On a more positive note, I hear that Viggi No 3 is now airworthy. I'm also hearing that a Viking might be airworthy by the end of the month. If that is the case then I do believe the end of the tunnel may be swinging into view...:ok:

LJ

It is hoped to get 200 cadets flown in gliders at the Aerospace camp at Syerston next month :D

Good, that only leaves 45,800.:sad:

Liability?
 

i have not followed this string closely because I stopped flying ATC cadets in Chipmunks many years ago but do have an interest because I now fly Gliders

Gliding clubs operate under a set of rules which will seem strange to jet operators but they have continued to provide safe machines for many years. My own club has experienced one fatal in thirty five years and that was non technical. Many of the Venture staff will be of that ilk. It would be all to easy to slip into gliding club mode

So far as I can tell the big problem at the base of all this delay has been the need to correctly address liability. Taking youngsters flying in what look like military aircraft had gradually become a serious worry for the top echelon and rightly so.

We owe an obvious duty of care to these kids and the service repute is very much at stake if we fail in that duty. I think I recall an awful stink when a Chippy hit the hangar at St Athan and a similar attitude when the boss of an midlands AEF stood a Chippy on its nose because the wind was obviously out of limits.

Picture the headlines if even a minor incident revealed an RAF engineering failure. One of the oft overlooked problems with outsourcing is that the parent organisation is grabbed by liability for the actions of an agent and the public will not accept "it was them guv"

We should applaud them at the top for having the wit to see the bigger long term risk and resist the temptation to see AEF/Gliding as an extension of civil gliding clubs

And indeed are - in law - military aircraft....... the gliders don't even have a "covert" civil reg like the Tutors do.

"I'm also hearing that a Viking might be airworthy by the end of the month."

Anyone know if they finally managed to get one airborne? My ATC contacts say not yet.

I was amazed the other day to hear cadets from Fife talking about how much flying they have had of late: one, who only joined in April this year, was on his third Tutor flight (he said that his father was ATC staff which may have helped...) and another, who was 15, was enjoying his fifth trip at his fourth airfield (adding Cosford to Leuchars, Benson and Cranwell!). Every cadet I spoke to that day had flown in Tutors at least twice before, in stark contrast to the more local cadets who are usually first timers. Great that some cadets are getting so much, and it gives the lie to the doom merchants' claims that cadet flying is a thing of the past...

That's fantastic news Torque - I'm very glad to hear that some cadets are flying Tutors. But the reason I originally came on here was to discuss the Viking grounding. Towards the end of last month there was speculation that they were going to get some Vikings airworthy by early August.

Its now mid-August.

Does anyone know if there are any Vikings airworthy? Anyone?

Not yet.

Rumour is that they have a found quite a few issues in the first batch being done by the civvy gliding servicing company. I don't know the exact issues encountered but it does seem to vindicate OC 2FTS's decision - if a seperate and independent organisation is finding issues then I would offer that he was right all along? :cool:

Pontificating the 'ins and outs' of why, doesn't really do any good. I would suggest we leave them to it and wait for some good news.

I also hear that the Tutor AEFs have been taking up strain - great news, but the VGSs offer the capacity if the Cadet Organisation is to grow in accordance with the Government direction.

LJ

It rather depends on the AEF. 5 AEF moved from Wyton to Wittering almost a year ago yet nobody thought about the lack of ATC cover at W/Es.

Result? No flying on the very days when ATC Cadets are available to go flying (unlike CCF Cadets or Annual Camps).


You couldn't make it up.

Not only that, but the other flying activity (RAFGSA) was punted out of Wittering because of issues with two operating entities at the weekend.... :ugh:

Where did the GSA go then; and I cannot believe that no one thought about ATC and probably fire cover. Basic IOT planning exercise or what?

Or it was thought of but there weren't enough ATC staff at Wittering to introduce 7-day cover. Is there a plan to remedy this or will Wittering remain weekday only TFN?

Four Counties was closed down and it's membership and fleet have either re-allocated to another GSA club or been sold off.

Weren't the VGS at Syerston using one of Four Counties' K21's for instructor training whilst the Vikings are out?

That must be the biggest indignity - having originally been booted out of Syerston because of VGS politics only to have the VGS using their gliders because they're homeless.


7700

The RAFGSA is currently leasing (at cost) an ASK-21 to the Central Gliding School for instructor training and currency. The RAFGSA is also undertaking a number of air cadet gliding scholarships at RAFGSA clubs ( paid for by HQ Air Cadets - at cost) in order to help keep air cadet gliding viable and to help with the regeneration of VGS. Some VGS instructors have also joined the RAFGSA to maintain currency.

It's the summer camp period so no doubt the AEF Tutors are being made available at many stations hosting camps.

Very busy with Air Cadets at RAF Odiham at the moment and the kids appear to be getting plenty of trips in Chinooks, which is good practice for when they join the Army... :E

On a different note, none of the VR(T) Officers that I met in the Mess while staying there for a couple of nights myself, appeared to be under the age of 50.

I was kicked out of the VR(T) when I was 50! (after 36 years service as cadet and adult staff) My wingco decided I wasn't attending the squadron often enough, I was Wing Gliding Liaison Officer (went to the VGS most weekends) and worked shifts but he wouldn't listen.
It seemed to me then (late 90s) that the policy was get rid of the old lags like me and appoint younger ex-cadets as squadron officers.

