Ref P90 above...


I still fail to see how they are going to make Viking VGS 'larger'.


..You can give them as many gadgets as you like to increase the launch rate but the circuit can only take so many conventional gliders at one time.


They cannot simply go away and hold if the circuit gets a bit busy.


Generally, as soon as an aircraft is on base leg then launches stop until the A/C has landed.


Granted, on exceptional days when soaring conditions permit you can launch the fleet and sit around for an hour...but on the other 360 days, circuit bashing is the norm!

HP90

Retrieve winches would not suit ACO Operations.

Go to the Long Mynd and watch one at work. They are terrific for that sort of Operation but for the ACO setup - no way, due to the amount of aircraft on the ground at any one time (and associated staff standing by them debriefing etc.........), and no way you would operate 2 on the same field............1 retrieve cable screw up and you would have the mother of all birds nests to sort out............

I think H&S would stop retrieve winches on an ACO operation before it even started. For the safety of the students I for one would prefer it that way.

Arc

Cable retrieve winches
 

622 & ARC All valid points and very 'limiting' for a problem that does not exist.

In fact it is as limiting as the capacity for the organisation to organise anything that is seen as 'sensible'. Although some new winches will eventually be useful the lack of aircraft to fly is the largest limiting factor in everything;coupled with
the continued presence of a nest of half wits who masquerade as the management. What does it take for SOMEONE remotely in the system somewhere to realise WHY numbers fall and why they can not be encouraged to stay. More AEF is not the answer as that NEVER produced the same attraction of actually learning to fly a glider whilst you were young. As the BGA now sends solo's at 14 the ATC should have a serious rethink on what will encourage Cadets to join AND STAY. It seems ridiculous that we have to even have a conversation about it. My God; we had an ORGANISATION that worked well until it was Screwed up by the PAID staff in charge,and it is not too late to rescue the situation before ALL the experience has departed.However it needs change and competent leadership;something the ATC better get their head around before there is no organisation left, and no staff capable to run it.

Some sad news from France, I hope they can get her repaired

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attac...3&d=1461613077

Picture credit and more information / pictures

Slingsby T.21 Blown Away

If club launchpoint/winch communications are anything to go by, there are probably still a few VGS winch drivers sitting in their winches and wondering what the delay is. :}

Operations with a retrieve winch need only one winch and one cable. As Pobjoy says, the bottleneck in the launch rate will be determined other factors. I wouldn't argue against each VGS having a second main and retrieve winch in case one goes unservicable though.

I hope the people who get the French T21 down plan it so no further damage results. Fingers crossed it will be back in the air (manned this time) in the near future.

I would wager that Barge will be flying again before another 2FTS machine...

Thanks all for the feedback re. cable retrieve winches.

I was just thinking about ways to reduce the increased amount of retrievals required with the new 2-drum winches versus the old 6-drum winches (which will take more time, and require more personnel).

If 73 Vikings are recovered and split between the 11 VGSs, then each VGS will have 6-7 airframes each. With this in mind, in hindsight it may have been better for 2FTS to order 11 Skylaunch SkyDrive 6-drum winches, as opposed to 25 2-drum winches. It makes little sense to upscale the size of the VGSs, but downscale the winch frequency rate, but we are where we are now - I guess we'll just have to accept more retrievals in future.

Skydrive 4 or 6 Drum Winch

T21
 

Looking at the sky it looks like a mini squall lifted her up.
However as she was 'caught' in a convenient large bush and not 'thumped' over onto her back the home of the Jodels will see her back very soon.
As with most accident recovery it is the care of recovery that makes a huge difference.The French will sort that and she could make the Air Cadet 75 before our own fleet. Shame about the colour scheme; the original siver and yellow from training command looked much better.
HP 90 How eye watering expensive are those new 6 drum options !!

Using the price configurator on the Skylaunch site, and assuming Diesel engines are used in both the 2-drum and 6-drum winches (and excluding any optional extras, since we don't know what 2FTS require, although it would likely be the same on both so it would balance out), my rough estimates are as follows:

2-drum winch = £84,492 each (inc. VAT @ 20%)
x25 = £2,112,300

6-drum winch = £182,265.60 each (inc. VAT @ 20%)
x11 = £2,004,921.60

Actually would be £107,378.40 cheaper!!!

-----
Edit:

Given those figures, I really don't understand why 2FTS chose the 2-drum option in the first place.

At the time the order was placed, there were 8 conventional glider VGSs, so I presume the plan must have been to give x3 2-drum winches to each VGS (making for 24 in total), thus giving a 6-cable capacity to each VGS.

