you guys would be unfear treated unless we got -5. So how do we solve this? I personally think the answere and responibility lays with JL/PJ (the company)!! As Herb Kelleher, South West Airlines, said; "look after the employees - they look after the customers - and they look after the shareholders." I say it's IT'S PAYBACKTIME! I don't mean in bigger paychecks, put in guarantees to BU-crews if -5 becomes a fact.
I feel that I am on thin ice here in relation to what BU-pilots want, but one thing is for certain; We, you and the company has to give, if this is to fly!!!! Pfor and the company need to take SBF seriously and send suggestions to how this can be solved. The letter obviously has to include consessions (innrømmelser).
Regards,
Empati
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Hi,
I will play along for a while and accept that -5 years is the solution.
I see a lot of different flavors of -5!
Demotions/ no demotions
Lay offs/ layoff protection
LH fencing/ no LH fencing
And a mixture of the above.
As an example: I as an “old” FO could easily live with no demotions if ex BU pilots want to stay on their equipment, if they want to use their new seniority fleet wise, the new number should be the ticket.
Same goes for layoffs, I am not in the business of getting anybody fired! We lost 348 guys but two wrongs never make a right. Layoff protection could be the unity we need to get a better scope clause. Empati is right on the money- payback time is here and that is a lot easier if we are united! Remember the enemy is the lying cheating management, not pilots!
Always back padding
Heavydane
I will play along for a while and accept that -5 years is the solution.
I see a lot of different flavors of -5!
Demotions/ no demotions
Lay offs/ layoff protection
LH fencing/ no LH fencing
And a mixture of the above.
As an example: I as an “old” FO could easily live with no demotions if ex BU pilots want to stay on their equipment, if they want to use their new seniority fleet wise, the new number should be the ticket.
Same goes for layoffs, I am not in the business of getting anybody fired! We lost 348 guys but two wrongs never make a right. Layoff protection could be the unity we need to get a better scope clause. Empati is right on the money- payback time is here and that is a lot easier if we are united! Remember the enemy is the lying cheating management, not pilots!
Always back padding
Heavydane
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Ramrise wrote
Your solution to this is to make another 350 guys pissed off?? -come on Ramrise..
And Heavydane you put it elequently yourself:
Empati wrote
why bring it up? As ramrise says it´s non negotionable (but the other way around) :-)
Protect the Long Haul for x-amount of years, demote the ex BU captains that really don´t have the seniority to hold the left seat anymore and give the LIN and Commuter guys back their rightfull seniority! This is the ONLY way that we will become a close knit and united pilot groupe! I know you guys see that, you just want to better your possision on behalf of others.
The linjefly guys are pissed as it is and the commuter guys are even more pissed as, in their world, they lost 8 years.
And Heavydane you put it elequently yourself:
but two wrongs never make a right.
I don't mean in bigger paychecks, put in guarantees to BU-crews if -5 becomes a fact.
Protect the Long Haul for x-amount of years, demote the ex BU captains that really don´t have the seniority to hold the left seat anymore and give the LIN and Commuter guys back their rightfull seniority! This is the ONLY way that we will become a close knit and united pilot groupe! I know you guys see that, you just want to better your possision on behalf of others.
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HC's solution is the only one I have heard acceptable among the BU pilots and many Norwegian SK pilots also finds it reasonable.......However HC, the Norwegian SK is far from the majority, so the conclusion; no deal.
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HC
To get it straight.
My comment on two wrongs, was solely intended to cover the situation of lay offs of ex BU pilots.
LIN and SC is a done deal that all parties have agreed on at some point in time! It seem that total amnesia have hit a lot of these colleagues as to what the situation was when the deal was made.
Ex BU pilot at least have had the guts to say no to a deal they did not like, I respect that- not agree with, but respect.
And now we all move forward, please.
Heavydane
To get it straight.
My comment on two wrongs, was solely intended to cover the situation of lay offs of ex BU pilots.
LIN and SC is a done deal that all parties have agreed on at some point in time! It seem that total amnesia have hit a lot of these colleagues as to what the situation was when the deal was made.
Ex BU pilot at least have had the guts to say no to a deal they did not like, I respect that- not agree with, but respect.
And now we all move forward, please.
Heavydane
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Goodmorning Guys
Suppose the following events occur:
SASBU starts counting its captains and copilots and finds 50 surplus on each shelf.
SASBU therefore sacks 50 pilots and demotes 50 Captains.
All of theese gentlemen will be ex-BU.
Your comments HC?
Are your acheiving your strategic objectives?
Kingsnake
Suppose the following events occur:
SASBU starts counting its captains and copilots and finds 50 surplus on each shelf.
SASBU therefore sacks 50 pilots and demotes 50 Captains.
All of theese gentlemen will be ex-BU.
Your comments HC?
Are your acheiving your strategic objectives?
Kingsnake
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Hi,
Not an opinion, just to get the math. right!