Not good on many levels... Clearly, in the intervening 25 years, the younger officers have now become the old lags. I'm not a fan of ex-cadets becoming adult staff in their old sub-unit/unit. Out of interest, why does the RAF no longer permit duel-commissioning i.e. RAuxAF/RAFVR(T) and the Army still does (a very good friend of mine is a Maj AR(Gp A) and a Lt AR(Gp B).

Don't know about dual commissions but as a VR(T) chap I can say that there is an extreme lack of uniformed staff, especially ex-military for which there is a definite role.

PS. Benson AEF is short of pilots. :{

Not being a pilot, I can't help you out at RAF Benson... Are ex-AAC Pilots encouraged to join AEF's?

I am just about to start at HQ 3 Div as an AR SO2 in what will probably be my last tour... I am seriously toying with the idea of joining the Cadets as adult staff afterwards, although coming from a Tech background (R Signals), I would probably prefer the Air Cadets...

Don't know about AEFS but on our local VGS recently we have had one RN Lt Commander, one former AAC Major now promoted to Lt Col and two AAC Sgts, had to be the highest ranking VGS staff in the Corps :O

RB - I think the irony is lost on you (but probably not for 4C's members).


7700

Which is exactly how it should be; if either of my children were to join the Air Cadets then I would want them instructed in the air by fully-qualified military pilots...

Chevvron - they carry you out in a box now; 'retirement age' has been raised to 65 yrs, from 55; and you can get 1 yr extension after that!

Cows Getting Bigger:

Benson AEF has plenty of short pilots..the boss is vertically challenged for a start!:}

I'll get my coat!

At the gliding school (pre VGS) where I was on the staff - the only serious accident we had (stall/spin from winch launch cable break) was being flown by a 'fully qualified' ex RAF pilot... just being an ex military pilot does not guarantee safety.
The ATC gliding schools have always had a high proportion of very talented instructors - the majority without a military flying background.
I know some 'professional' pilots with an 'amateur' attitude but conversely I know some 'amateur' pilots with a 'professional' attitude.

7700

I don't want to start a debate, but let's just say that you are a bit wide of the mark on that one;)

A difference of opinion and interpretation......


7700

I was speaking with a colleague still in the Air Cadet world. It would appear that it is most likely that my old VGS staff will start home based SCT sometime in the summer - next summer!! From there, gliding courses to start sometime in 2017.

Note the continued use of sometime. I think that for a lot of VGS's, there will be severe problems in retaining staff. Certainly a lot of adult staff will have found that that they can do the week-end overtime the boss keeps putting their way and that Mrs (or Mr) adult staff likes the extra money coming in/ the wee jobs that that are getting done that used to take forever/the picnic on a sunny Saturday or Sunday that used to be out of the question.

Staff cadets have, I suspect, re-ignited their week-end daytime interest in the other gender and - finally - I believe that under the current risk averse (thats a risk to some SO's career ladder) atmosphere that appears to be prevalent at higher levels within the RAF and ATC, the paperwork trail will be long and tortuous and too much of a total faff to be wort the effort. The V in VGS stands for Volunteer and I think that some of those in the higher echelons forget this.

Might I suggest that, as posted on a roof by the RAF POWs in Tengah POW camp awaiting release after the relief of Singapore, senior staff " Extract Digit"

ACW, you forgot one lot. Those that were using the VGS's as their own private flying club. Not so prevalent in the conventional fleet but (back a few years ago) fairly common on the Vigi fleet.

That being said the organisation has almost a clean sheet to start again with. So hopefully, as you say those who can be bothered to make the effort or have stuck with the organisation can re-build successfully.

FB - hope you are correct but speaking to a couple of VGS pilots it appears that certainly the one our local unit uses has lost a significant number of instructors during the "pause" to operations. Before they can start flying cadets they will have to make up that deficit and get everybody current again.
A sad state of affairs and one that could have easily been avoided methinks.

Brokenlink, do tell how this might have been "easily" avoidable?

"It would appear that it is most likely that my old VGS staff will start home based SCT sometime in the summer - next summer!! From there, gliding courses to start sometime in 2017."

2017!

If true, that will be three years since the grounding, and takes the use of the word 'pause' to an entirely new level!

ChitterneFlyer

I was thinking the same thing.:D These aircraft were not and most still are not airworthy. I hear that the repairs at the well-recognised civil glider maintenance facility have been far slower than expected due to the number of issues they have also found.

So the only way I could see this being "easily avoided" was about 20-odd years ago when the maintenance regime started to fail. I still believe that OC 2FTS and his team made exactly the right decision to 'pause'; although I do think this should be upgraded to 'grounded' now!

LJ

LJ - That was the point I was trying to make, if you take an in house service and privatise it the overriding concern of the supplier is to turn a profit which can be at the expense of the output especially when the main variable is staff and they either get cut or their salary is reduced which can cause problems if people don't feel valued.

Regards.
BL

LJ and brokenlink

Not just the contractors: my understanding is that some of the "issues" go back to "blue suited engineers" days.

TTH - You may well be correct but having seen some of the effects of hiving of the work to the private sector I can well believe that any existing issues were simply magnified.

TTH

You may be right, but just how incentivised the 'blue suiters' would have been on the hand over to contractors may be a factor?

Anyway, I still don't think 'easily avoided' is accurate.

Just an opinion, though...:O