Wingless GD

Surely one of the funniest posts ever to grace the pages of PPrune. Absolutely priceless.

Nurse, the screens...:}

Now get off our Forum you blunt git.

LFFC

I suspect the HRMS system Pontius referred to is the Civil Service System. Similar usage but not directly related to the Military JPA System. The teething troubles initially obvious within HRMS, and many are still unresolved, should have been a warning for JPA 'managers'.

lm

Still no flying pay today :uhoh:

Yes, my mistake - I found that out earlier when I had a look at the HRMS website. But my comments still stand - the wheels really should have learnt from that lesson!

By the way - I also noticed that the HRMS website uses SSL security! They are obviously concerned about Civil Service security.

Wingless GD

Would that be the same person that allegedly joined EDS a short time ago?

Likewise :mad:

Remarkable
 

In a previous posting I suggested the IDIOT who signed up to this crock would now be working for the company. Now, someone else seems to think this too. Well, after also dumping this WARFIGHTER S**T on us, he leaves to pamper his oversize fat ass in civvy street.

Banker. Or a word that sounds similar.

as in "Laughing all the way to the Banker"...

The problem at our station is being exacerbated by mixed messaging coming from admin house. Depending on who you talk to, we're still using old forms/process for some functions and when you speak to OC Accts (The Warrant carrying kind) the message is it's all JPA, go away sort it out. A lot of the procedures seem to be being made up as people are going along.

I've even seen that our accts guys have been demanding post-dated checks against advance of allowances for overseas detachments not on an FSI. I would be interested to see where this is written down as acceptable practice... Any admin guys care to comment?

Without doubt, some of the guys/gals in PSF are doing all they can (as I'm sure at other stations) but some are using it as an excuse to be obstructive and unhelpful. I personally have had a professional AND proactive service from SACs and Cpls who were anticipating problems and sorting them before they appeared. Hence, my pay this month included all the correct elements during a period of change. I appreciate I am lucky!

Many thanks to those going the extra mile at the moment. As for the others- you know who you are!

EDS: The single point of failure
 

After some more light-hearted reading on the web I came across this little snippet the Girls and boys from EDS seem to have pulled through and caused yet another IT fiasco.
Why, why, why do we continue to use a company that continues to fail us? Are there nice little backhanders going on in the upper Gov echelons?
To quote the article; 'By chasing cheap deals via economies of scale, the Government has made a rod for its own back -- putting too many desktops running the same software in the hands of one supplier. It might cost slightly more and be harder to manage,' it is nince to see these flaws being addressed, however this is from a IT Web News Site, not the common browsing for most people.

Well and a little further reading leads us onto the savings for the MOD. Giving the Ministry of Defence a cost savings of £174m over the first three years of its £4bn IT outsourcing deal.

Yes these are a little dated but, they foretold the troubles to come.

Oh and to the nice Mods can we merge both the JPA Threads now?

Quote from http://www.bae-it.na.baesystems.com

In March 2006, EDS launched the EDS Defence Advisory Council, comprising a panel of defense experts from around the globe to develop new insights and ideas for existing and prospective defense clients. The DAC is led by retired Air Chief Marshal Sir Anthony Bagnall, a retired senior Royal Air Force (RAF) commander with 41 years of service. Council members review defense trends and advise on best practices. The membership of the council will consist of members from the UK, Germany, Canada, France, United States, Italy and Australia.

The Register
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/09/eds_jpa_raf/
JPA stuff from Mark Ballard of The Register, garnered from Pprune.
Thank you Mark:ok:

<<a full in-service date of November 2006>>

Some one is telling porkies. As I said earlier, on the Defence Intranet

On Monday 30 Jan JPA was rolled out at Northwood for a pilot run until 24 Feb 06. It was an opportunty for arond 280 personnel from the JSU to experience a pre-production version of JPA application in a realistic environment. They will be able to test JPA and provide feedback prior to the application of JPA in the RAF in March.

Then at the end of March the Army announced that JPA would be delayed by 4 mnths until the end of Mar 07 so that the network infrastructure could be put in place. the Army has announced on the Defence Intranet that they are delaying JPA until Mar 07.

I got a glossy little pamphlet entitled 'The JPA customer Charter' through the post today. It was complete with an 'Investors in People' logo on the front.

I would have prefered a pay statement.

Or my pay.

Still no flying pay :ugh: tired of complaining, but won't stop. was on hold for over 10 mins today with jpac and did give up:(

Still no pay statement.

i managed to see mine online before they removed that fuction, but i've not received a hard copy :*

WIWO72 - mine's a large scotch please!

