I don't know of anyone who thinks that an electronic system for submitting expense claims is a bad idea as long as it works. And I don't doubt that JPA will work in time. The point is that it should not have been rolled out until it at least worked.

I don't know of anyone who thinks the actuals system introduced under JSP thingy is a good idea. If the hierarchy want to understand what is retention-negative about the RAF then this is it. This system is turning 'Join the RAF and see the world' into 'Join the RAF and get f***ed off around the world'.

Replacing a system where SAC admin staff spend 10-15 min processing a 1771 with a system where the claimant - usually senior to an SAC and therefore more expensive to employ - spends an hour processing the same claim is hardly cause for celebration, particularly when the system has been introduced to save admin costs. Does anyone think that anyone apart from the most chiselling of commanders is going to make people do this in their own time.

At least its a sunny day out here (again).

So there will be a couple of dozen Deep Throats speaking to journos in car parks around Gloucester! :ok:

Totally agree with Sir Toppam regarding the poorly advertised change to allowances, which in turn has made people more upset. There is a purple coloured A4 booklet knocking around with the standard politically correct pictures on the front, but it's pretty vague. Of all the pointless publications we get anyway - eg. the Royal Air Force 'electronic ways of working' (or something like that) - why couldn't we have produced a users guide to JPA?

The capped actuals thing is another own goal. It'll save a few quid in the short term, but it's not a hearts and minds policy that will retain. Regularly losing a few 'unclaimable' quid has a far worse long-term impact than a singular lower pay 'rise'. And unlike other policies where it's presumed the old school won't like change but newies won't know any different, capped actuals will be an early introduction to the newies to what the company think of you. I would ask "what do other companies do?" The army don't tend to worry about things like people, but then most of theirs don't cost hundreds of thousands to replace.

If I was OC Everything I'd be looking to offset people's anger and frustration with JPA and if I could aim it at the RAF's greatest asset - aircrew (remember, I'm OC Everything) - then reviewing capped actuals would be a gutsy move. The saving would be made by removing the associated bureaucratic process and issuing a simple, flat rate of $30/night anywhere in the world.

Capped Rates / Expenditure
 

It wouldn't be so bad if we had a decent pay rise once in a while. How many reviews of working practice have we suffered?

The Firemen get one to modernise them and they get 16% !!

If we got what we deserved, all those good for nothings and the nurse's would be on the band wagon after more money. The difference is that instead of holding the country to ransom, EG Firemen, we end up covering for them. Who covers for us, (Not that we are so un-professional to resort to those measures), but you see my point.

These capped rates are another example of ballox from the top with little in fact no regard for the people at the bottom of the ladder who don't get £400 a day.

In fact...... what do they do, to justify that level of pay? War Fighter First.... Eat healthy.... we these capped limits, you'd be lucky to be able to afford a Large Big Mac Meal.

End JPA now, before it really is too late.

Can't believe this isn't in the media yet? Has it got reporting restrictions placed due to red faces ?

formertonkaplum,

I actually disagree that pay is poor - it's one of the few things that would be nice if it went up a lot more, but it's not necessarily needed - apart from perhaps the junior ranks who should get barrel loads more money when they go somewhere like Basra. In fact, I would say that those who loll around in the UK and never go OOA get too much and a rebalance would be a great idea! (£50 a day LSA anyone?)

JPA provided an opportunity to rationalise allowances and that has been achieved to some degree, but the good has been undermined by an apparent net loss for many people as the new rates and levels come into force. It's what people perceive that matters, which is often different to what they actually get! The majority of people won't ever notice the difference between a 3% or a 4% pay rise, but if they have to collect receipts, eat the cheapest thing on the menu and/or ask the restaurant for a photocopy of the menu, they'll get niggly. Add to that unavoidable costs associated with being away on route - and I don't mean beer - and people will notice they are losing money.

If it costs people their own money to do their job, you lose their hearts and minds. But if you give them a daily flat rate and treat them like grown ups, sometimes they will win, other times they will lose and the reduced admin costs will pay for it. I'm gobsmacked we've scored yet another own goal.

Press
 

For the hierachy that want to keep the rolling goat f**k that is JPA out of the press the timing couldn't be better; 2-Shags, NHS's best year ever, 'where have all the foreign crimals gone' and the local elections are more interesting to the masses than 'RAF not paid properly due another crud govt IT project'.