But x8 6-drum winches could've been purchased for £634,175 less than x25 2-drum winches. Perhaps this is an example of some bean counter looking at unit costs, seeing that the 2-drum winches were almost £100,000 cheaper than the 6-drum winches, and assuming there would be big cost savings as a result? Baffling.

I would imagine the MOD got some sort of bulk purchase price for the winches.


It's also probably a logistics thing...easier to move a 2 drum winch about (back of a Landrover?) especially for servicing / re siting etc than a 6 drum thing.


Possible thinking is also that multiple 2 drum winches is better than 1 x 6 drum winch if you have an engine problem on one winch...it doesn't ground you!

It'll also be easier to dispose of 2 drum winches in a year or so when they're considered surplus to requirements.

And talking of surplus to requirements, could we run a lottery for how long it'll be before a number of Viking airframes are offered for disposal? They'll have been fully refurbished and with all paperwork up to date and they'll be available for a snip (i.e. much less than it's cost to bring them up to scratch).

On that subject, anyone care to hazard a guess at the true cost of bringing a Viking back in to service? I'm sure I read somewhere that it's around one man month per glider for inspection and paperwork labour but what about the true cost of all the other overheads (if it was a commercial business) from the head of 2FTS down?


7700

Yup, they probably negotiated base price listed plus 60% per unit ;)

Nutloose beat me to it -

They SHOULD and COULD get a discount but that seems to be beyond procurement.

...And lets not forget the Airfield caravans that have been sitting around for the last couple of years....http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

And the new white fleet (actually yellow) vehicles.


7700

HP 90

We used to do OK with twin drum winches before. Most schools had 2 (1 line schools), some larger schools had 3 (2 line schools). Or kept as a spare. Often the parent unit had a 'ready use' spare which could be brought down at a couple of days notice or swapped out if a major service was required away from the school. The winches were towed on the road by a standard Bedford 4 tonner. Later big MVG winches required a low loader to move on the road and there were no local spares at parent units - so a degree of flexibility was lost.

We used 1 tow out vehicle per winch/pair of cables and this prevented them getting 'crossed' (tangled). Later we used a single vehicle and a spreader bar.

In some respects its better to have a pair of winches - as people have said you don't stop operating if you have an engine problem. Also towing single pairs of cables is easier on the MT and stops the ground getting badly churned up in front of the winch and at the launch point.

Twin drum winches are much lighter - they don't bog down on grass sites where there are no hardstands or peri-tracks - and if they do, you can often do a local recovery - the MVG usually needed a full recovery unit from the parent unit or the white fleet supplier as they weighed so much..........

Some days you could operate a quick and easy operation if you just towed out a single winch and pair of cables..............

You points on costs are however, very valid

Arc

It is all very jolly having a pop at "procurement", which is sometimes deserved but not as often as you think, but one should ask whose job it is to specify and quantify what and how many of a given item is required. And who makes materiel and financial provision for the upkeep of airworthiness data and, ultimately, the Safety Case. And whose terms of reference, uniquely, grant authority to overrule on all these issues using "engineering judgement". For any given item in the inventory this is the same identifiable individual. In this case, an RAF post, and he/she doesn't work in "procurement" (because this is something you do before being promoted into procurement). And I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't an engineer, which is the root of many problems in this domain (noting that the current problem on gliding is precisely the same as forced the scrapping of MRA4).

"noting that the current problem on gliding is precisely the same as forced the scrapping of MRA4"

Hence my comments regarding disposal in the not too distant future rather than return to service.


7700

Interesting ...

https://mobile.twitter.com/OC6AEF/st...86075028127744

Vigilant to Tutor VGS Conversion training underway ?

Coff

He's the CFI of Brize Flying Club and a FI(E). So hardly your average VGS pilot! He sits on the AOPA Instructor Committee (Instructor Committee)

B Word :ok:

Cheers TBW ... All understood ... I assume he is a 'Regular' (non Mil Pilot) OF-4 then ?

Hardly a typical Vigilant Jock ! - I thought 6 AEF had a waiting list ? Probably count the number of VGS trainees on fingers of your hand ! - most places already spoken for.

Coff

He's a really top bloke and so my post is not a dig at him personally. I don't want to say anything other than you can find on the open internet, however, I'm not surprised he found the conversion quite straight forward!!!

Taken from: engine failure after take off

The B Word

TBW ... Perfectly understood old chap ... He's clearly at the 'Top End' of the new Tutor AEF Pilot criteria ... The VGS Wings/Rank confused :ok:

Is he a regular Wg Cdr then ??