Surely you know that anyone using the Scottish Officer's full name is required to buy drinks for all those who notice!

That piece in The Register is excellent. Love his closing comment!

EDS JPA RAF
 

An EDS JPA staff member told me the following.
None of us here have any respect for our employers or senior management at all. This fiasco that it JPA has only confirmed to us that EDS are in this game for the money and nothing else.
To let you guys understand what's going on in Glasgow, the JPA section are a small newly formed group of people numbering in total 34 (not counting the pensions side of things which has it's own problems) including the managers. Probably there are about 30 admin staff who have only had 3.5 days training on the oracle system (not on RAF pay and allowances) before the 20th March. They are also from an army background and most of them haven't a clue about the idiosyncracies of the RAF. They were led to believe that this system would work just as you were and no contingency was ever built in to handle the number of phone calls that have (understandibly) been coming in to them. The Glasgow JPAC enquiry centre staff feel they haven't been trained well enough to cope with the calls and as you know they have been taking names and numbers for some of the processing staff to get back to you with the answers to your queries. It is not helping that the managers refuse to answer their own phones and tell staff to lie to people about when they can expect a call back. All this at the time when the staff need to be inputting all the element entries for the supplementary pay run on the 15th. Yes there has been overtime but with an average staff wage of under £15k it is not the huge amounts you may imagine. That is always assuming that staff are not so disgusted at the end of the week that they can't wait to see the back of the place. As a final word all I can say is that the staff have complete sympathy for your terrible situation as they have all been shafted by EDS for 4 and a half years now - they know what it feels like. They are getting nowhere with their management who are all in denial of any problems. The staff at EDS Glasgow would like to remind you that payment of any bank charges incurred can be claimed back through your unit HR and that if they were allowed to, I'm sure they would urge you to contact your MPs

Very interesting post admin glasgow. Sounds like you boys are as pissed off with the system as we are, and I don't blame you.

Good luck with those disillusioned people finding new jobs when they walk out in disgust. At least they have that option :(

Isn't the MP for Brize Norton someone quite influential with the tories???? He may even cover Benson too!!

How many service personnel there???

Ouch, that would hurt Tony at the moment.

I believe his email address is [email protected] if anyone is interested.

(source http://www.davidcameronmp.com/ )

And what else could you possibly have thought they might have been in it for? :confused: EDS's track record speaks for itself. The problem here is the lack of an intelligent client. How many times will the Govt allow itself to be ripped off by American software houses promising the (undeliverable) earth?

Of course, the promise of a lucrative sinecure could not have clouded anyone's judgment.