Still could be worse, I could be short on this month's pay and still not have a pay chit to be able to work out why? :{

What's the chances of JPA being sorted before the next 'slow news days'?

TAX PERSPECTIVE?
 

Testing

I do not see what the tax advantage is with actuals. The rates were not taxed and nor would they be in the future. The airlines have rates around the world and the FOOD element of those rates is not taxed. It is true that some airlines have had to change their MO to ensure that their systems accord with that principle but none of them have gone for this half brained idea. As a side issue a chap at the secret airbase in OXON has given JPA as the final straw that caused him to PVR. Like so many Pruners I can quote time wasted on JPA -has anyone managed to put a HTD claim in yet?

To me, the inconsistency is between the desire to simplify (because it saves money - reasonable) and the reality of introducing a system of allowances that is petty, inflexible and rigid in the extreme - A 4 MINUTE phone call sir - THAT'S NOT ALLOWED. Has anyone tried tipping 10% in a US restaurant?

After 16 years in the RAF and believing that we were actually better treated than most of the civilian world, this is fundamentally changing my view of how much the RAF values me personally. It's not the immature software, it's the actuals system, associated pettiness and implication that I am untrustworthy that I am starting to resent in large measure.

SS

For all you scptics who said JPA should have had a thorough field trial before being released don an unsuspecting public, well it did.

On Monday 30 Jan JPA was rolled out at Northwood for a pilot run until 24 Feb 06. It was an opportunty for arond 280 personnel from the JSU to experience a pre-production version of JPA application in a realistic environment. They will be able to test JPA and provide feedback prior to the application of JPA in the RAF in March.

Well that is what the press office said on 3 Feb.

Then at the end of March the Army announced that JPA would be delayed by 4 mnths until the end of Mar 07 so that the network infrastructure could be put in place.

Help,

How do you submit your home to duty these days on JPA. All i can ever get is milage based 1st passenger which gives me 3p per mile, i.e. passenger not driver rate. Tried JPAC, waited 20 minutes, eventually answered then the line went dead. Wasted about an hour before I gave up in frustration.

As for the capped actuals, been having many conversations about this as we are going on det and are taking an imprest. Seems to be a lot of making things up as we go along. For the IE, I will be making my 3 minute phone call each night, and will wait about a month for my mobile phone bill, this effectively means that each imprest cant be closed for about a month or so each time. Also noted that as every receipt is returned with the imprest then the administtration burden, with fewer personnel has increased massively.

I believe that everyone should put up with the extra pain and include every possible receipt, every self certification and do not take the easy option not to fill in the paperwork. Maybe the vast increase in the admin burden will make those responsible sit up and take notice.

This sure makes you appreciate the old system. It is also worth noting that we are second class citizens compared to the civil servants with un-capped actuals, wonder what the new Secretary of State for Defence thinks of this.

Don't forget to hand back any money in the smallest denomination possible.

Cashiers prefer 0.01 Euro and 1 cent coins

Still no FP, still no pay statement. At least I'm not banned from the forum anymore - apologies to whoever I upset with the link that was sent to me by the Unit FSO...

It is illegal not to receive a pay statement when, or before being paid - see the Employment Rights Act 1996: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/96018--a.htm#8

We are also entitled to complain to an Employment Tribunal if a statement is not received on-time. However, under QR1000 - one must first make a Redress of Complaint within 3 months; but may then make the same complaint to the Tribunal concurrent with the redress (within one month I think).

It would be interesting to see the outcome of 1000 redresses of complaint against DCDS(Pers).

I could PVR - if I could log-on.


"JPA - putting the c**ts in accountants"

:mad:

Leaving the RAF doesn't mean you escape the effects of JPAC!!!

I left the RAF in 1990 and am now approaching the age where my full RAF pension applies. I thought I would ring up and find out if I had to take the pension at 55 or, as I will still be working, could I defer taking it and what would the accrual rate be for each year of deferment.

Being computer literate!! I looked on the net and found the following site http://www.rafcom.co.uk/pay_allowanc..._preserved.cfm which gave a phone number 0141 224 3600 for pensions.