Arc

I think he may have been an ENGO Arc but not 100% sure and happy to be corrected.

rgds LR

It is not the normal PPRuNe protocol to discuss serving officers in the manner that some posters have on this thread.

:(

What about discussing serving Airmen? Plenty of those scattered throughout the ATC. In my school we had other ranks from both the Army and RAF trained up from non flying to "C" cat and beyond. In fact, one Army ground trade Cpl. (not AAC) is now flying (AFAIR) Apache helicopters. (At first he was a bit taken aback, when one of our staff, a serving SO, uttered those famous words "call me Dave")

Well said Beagle. Wish some people would take note.......

Procurement
 

Sorry Tuc - poor choice of phrase from me when I said that I meant the overall process rather than a person or department.

It just seems we always make the same mistakes rather than be commercially aware and apply the purchasing power the MOD / RAF has.

Given the sad story of Air Cadet Gliding recorded on these pages ... It was somewhat nostalgic for me this week (Wed) when Mrs Coff and I stopped off at the East Sussex Gliding Club to watch a spot of 'traditional' cable launch and recovery gliding ... took me right back to my teenage years ;)

Just thought I'd share the pics of the airfield at Ringmer ... a beautiful setting.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...psz3jbeqti.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...pst5pdsdlg.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...pski7l4pgh.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...psngpzdkhx.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...psc1w7aerv.jpg

Hope you enjoy :ok:

I can almost hear the whistling of the winch wire!

Coff

But did you get your feet off the ground?

For some time when I put Air Cadet gliding behind me I was like you, peering over the fence at various gliding sites and thinking about those halcyon days of MkIIIs and Sedburghs!

Then last year I did something positive and joined the Southdown Gliding Club at Parham (sister club to Ringmer). Now I do it and don't dream about it any more :D

Come along and have a flight along the beautiful South Downs sometime. You will be made most welcome.

Like other forumites I get very angry that this fabulous sport has been denied to hundreds of willing Air Cadets, volunteer officers and civilian instructors since this debacle started - and continues........

Never seen a Ka-13 with a nose wheel before.

I gave up instructing with the ATC just before the glass ships came in, blimey, that was a long time ago. Like everyone on this thread I'm disgusted with the way things have gone but as a former squadron commander, I could see the AIR going out of the cadet organisation from a long way back.

Freda ...

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. The last time I logged P1 was Sep 1997 flying a Tiger Moth ... soon after that I lost my medical cat (including gliding) ... so I have to be content watching these days :(

However, I did look up the glider I did my first solo on way back in Sep 1973, at RAF Manston with 617 VGS ... that being XN246.

Now I feel old knowing XN246 is a museum exhibit !!!

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...z/SN200597.jpg

Best ...

Coff.

Just had a letter from my MP with a copy of his reply from the minister, same waffle repeated again ,pushing "simulators" as flying !

XN 246 'Museum Exhibit'
 

COFF Methinks XN 246 could be brought back on-line rather sooner that the Vikings and actually start to get Cadets off solo again in a sensible no of launches. 3 Solo's of course just as it should be,and a proper BGA A&B Cert/badge to go with it, plus that nice letter from some revered aviation bod suggesting that the holder of the cert would appreciate help from anyone in a position to give it.I think mine was signed by Lord Brab. (well stamped anyway).

Pobjoy ...

You are probably right in getting XN246 airworthy in short order :ok:

Ruc ...

Hold the faith old chap ... I'm stil waiting for the Minister to reply to my MP regarding my very specific question. I'm also prepared for Round 2 if his reply contains BS. My MP is an former Barrister and quite sharp ...

Best ...

Coff.

XN 246
 

Coff I do not really recall any major issues with the MK111 other than after CFS came on the scene and decided that they needed an 'intercom' with expensive headsets for proper communication.
On the basis that the average airborne time was 2-4 minutes depending on the exercise i am at a loss to know what sort of 'conversation' was to be undertaken. I think the 'Mod' cost more than the original airframe and needless to say was a complete waste of time,but at least looked better than those silly plastic goggles that came later,and of course were never designed for aviation use only for grinding. The final straw of course was when the NAFFI closed.

Pobjoy,intercom in a Mark 111? your kidding! A bit like Children's Aid idiots at a local airfield, they tried to prosecute one of our pilots for teaching his son aerobatics without wearing a "Bone Dome", we pointed out to them that if a Pitts S2 went straight in that a Bone Dome would only ensure that the grey stuff would be easier to scoop up, then they wanted to lay charges for "endangering the life of a minor", under health and safety the whole world will, given time, grind to a halt. Never do I recall not being able to hear the back seat in any glider, mind you this could be that my instructors had to yell at me more than most students needed!