""SASBU starts counting its captains and copilots and finds 50 surplus on each shelf.
SASBU therefore sacks 50 pilots and demotes 50 Captains.""
The right number would be:
SASBU therefore sacks 100 pilots and demotes 50 Captains
Regards
Heavydane
Not an opinion, just to get the math. right!
""SASBU starts counting its captains and copilots and finds 50 surplus on each shelf.
SASBU therefore sacks 50 pilots and demotes 50 Captains.""
The right number would be:
SASBU therefore sacks 100 pilots and demotes 50 Captains
Regards
Heavydane
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Kingsnake, if I may. That is all correct and the ex-BU guys are tottaly aware of a situation like that, but if there will be redundancy today, it will most likely be in Denmark..... With a degrade of Captains and with an upgrade a few years later, the ex BU-captain will even be bypassed by ex-SK.
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Gentlemen,
SAS Denmark, Intercont and SAS Sweden handle their own surplus. I explicitly said SASBU. The synergies and economies of scale will crystalise in SASBU by next summer when then integration is complete. A surplus of pilots and captains relating solely to SASBU can therefore now be foreseen in SASBU - not relating to any other part of SAS - and which therefore must be handled by SASBU. This surplus will have to be taken care of by SBF alone as there is no common union as yet. I am just suggesting that this task may prove impossible for SBF and leave them with for example 50 layoffs - all ex BU, and 50 demotions, also all ex-BU.
Are you sure your are moving in the right direction?
best regards, Kingsnake
SAS Denmark, Intercont and SAS Sweden handle their own surplus. I explicitly said SASBU. The synergies and economies of scale will crystalise in SASBU by next summer when then integration is complete. A surplus of pilots and captains relating solely to SASBU can therefore now be foreseen in SASBU - not relating to any other part of SAS - and which therefore must be handled by SASBU. This surplus will have to be taken care of by SBF alone as there is no common union as yet. I am just suggesting that this task may prove impossible for SBF and leave them with for example 50 layoffs - all ex BU, and 50 demotions, also all ex-BU.
Are you sure your are moving in the right direction?
best regards, Kingsnake
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Kingsnake wrote:
Dude don´t make yourself look ignorant. You know as well as the rest of us that only one side agreed upon the so called "deal" and then forced it thru!
Like somebody said, soon we will have Blue One and WF in the same boat and then who will be the biggest group? The ex SK or the EX everybody else! Clean the mess up NOW, before it comes back and bites Y´alls little BEhinds! You know the saying: "What goes around, comes around!"
LIN and SC is a done deal that all parties have agreed on at some point in time!
Like somebody said, soon we will have Blue One and WF in the same boat and then who will be the biggest group? The ex SK or the EX everybody else! Clean the mess up NOW, before it comes back and bites Y´alls little BEhinds! You know the saying: "What goes around, comes around!"
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Kingsnake! That is all correct! If we look at the way SBF has handled this problem in the past, I would rather be a SBF member rather than Pfor member with ref. 348 former SK pilots. If I am not mistaking, all SASBU pilots must go down to 75% position before the first layoff will take place, but regards to degrades you have a relevant point.
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Will all SBF members accept a 25% paycut?
If they will you have no worries for the first 75 layoffs. It might work.
I wish you luck and as always I´m sure the door is open at NSF.
Kingsnake
If they will you have no worries for the first 75 layoffs. It might work.
I wish you luck and as always I´m sure the door is open at NSF.
Kingsnake
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all righty then...
My dear Wiskey,
your last comment is assinine at best. While it is true it also is very far from describing the situation accurately. It describes SAS pilots as greedy bastards who continue to rake in the money while others have to go.
Well, in order for some to get 100% LoA it was necessary to be somewhat flexible. Because when some take a 100% LoA another gets to stay. Understand that?? We also have several types which complicates the LoA situation as we cannot afford to lose too many on any one type. It is alot easier when you only operate 737's. There are sometimes good reasons behind what looks like it a 'strange scenario'.
We did take 348 lay-offs. SAS wanted to make a point and they did. BU pilots were spared for purely political reasons which, poetically enough, has come to bite SAS in the a$$. If it does come to 'overtallighed' I believe that the 75% duty instead of being laid off, only applies to SAS pilots. That would put the youngest BU pilots on the street WITHOUT any chance of ever joining the kombilist. Has this been explained to them? The smart move for these guys would be to leave SBF and join NSF and kombilisten. At least there they have a future. SBF doesn't after march 31. 2006. From that day SAS will only negotiate with us. Why? Well, we will make them. Trust me.
Hotel Charlie again brings up his solution. The complete reshuffeling of the list. As tempting as that seems, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. The membership will never buy it and neither will SAS. It is a logistical nightmare in addition to being extremely expensive. Even if it is planned to take say, 5 years it will still cost the same. Spreading out the cost doesn't make it less, it just seems more acceptable. But, this solution follows in the footsteps of typical management solutions. It it designed to buy peace at a huge cost, and will never work.
The LIN deal was not bad deal. It was just very badly managed. Most of the LIN pilots I have flown with and met have accecpted it and moved on. Even the demoted ones, by far most of them, live normal lives. A small minority continues to 'beetch' and they will do this until they die. There are always some, always. And Hotel Charlie, the LIN deal wasn't forced. It was accepted by the group of pilots at LIN.
Referring to done deals is a waste of time. The only thing that counts now is the future. Your reliance on norwegian law has been heavy so far and I hope that the law can carry you as far as that high priced lawyer of yours have told you. If not you are in trouble.
At some point you cannot hide behind the law anymore, someone is going to test you and the law.
And by the way, Empati, I am very comfortable with the info our union provides.
Regards,
Ramrise
your last comment is assinine at best. While it is true it also is very far from describing the situation accurately. It describes SAS pilots as greedy bastards who continue to rake in the money while others have to go.
Well, in order for some to get 100% LoA it was necessary to be somewhat flexible. Because when some take a 100% LoA another gets to stay. Understand that?? We also have several types which complicates the LoA situation as we cannot afford to lose too many on any one type. It is alot easier when you only operate 737's. There are sometimes good reasons behind what looks like it a 'strange scenario'.
We did take 348 lay-offs. SAS wanted to make a point and they did. BU pilots were spared for purely political reasons which, poetically enough, has come to bite SAS in the a$$. If it does come to 'overtallighed' I believe that the 75% duty instead of being laid off, only applies to SAS pilots. That would put the youngest BU pilots on the street WITHOUT any chance of ever joining the kombilist. Has this been explained to them? The smart move for these guys would be to leave SBF and join NSF and kombilisten. At least there they have a future. SBF doesn't after march 31. 2006. From that day SAS will only negotiate with us. Why? Well, we will make them. Trust me.
Hotel Charlie again brings up his solution. The complete reshuffeling of the list. As tempting as that seems, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. The membership will never buy it and neither will SAS. It is a logistical nightmare in addition to being extremely expensive. Even if it is planned to take say, 5 years it will still cost the same. Spreading out the cost doesn't make it less, it just seems more acceptable. But, this solution follows in the footsteps of typical management solutions. It it designed to buy peace at a huge cost, and will never work.
The LIN deal was not bad deal. It was just very badly managed. Most of the LIN pilots I have flown with and met have accecpted it and moved on. Even the demoted ones, by far most of them, live normal lives. A small minority continues to 'beetch' and they will do this until they die. There are always some, always. And Hotel Charlie, the LIN deal wasn't forced. It was accepted by the group of pilots at LIN.
Referring to done deals is a waste of time. The only thing that counts now is the future. Your reliance on norwegian law has been heavy so far and I hope that the law can carry you as far as that high priced lawyer of yours have told you. If not you are in trouble.
At some point you cannot hide behind the law anymore, someone is going to test you and the law.
And by the way, Empati, I am very comfortable with the info our union provides.
Regards,
Ramrise
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Ramrise; Yes, if the ex BU can not trust the Norwegian law they will be in trouble up against the Pfor. I totally agree, and a lot of money would have been wasted on expensive lawyers.
Ramrise writes; "SBF doesn't after march 31. 2006. From that day SAS will only negotiate with us. Why? Well, we will make them. Trust me."
I just can not see how. I know both unions can go to strike after this date, but it will be stupid to strike for this reason since it is far from unusual to have several unions among one profession in the same company. The best will be to unite, but for what I have heard it will not be likely any time soon. My bet will be some time in 2007-8....
The SAS management has not impressed me, but if they accept to get dictated by Pfor, they might just as well close the shop like Sabena.
Ramrise writes; "SBF doesn't after march 31. 2006. From that day SAS will only negotiate with us. Why? Well, we will make them. Trust me."
I just can not see how. I know both unions can go to strike after this date, but it will be stupid to strike for this reason since it is far from unusual to have several unions among one profession in the same company. The best will be to unite, but for what I have heard it will not be likely any time soon. My bet will be some time in 2007-8....
The SAS management has not impressed me, but if they accept to get dictated by Pfor, they might just as well close the shop like Sabena.
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Wiskey,
bad management shut down Sabena, not the unions.
We are not dictating anybody anything. We actually support what JL has done with TA2005. Without it we would be history.
You see, SAS has stated who they will negotiate with after march 31. 2006. This means that if you want a contract next year YOU will have to strike for it. And if you do that you will be history.
If that happens you will have shown everybody why it is important to stand united.
Regards,
Ramrise
bad management shut down Sabena, not the unions.
We are not dictating anybody anything. We actually support what JL has done with TA2005. Without it we would be history.
You see, SAS has stated who they will negotiate with after march 31. 2006. This means that if you want a contract next year YOU will have to strike for it. And if you do that you will be history.
If that happens you will have shown everybody why it is important to stand united.
Regards,
Ramrise