I rang thinking it would be a quick call:D . The dreaded option choice girl who said "welcome to JPAC" answered me. This didn't immediately ring a bell amongst my old grey cells so I pressed option 1 for pensions. The dreaded " we are experiencing unduly high levels of calls" please hold. This of course should be " we haven't employed enough people and we don't really care that you have to wait"

So I waited and waited - bit of good musac Dam Busters:ok: on the line but no humans so I gave up. Rang a bit later same, rang again - engaged:bored:
Finally rang 0141 224 3602 - immediate answer!! but lady couldn't help said I had to go through 3600:uhoh: Asked for managers number of call centre and got 0141 224 8551 but of course no answer on that one.

JPAC was now beginning to ring some bells - had I seen something on Pprune about JPA - bingo read threads and became depressed:(

Decided to look on net again for more info on JPAC and guess what found that there is a freephone number for JPAC 0800 085 3600 so I had wasted money waiting on a 0141 number:mad:

I feel for you guys and gal’s left in the RAF who have to put up with this computer based rubbish. For info the company I work for pays £30 (in UK) a day for food - no receipts required.

HF

I wouldn't have thought the software writers would be too happy about all of this.

[I'm assuming that Oracle are the software providers going by the above spoof poster http://www.oracle.com/index.html].

Maybe someone should drop their corporate affairs office an e-mail with links to this thread?

I wonder.........

Just recently been away for 4days on a course,nothing new about that.Flights and hire car paid for,B+B booked through CHBS,nothing new there.Arrived at accommodation and had an entitled evening meal,1 course with a coffee to follow came to a grand total of £7.45,bill went on final accommodation receipt,saving to MOD £12.55.1st day of course had lunch,cost less than £5 so didnt keep receipt(told at briefing no need for costs less than £5),actual cost was £3.50.In the evening I went to visit friends and had a chinese(they paid!),saving to MOD £23.50 if I can't recoup cost of lunch.2nd day same happenings,friends made dinner,another minimum of £20 saving to MOD.Final day lunch as before,evening meal was a Maccy D's,totalling £4.99 at the airport waiting for the evening flight home.Again minimum save to MOD £15.01 if I can't recoup lunch cost.Thats a total minimum saving for the MOD of about £50 and that doesnt take into account the EE's I used to get automatically.

Now if another 10 people did the same.............and it happened on a regular basis?

Cost saving venture??

I cannot comment on what my final claim total will be as at the moment I still do not have access to a terminal to log onto JPA!!

PS.What happens if your receipts are in Arabic?

The JPA goons hire an Arabic speaker at, say, £50 an hour and spend minimum of 40 hrs work checking your receipts that are for the equivalent of £5.01 each. :D

Got to spend the savings somehow!

ranger

The system relies on just the circumstances you have described. I am assuming that you were in the UK but the principles apply anywhere. Firstly as a principle you do not have to have a receipt for expenditure of less than £5 (JSP 712). So for every day away I am sure you spent £4.99 on phone calls, laundry or a newspaper or any combination thereof. Are you sure that you did not spend £4.99( although I think that is capped at £4.50) on lunch everyday?! Also for those nights your friends paid/cooked are you sure you did not have a snack/soft (£4.99) drink afterwards or before you went out? As for the £7.45 could you not find anything more expensive and dont forget your half bottle of wine/ 2 pints with it and a tip of 10%. Finally if the receipt is in Arabic or any other lingo it is up to the auditor to get a translation not you, in fact I would recommend all receipts in foreign speak just to piss the system off. Having said that, they would probably employ a translator at £200/day just to catch out an overclaim of a penny! Good luck with trying to put the claim in.

Home to Duty (HTD)
 

Hoots,
After much scratching of the head and digging around on the intranet I managed to actually put in a manual HTD claim and get it accepted!

If you travel more than 240 days per year you can claim automatically, and it just gets added to your pay. If you get detached/deployed alot, and lets face it who doesn't these days, then you have to claim manually using JPA iExpenses.

The secret is to use the receipt based tab, not the mileage based one that you and I both thought the most obvious. As you spotted the latter option is only if you carry extra passengers on your journeys.