Step onto Soap box,
Gentlemen and ladies please excuse me I may meander, however my intentions are honest and my ethos is Respect of us all serving and in the community, holding dear the Integrity of the RAF, with Service before Self and ensuring my post stays within the Ethos of the RAF spirit. Therefore the AP1 (RISE);
What gets me is the phrase, 'leader' in everything EDS do or advertise, leader in what?
Governmental overspend/insecurity in introducing a new ATC software program?
Governmental overspend/insecurity in introducing a new Passport control system?
Governmental overspend in introducing/insecurity a new DWP program?
Governmental overspend in introducing/insecurity a new CSA system?
Now forgive me if I have missed anything here but what have EDS done for us but, cost the Gov shed loads of money for pants applications. There must be some monetary claw back facility? Or did they write the contracts on good faith?
I hope not as I'll get Cherie BLair (£250 per hair-do) as my Human Rights lawyer once I rotate back to civilian life. as they must have been abused at sometime within my life in the forces!! (some bleeding heart will tell me I am sure)
Wow EDS so good we said it at least 4 times in the BLair Administration, we can't still be brought down the path of its was the previous administrations fault! If so it was BLair and his party as a country we have managed to ensure his place in the annuls of British political history as the longest serving (I use that word with care i.e. who are they serving?) Labour Government.
Normally I don't get angry/upset about politics, but I am now reaching the end of my tether. we are now being left in the possible position of having to go on Det/OPs and pay for it out of our own pocket, only to claim it back, 'if we have all the receipts'. Now someone mentioned on the RAF forums that Admin will not impact on the trades. Oh yes 'Former IT Bloke' party stooge if there was ever one. If you wish to fly in an A/C where the Tech's are worrying about pay etc or the flight crew are as well.
Tell me the functionality of the system outweighs the security/operational benefits/time saving/admin burden.
The persons who commissioned JPA probably had the BEST intentions, however they were so far removed from the coal face they had no real idea of the impact upon the RAF of its introduction. We are now wasting at least 40min per call to JPAC (I have records of this) to find out if a SAC is now Q-OPS, this is untenable, as I need my SAC Q-OPS to complete the servicing of the A/C, they have been paid and given back pay for the Q-OPS rank, but this month it has been taken away as the system does not recognise the legacy F252. FFS what am I meant to do I need these guys to be able to operate as Q-OPS to carry out the A/C servicing, now they are worried as are they Q-OPS or not, are they going to get a pay deduction next month or not? I have phoned the HR section (PSF) the guys there were very stressed but tried to help the best they can, JPAC won't answer the phone.
What option is left to us the ‘customer’ of the AFPAA since the introduction of SAMA we the ‘customer’ have never been so left out of the loop, at least with SAMA PSF still had the KARDEX system to work from. We should not raise our voices against PSF/HR Flt but the personnel who arranged for this system to be brought on blind. Sorry you cannot trial a system with 230 pers on one unit over 3weeks and then say that’s it is good to go for a whole fighting Force, let alone Tri Service.
Looking back at the RAF forums, those with intranet can see it. Former IT Bloke is so far into the company pockets he’s in the hems of the CAS’s trousers, yes he does put up a good fight and I am sure he is able in his field, but his arrogance in dealing with us is untenable with his position.
We now are aware that the system is insecure; this is not tenable, versus, ‘functionality’ as he puts it. How would it be if, we as engineers said we’ll its functional, one trip only’ we’ll worry about security if you come back? Not to worry it’s just your life on the line? Compare that to not to worry it’s just all your personal details available any Hacker with an above average IQ to find? By the way they tend not to join regimented, hierarchical systems as they do not enjoy the structure of the aforementioned systems, therefore they think well outside the box to get into it. Leaving us trailing far behind catching them up, as Former IT Bloke said we are beta testers, however we are not protected by the Data Protection Act as he thinks, as the RLI is not a secure INTRANET as it has direct and uncontrollable links with the INTERNET, especially the JPA home page, if you have an IGS account and click on the Oracle Privacy link on the bottom R/H side of the main page you go straight onto the INTERNET, and packet share there, no mac address, no secure sockets, plain old clear text.
As I said on my original post I am not trying to stir, scare monger or do anything of any other sort I just want to ensure my data s secure according to the Data Protection Act, as if I was to hold a database about persons on my unit and it was unsecured and leaked out onto the public domain I’d be held accountable. I am just wanting parity amongst organisations, and to ensure we are not left as Second Class Citizens.
Step off soap box
If you want to argue for the security side please do and I'll be happy to research alongside you for a feaseable outcome.
P.S. If anyone wants to take my written words from a public forum and use them as the wish as long as they keep them in the context in which they are written please feel free to do so.

Boris the Bonker Johnson is the MP for South Oxfordshire's secret helo base. I'm sure if the complainant is a) female and b) up for it, that he'll be happy to deal with matters :ok:

New to the site and being from over there...ie ARRSE. i was reading with great interest about the dreaded JPA.
Im on HRMS at the moment and have been since last yr. Its nothing special and doesnt do half the things that JPA is meant to do, but many a time its slow and sometimes doesnt want to work till after its got into the office and had a brew!!
I decided to look on the EDS website and spotted this on the "EDS wins DII contract and JPA bla bla bla..."
"The statements in this news release that are not historical statements, including statements regarding the amount of new contract values, are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws. These statements are subject to numerous risks and uncertainties, many of which are beyond EDS' control, which could cause actual results to differ materially from such statements. For information concerning these risks and uncertainties, see EDS' most recent Form 10-Q. EDS disclaims any intention or obligation to update or revise any forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise."
The writing was on the wall!!!

you should know us adminers like having our buts kicked!!:)

A message from the Army
 

:ok: Thank you, thank you, thank you from the bottom of our hearts we are most grateful to the RAF for volunteering to alpha test JPA. Please ensure that before 150,000 squaddies are let loose on the system next spring (or perhaps next autumn or perhaps ....) that; it works properly, one can actually log in, the enquiry centre will really answer the telephone, it is very very simple to use and it is impossible to break.

Unusually on the arrse we have felt sympathy and horror at the teething troubles that you seem to be encountering and we urge to work harder to ensure that when the jolly jack tars start on the system, it is better and by the time (god forbid) that we let the jocks loose it should be instructable! ... otherwise they will destruct it.

Don't know what you are all moaning at, just read my JPA charter, its all quite clear and help is easily too hand as their purpose is 'To deliver excellent pay and personnel administration services.....' They aim to answer your call within 50 seconds........
Wonder why it was sent to my house when my pay statement has to go to work?
Wonder why my mate did not get paid this month because they reckoned his DOB was in 2012?
Still could be worse, could have eaten the Spurs lasagne, could have been a fly on the wall of the ODPM, could have been a scribbley but then nothing is that bad, is it?

Well, with a name like mine I can't let that go un-noticed! Yep, I bit.:ok:

I have to say that now that most users have realised that it's not our fault it doesn't work, and that we didn't invent it, and that we'd really like to help you if we could, life is not so bad as a scribbly. And don't forget, some of us didn't get paid at all (never mind not having the flying pay only) either so there's no special treatment for the PSF staff.

Your PSF sends a weekly "how goes it" report back to AFPAA, so if you want your points to be heard you could send a nice e-mail to your PSF and if it is accompanied by chocolate biscuits they might attach it to the report next week. :)

Would that be chocolate Hob-Nobs?

I know it has been mentioned more than once before in this thread but how come I have to put up a fully justified case why I want my pay statement sent to home, wth support from my bosses but they then send the JPA Customer Care Charter to my LO PRI address. Seems to be double standards going on here. I like the "harmonised basis" bit on the front maybe it means they have hired a choir to man the JPAC because they certainly don't have clue about JPA.

PA

I think that JPA in theory is a good idea very badly implemented. Not only do we have to do our own admin! now the terminology that we know and love has changed too. its no longer Scribblies but HR at one end and no longer a claim but a capped actual at the other? thank god i havent had to submit any claims yet.
I think the change should of been made in four steps, unfreezing by making us aware how inadequate the old system was then-changing implementing the new system i.e everything thats not happened so far-refreezing communicating how the changes have rectified the problems of the old system i.e how good it works and how much better off we are-evaluating check feedback from the masses and go to the AOC's cocktail party
quote:Kurt Lewin says "JPA is about much use as an handbrake on a canoe!!"

Day 10 - No flying pay, basic still wrong, rank worng etc, no answer to my last 2 SR's (service requests, or complaints if you're not lucky enough to be on jpa):sad:

So what do people do next month if they are not paid again?

The original advice was to keep one months wages just incase, might need 2 months at this rate!

JPA has to be the classic case of pressonItus.

On the bright side, lovely weather today.

Hey, I got paid a 'promotion grant' this month. The last time I got promoted was 9 years ago (it also said this on the pay staement) and unless someone knows something I don't, then I don't deserve this. However, I am still £700 down on this month's pay overall and despite calls to service centre (approx 5 mins wait to be answered), all that has happened is that I have been passed from one person without any knowledge to another.

I am not suggesting it is the fault of the individuals, but the system which for economic reasons does not train properly. They (and I) were always polite, and they were very dutiful and tried their best, but they clearly could not answer any questions without asking someone higher up the chain what to do. Why have a service centre (helpline) full of people who cannot help??????

10th of the month. Mess bills and logbooks are due. Alas no pay statement; no flying pay.

On the subject of pay statements only going to work addresses... how does that work for remote posts, they're stil legally entitled to their pay statements, when, or before they are paid; not afterwards.

Having read all 27 pages of this thread, I get a warm feeling that the national ID database, and the plans to track and charge all car journeys, will never ever succeed, as no doubt EDS will be involved somewhere along the line.

How about the cunning ploy to get the help stats up? Phone is answered within 10 seconds. You pose the question. The reply is 'I can't answer that - I'll call through to XXXXX. Oh - they're engaged - but I can give you another number to call direct.' That number is terminally engaged :bored:

Or am I being cynical?

Well the Minister for the Armed Forces (Adam Ingram) seemed rather surprised that JPA was a problem... When asked why JPA was rushed in when it didn't work he replied that the message he was getting was that it was a success with only minor problems... great to know that the senior management passes the message up!!!:hmm:

Anyway, he now has the message as to what is wrong with the system. I have no doubt it will be sorted.:}

BTW, after the ac we flew him on decided not to play, he also promised to by us a new one, so FSTA is only months away:ok: :hmm: :}

Tonks

I work at a remote location in Germany and still haven't had my pay statement - when I queried my friendly PSF staff (2 hours drive away!) they told me that it had been addressed to RAF Innsworth!!

As the only blue-suiter in a green environment, JPA should have made my life easier but I am more isolated than ever - I can't sort anything out due to all the problems previously highlighted and now the face to face admin contact has been removed my Missus won't be able to do anything on my behalf when I deply on ops next week. The 'you will be able to access the system when you are in theatre sir' answer doesn't really grip my sh:mad: t.

What the f:mad: k is going on and when will it be sorted.