You put in a date the claim was incurred (say 1 Apr 06) and how many days you travelled. It is then up to you to calculate how much you can claim. Here you will need to get hold of a copy of JSP752 or find the signal giving the rates (intranet access probably required for either). For me with HTD(Private) I now get the Public Car Rate of 26.2p per mile. Don't forget you need to deduct your personal Contribution (PC) of 9 miles each way for private homes. The PC for HTD(Public) is one mile each way I think. Now tot it all up and stick it in the amount claimed box - phew!

Example.
If you live 20 miles from work, you can claim 22 miles for a return journey
((20 - 9) * 2)
This works out to £5.76 per day (22 * 26.2p)

I don't know if the system still stands that you can claim full mileage (i.e. no PC) if you travel more than 5 days per week.

Hope this helps to get you started

D4R

I noticed that my net HTD is less than the previous centrally-paid RILOR. After much digging it turns out that HTD is based on travelling 18 days per month whereas RILOR was 20 days. Therefore I have lost about £12 per month at a time when travelling costs are soaring above inflation. Another shafting.:hmm:

What a condescending plhttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons//icon8.gifnker. For your, and the rest of this forums, interest 'The HR Professionals' are as impressed with JPA as the rest of the Air Force.

After attending a 2 day training course (that was cobbled together by the trainers over the weekend prior to us getting there!) we have been thrown in the deep end with the rest of you.

So stop having a pop at 'Handbrake house', we are as much in the dark as the rest of you. I'm sure that where possible my fellow scribbles will attempt to help, remember, we didn't decide to introduce this thing.

Not received your flying pay! My JNCO received exactly £0.00 from JPA this month.

Oh yes we love the new system.

Having been around when SAMA was introduced this ranting is oh so familiar. The scribbles all wanted our Kardex back, back then, it didn't happen and SAMA stayed........history repeats itself.

A cartoon that seems to apply to JPA -

http://www.unoriginal.co.uk/cartoons3.html

Down 4 Reprogram,

Excellent post, thanks for that. Is that method the official way, the way JPAC advise whilst problems are still apparent or a fudge to get the money ?

Either way, I'll use it on Monday !!:p

D4R,

Cheers for that, will try again this week.

FFP, Hoots,

Thanks - I don't know of if there is an "official way" anymore, and I haven't wasted breath trying to contact JPAC as I've watched many others try and fail. However, the method has worked for a number of people here, at least it seems to get the approval of the allowances clerk who rubber-stamps the claim for payment by BACS. Until we get some sort of easily accessible user manual (not a daft eLearning package that only shows you how to claim a taxi fare to Whitehall) I'll stick with anything that works!

BluePeterBadge,

I know that people like you have been dropped in it just as much as us, and I take my hat off to the countless scribblies who are burning the midnight oil banging their heads against a brick wall to get things at least passably functional. However, personally I took SS's post to mean the software testers who are supposed to check the interfaces of new applications for bugs. There is always a danger when you use "HR professionals" rather than Jo Bloggs users in such cases because what the professionals consider straightforward and self-explanatory is just barking mad to you or me. Case in point (as has been mentioned by someone else I think) - the wonderful torch widget thingy. How easy is it to click on the torch, enter "%" as a search wildcard and then select an answer from a list of two possibles. I haven't seen any other good application that uses something as tortuous to say Yes or No.

D4R

BluePeterBadge
So are you saying that no-one from the admin branch was involved in JPA at all? Was it all aircrew, engineers, ATC, suppliers, etc who did it the work on a replacement admin system? Stop abdicating responsibility. The admin branch is to blame - maybe not you personally or those at a lower level but still adminers. You at the sharp end in PSF (or whatever it is called now) happen to be the interface or the public face, so get on with it. Don't hide behind 'Its not my fault' and try providing answers. It's not the fault of the girl at the customer service desk at a supermarket or even the pax staff when an ac is delayed because of bad wx but they still take the flak.
Just take responsibility for your branch.
If JPA was designed and implemented by non-admin branches I apologise, but that would show what the RAF thinks of its admin staff by taking this change away from them.

Scapegoatisasolution

Grow up. The guys in Handbrake house at Station level have had as much input to JPA as as F/O Bloggs had to Typhoon Weapons (guns) requirements has had. It is pointless and divisive to screw these people over. They have been, and still are trying to make the best of a very bad job. If you feel the need to have a dig, then do so (and I shall support you all the way) at the nerd who signed it off as being fit for purpose when it is clearly only fit for a:mad: wiping.

Kitbag, well said. Scapegoat is just being an @rse.

Please see my earlier post. JPA was trialled at a PURPLE base. JPA is JOINT. OK, maybe the RAF is the lead organisation. Maybe the Army is just along for the ride (as always :) ). Whatever, it is a JOINT project.

If it was joint then it is unfair blaming PSF - yes it is still PSF just the name has changed for Services to Support.

PN,
If it still is PSF why did I have to send my receipts to 'Chf Clk, HR Flight'?
Kev Nurse/Kitbag,
Being told by the HR staff that JPA is not their fault and responsibility is utter bollox. If I was told to address admin enquiries to the JPAC or Air Cdre T at Worthy Down, why are they still employed on base in the HR Flt? This came from the person I have to send my receipts for audit. Should I send my receipts in future to the JPAC or Worthy Down? The answer is no I shouldn't because unit admin still exists and should be the point of contact.
Ringing the JPAC is a waste of time in both waiting for an answer and the answer you get from the Helpdesk personnel. Like HR Flt, these helpdesk personnel do not have the knowledge to be of any use - but why should we accept that? It is no good saying that it'll be OK in a few years or the staff will learn as you are messing with money and morale.
I accept the point that responsibility for JPA should only be a third for the light blue adminers as its purple. I also accept the point of venting our spleen at the person signing it off but who is that? Who is going to listen and get it fixed?

Blue Peter Badge

Ah, the 'we don't like it either so it isn't our fault' line. Well, it is an ocean-going disaster and it would be interesting to know which branch the RAF personnel involved in this project were drawn from. Couldn't possibly suggest that it was the admin branch because that might imply that they didn't do their job properly.

Don't use 'we've f***ed up our own people's pay as well' as an excuse to try and make it seem all right - you've f***ed up everyone's.

SS

Ah, clearly a well organised change better than the Binbrook system. Instead of the whole station adopting the new wing system in one go we do it by stages and differently.

Move Supply from Admin to Eng. Change Eng to Eng and Supply. Slip in Forward and Back (I Know what it really is). Rename in Logs etc.

Then for fun get rid of Admin Wg.

As a secret tea base in Lincolnshire they are now Base Support Wing. How about the handful of other stations? Can't remember what happened to PMS but, as I said earlier, PSF changed to PSF.

Silly to chanhe to HR as this might then mean being taken in to the civil service HRMS :)

So, is there a common set of names for the new EAW structure or are all the stations making it up on the fly?

Oh for the days when all the bomber stations had common telephone directories - some of these legacy numbers are still in use today - x301 x 302 for Ops, x437 for SOPO. x314 for photographic. MT was another common number as were the sequence for sqn 1, sqn 2 and sqn 2. Made life simple when moving between stations on postings of diversions. Now the guy who dreamt that up and implemented it deserved a medal. - Probably Broadhurst :}

Slippery slappery, you sound like you know nothing and your last post proves it. The officer corps brought this bloody system to us not the pers admins - we are the ones who are losing 30% of our trade!!!!! How many times was the system tested in PSF - none!!! How many times did we see the system up and running before the 20 Mar 06 - none! One of our so called leaders who will probably get another medal for this, signed up to this not a pers admin - do not forget that!

So why did we take JPA - guess why so that they could save money - so that they could lower your allowances in one large swoop and so that we could take another step towards one force - JSP's say it all!!

JPA is supposed to give you guys out there the chance to do all your OWN admin - not so easy now is it? Do you think SAMA was any better when it first came in - NO! But adminers made it work - a bit like we are helping you out at the moment when to be honest we should be referring you to the civvies at the JPAC!

If you do not believe me ask for a list of the personnel at Worthy Down on the teams that brought in this system!!! How rank heavy?

Has someone f****d up your pay? We are working all the hours to try to rectify people's problems - I sometimes wonder why - Ask the people I have had to sack the same question!

SS

Your apportioning of blame is both laughable and unnecessary; is every plane crash the aircrews fault because they are the ones who fly them? I don't think so.

Sure the Admin branch is involved, but if you managed to read any of the pre-introduction propaganda you would know that JPA is an 'off the shelf package'. EDS hold the contract (Passport office fame) and Oracle (System designers) provide technical backup.

There are whole rafts of people attempting to make this work (Civilian, Army, RN & RAF). You can line them all up and shoot them if you wish, although I really think you should align your guns on those who decided on turning this on before it was ready. A financial decision I do believe.

Thank you to Kitbag, Kev Nurse & Down 4 Reprogram for your comments.

For what it is worth 'JPA will eventually work EVENTUALLY', (because we are going to have to make it) but it isn't going to be anytime soon!

BPB

SS

Although I'm as angry about the implementation of JPA as everyone else, I really do think that you should take a long (perhaps alcohol free) look at your post and think again.

I understand that local PSF/HR people have been working all hours over the last few weeks to try and sort out the mess that they have been dropped into through no fault of their own. Moreover, suspect that if it wasn't for them, none of us would have been paid at all this month!

Consider for a second how it must feel to see your job about to be replaced by a new system, and then to have to work all hours to bail out that system in order for it to have any chance of success. I'm sure they all saw the lack of attention apparently paid to any detail of the transition process by the IPT and EDS. Unfortunately, that's a recurrent theme throughout all of our procurement projects at the moment - and it has to stop!!!

Personally, I'd like to congratulate the local PSF/HR people for trying so hard on our behalf - it must be very tempting for them to just walk away from the problem.

On the other hand, I do hope that when the National Audit Office hold their investigation into this mess - and I'm sure that that will have to happen - they demand to see the JPA transition plan and risk assessments and ask the Senior Reporting Officer why he thought that JPA was ready for implementation on 1 Apr 06. Was it because JPA had been fully tested and found to be mature, secure and robust? Or was it because, from that date,

• SAMA and other existing contracts had not been renewed,
• staff cuts in local PSF/HR offices had to be made in order for the RAF to meet its promised manpower reductions
• new regulations for allowances/expenses had to be implemented in order to make savings?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/...ons/icon14.gif Another post for the beleaguered PSF Staffs :ok:

The only forum the unit has is a weekly return that is submitted by PMS to Innsworth. The return my unit submits does not 'pull its punches'. It has remained on unsatisfactory since rollout. The truth is there is no magic wand that can be waved. We are stuck with it, like it or not I'm afraid.

The failings of the system are all being noticed but the shear volume is overwhelming.

For individual help, try approaching your unit PSF, we are all maxed out, but I'm sure your staff will help (if the JPA system will let them), but try reading the 'scrolling news' or FAQs on the Stn JPA website first. PSF staffs are all 'reading the on-line user guides' to find out how things are done, we certainly would not claim to be experts yet. As people find out the what/where and how the thing works the info is passed around.

As I stated in an earlier post the trainers only received the thing on the Friday prior to training proceeding on the following Monday. They did what they could in the time they had.

The JPAC staff pass out contradicting information, when and if you can get them to answer. Again lack of training/knowledge of the system.

So once again, I will agree with one and all 'It is a cluster' but we have to get on with it.

BPB

You should have seen how JPA was tested - 280 people, one site, 3 weeks. How long was the whole program in developement?

HRMS fell over because the pipe to its server was not big enough. Richard Hadfield, 2PUS, held his hand up and slowed the migration to HRMS in some areas by a few months. It started small and slowly builds up. Not perfect but it does seem to work.

MFMIS is running late on 'defered success' and missed its latest introduction date - training has not started AFAIK. At least it will come in in 2 phases although there will not be parallel runnng ALFENS will not be switched off

So they knew that this would happen! I suppose it seemed like a persuasive argument, "Well - it's only the RAF, and look at the savings we'll make!"

How do you factor into this the cost of loss of morale, the loss of confidence in leadership etc etc..... I doubt if that was considered.....and all of this whilst we are fighting a war on 2 fronts!

Believe me, I'm always the first to embrace change, but it has to be properly planned!

BPB, what do you call the new wings etc in your neck of the woods?

Yawn!
 

You might like to know that JPA was the brainchild and personal mission of the retired Scottish Air Marshal. Last time I checked, he was a pointy-nosed jet driver. Thank the Gods for what remains of the Admin Branch and the Pers Admin Trade who will, as always, snatch victory from the jaws of defeat on behalf of those they serve, grateful or not!:ok: