That's a shame. I would be happy to fly for an AEF. I have many thousands of hours, I fly (and have displayed) aerobatic and military types and I'm an instructor in current practice. I've never been a QSP though.

I may be wrong but I thought that civilian instructors with no previous military experience instruct in the Grobs used for Pilot Grading, I have known two. Why should similarly qualified and experienced instructors not be allowed to fly for AEF?

I have a full time job so would consider it on a volunteer basis. I was under the impression the flying grading was a full time position.

Coffman

I admire your honesty and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I believe the AEFs has largely been seen as a club for ex regular QSPs. Nothing wrong with that and full respect to the chaps giving up their time to fly cadets. However, it begs the question since we now have a surplus of highly experienced VGS instructors who were qualified on a similar type then it should be straight forward to convert them.

Also, is there any reason why former CGIs and/or NCO pilots could not fly the Tutor? From a purely flying standards point of view there is no reason but they're not "chaps" are they? OC 2 FTS is well known for his dislike of civilians and presumably that extends to non commissioned riff raff.

Leaving aside the AEF issue the thing that really grates about the official announcement is the blatant spin involved. They're "putting lip stick on a pig" IMHO. The Air Cadets are having a huge reduction in flying TRAINING as opposed to air experience. To pretend otherwise is counter productive. By all means look at the glass as half full but it's still a very sad time for the ACO as a whole.

As to how this episode was handled and the way the VGS staff have been kept in the dark....don't get me started!:ugh:

Mushers

Another issue perhaps worth thinking about is the blanket ban on those over 65. Surely what matters is actual medical condition rather than biological age?

There are many who are well into their 70s and fly far more demanding aircraft than those operated by the ACO. I converted a lady of 83 on to a Tecnam a few months ago with not the slightest difficulty and one of my current students is 77 and as sharp as a tack. Our club CFI is 74, is well known in aerobatic circles and displays an Extra and a Firefly.

I don't know quite how you can be an A2* VGS exec one day and judged decrepit the next, especially if you have and can retain a Class 2 medical. The CAA seems to be considerably more enlightened in this respect than the RAF.

Westminster Hall Debate 13 April
 

Upcoming Business - Commons: Westminster Hall (13 Apr 2016) https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.theyworkforyou.com_calendar_-3Fd-3D2016-2D04-2D13-23cal8892&d=AwIDAw&c=axaOw2qHyp7zEDNbTjpgYA&r=YYRyvoC1zD9GLk V3p5YPZRhvmWWc20ZYR6IuvB6a8-8&m=dZ4HOe7psZkCqzHeOgkwVrfbCi_SUapLYXuleQGToLE&s=D61Z6kGN6k YWiLzhu-kW6TRAJySO9PGcPg_xqZhu1Uc&e=
Future of gliding and the *Air Cadet* Organisation - Angela Watkinson.
*Westminster Hall debate; 11:00 am - 11:30 am*

Future for CGIs?
 

Can someone confirm something for me? I am a CGI with one of the Squadrons that isn't to be disbanded, but have not recieved anything other than the Ministerial statement through our Squadron Boss. I understand that we were going to be written to individually, with options laid out; (although that may have already happened for the unfortunate Vigilant staff who are the priority).

So I have heard that the position of CGI will no longer exist, but don't know if this is true or exactly what it could mean? Does anyone know more, or if the intention is that CGIs would have to join the ATC/RAF VRT in some capacity or does it mean CGIs are now out of a job?

Any info appreciated :confused:
Flug

You should have got the same letter from 2fts and CAC as everyone else. CGI'S will be phased out with transfer over to ATC SNCOs complete by 2020 so no massive rush. Any new starters will go direct to snco from a date (not yet promulgated) but soon.

There will be limited staff numbers related to the squadron aircraft establishment though.

Thanks Tingger! I have been out of the country for a week so the letter may be sitting at home.

Flug

ATFQ ...

Here is a working link showing Westminster Hall Business ... Your Post 2005 refers.

Westminster Hall Business

... Just trying to help :ok:

Well, allow me to be the first to don my tin hat and raise the next obvious issue...

Everybody knows that a good portion of VGSs are full of experienced CGIs who would rather just leave than wear uniform. This is by no means a judgment either way on whether I believe that they should be required to, but I think it's worth saying.

I read this thread with incredulity. Gliding and AE Flying are the hallmarks ofthe ATC, what marks it out from the other Cadet Corps. How could HQ AC allow the cessation ofgliding? There is no defence in arguing “civilianization”or whatever: contracts have to be managed actively, and if “civilianization” isthe cause of poor maintenance God help the frontline RAF!
In the present economic climate, I could understand areduction in AEF hours, but gliding, with volunteer instructors …. ….. !
As to restricting AEF flying to Service pilots, it hasprobably got something to Crown immunity. Even retired regular “full-brevet” officer AEF pilots hold commissionsin the RAFRO. As to age of retirement,as an aged PPL, I regularly fly my Air Cadet grandson, and would be happy forhim to be flown by another pilot of my age (and temperament) who holds a Class2 medical.

Already lots of non RAF pilot ex civvies and ex VGS flying AEF apparently, chatted to one doing some stuff at my civvy school only last week.

Will be interesting to see how they convert these Viggie guys and girls. Those that haven't done a Ppl etc in their own time aren't anywhere near even PPL standard on light aircraft. They never done - spinning, Aeros, navigation, used nav aid kit, diversions, power approaches, used flaps LOI, busy RT, used power during stalk recoveries etc. All the ground school they've ever done was glider stuff as well so will they have to do proper light aircraft ground school and exams?

For me as a civvy to do trial lessons with Aeros I would have to be a CPL/FI with Aeros course and test done. Can't see how a Viggie guy would be same safety standard without loads of training and tests. Good luck to them though they are all great people

Important - Debate - 13 April
 

It's worth making sure that your MP, if he or she has shown an interest, is made aware of the Westminster Hall debate on 13 April. It is in the detail of the order of business for the day and could easily be overlooked at a glance. I am sure that we would like any interested MPs to be able to hear from the Minister and to be able to ask him questions.

Thinking about it, the NPPL legal stuff gives Viggie guys cross credits for light aircraft and they have to do about minimum 10hours, pass all PPL ground exams and pass the nav and flying skills tests, that's without Aeros and spins. So that would be a start as its already sorted out what they do as minimum for civvy flying. They looked at vig when prop dropped off the Tutor for training new pilots apparently but loads of stuff it couldn't do so they will have that study they can use to see what Viggie guys need to learn I guess.

OK I'll bite.
Have you ever flown a Vigilant? If you had you'll notice it has a tailwheel and a three position prop, both of which require a PPL to do differences training to use. Most VGS instructors will have been transit qualified having been trained to navigate the RAF way, Dead Rekoning with chart, compass and stopwatch. Who needs nav aids?
How many PPL practice a Forced Landing every time they land? How many PPL would mess their pants if the engine stopped in flight? Vigilant instructors did it for training and for fun, especially if their passenger was a PPL or best of all a helicopter pilot.
I had 1800 hours on Air Cadet motor gliders when I went for a PPL, it was also the first time I had ever used a nosewheel undercarriage, can't see why people think they're better. As for ground school I just sat and passed the exams and then walked away blaming the Air Cadets.
Conversion from Vigilant to Tutor shouldn't be a problem, although I fear the Sliver Winged Master race will make it such.

How many hours did it take to get your PPL then?

>If you had you'll notice it has a tailwheel and a three position prop, both of which require a PPL to do differences training to use<

Just for the record, the Vigilant does not have a true VP propeller; it has a three-position fixed-pitch prop, of which one position is feathered. Differences training is certainly required for someone from a Vigilant background converting on to an SEP aircraft with a VP propeller.

I also wouldn't sign anyone off for tailwheel differences training on the basis of having flown a Vigilant since the takeoff technique is not representative of a true taildragger.

Notwithstanding all the other issues that those far more expert than me have commented on, I think the move to a uniformed cadre may prove a challenge. I believe there are issues with recruiting sufficient uniformed staff generally within the ACO, let alone into a specialism such as aircrew...

unbelievable
 

I've followed this thread for some time and reading all the posts these decisions make me quite angry in the fact that the restructure will take even more flying away from young Air Cadets that are interested in flying and Gliding.

I have served my local VGS for over 15 years as a civillian and it's been brilliant and enjoyed teaching young buzzing Air Cadets.

Quite frankly many of us guys are not impressed by the no thanks for the service we have received and to be blunt senior 2 FTS 'chaps' can shove it, I'll take my skills elsewhere thank you.

OK

I'm now wearing the biggest tin hat stores could provide.

Having read the posts on this thread (and agreeing with 99% of them), has it never occurred to the posters that the UK cannot afford a 'real' Royal Air Force any more.

Therefore, how can the UK afford an Air Cadet Organisation?

Where is MoD (taxpayer) money best spent? Surely the Front Line.

Ah, but the idea is more cadets = less antisocial behaviour = save money on police/social services. And cadets are better motivated at school, too.

I'm not entirely convinced it's cause and effect ('good' kids join cadet organisations) but there is a logic.

But - one suspects non-flying cadets are cheaper and would still achieve the aim.

TaxyDual

Funding for the ATC (Cadet forces generally) is pretty small - probably lost in the 'roundings' of the Accountants frankly compared to the overall defence budget.

Cost savings against 'non-vandalism' and associated 'kids hanging on street corners' are supposedly huge. So much so that not so long ago, the Home Office was considering funding the Cadet Forces when MoD whinged about budget cuts................

I think the term was that Cadets were not just military but part of the 'Fabric Of Society'..................(Blah, Blah, Blah) - maybe Dave Cameron should be advised that a big bit of his 'Big Society' just got chopped off.............I'm sure he'd care and get involved <<Yeah, right>>

Arc

OK


Absolutely spot on Taxydual - but the trouble is these cuts have been happening under the pretext of a 'safety pause',I think many people would have more respect for the Brass if they had been upfront about the real agendas.


rgds LR
http://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif

Getting rid of CGI's is what one would expect when the boss has no time for volunteers - presumably he hates civvy volunteers even more than uniformed volunteers !
Is this also the thin end of the wedge and serve as an early warning for CI's on ATC Squadrons ?

A few years ago my opinion was that avoiding the worst examples of waste, much of it entirely conscious, would generate more money than the MoD could reasonably spend. But the savagery of the cuts in recent years, coupled with (e.g.) the rundown of irreplaceable corporate knowledge, has changed my view a little, as the balance has shifted. That said, MoD still pours astronomical sums down the drain every day.

Last week we saw unseemly arguments in Parliament over the Budget, and the "need" to find £4.3Bn savings from the welfare pot. Coincidentally, more or less the sum wasted on Nimrod MRA4. An idea emerges....

Don't worry about the RAF, the experiment finishes in two years next Friday :E

MOD Wethersfield (Home of 614 VGS) to Close
 

Defence Estate Rationalisation Written Statement HCWS659, 24 March 2016:

MOD Wethersfield, home of 614 VGS, due to transfer to Homes and Communities Agency by 2020. Future location for 614 VGS yet to be identified.

Money well spent
 

The 'Civilian' element of the ACO has always been its 'jewel' in that it provided a cadre of capable adult staff at very little cost to the tax payer.
Whether in the Cadet Squadrons or the Gliding operations the civilian element was nigh on cost free.
As for the provision of a Cadet service at all, this has be balanced against the unseen advantages of providing an organisation that allows youngsters to engage in self developing activities with just enough discipline to keep it safe yet not stifle the normal enthusiasm for adventure. What the ACO 'had' in its Gliding set up was an organisation that provided a unique extra level of self development that was available to anyone who wished to participate without a financial limitation.
Where the ATC has gone astray is in its 'paid for' back up providers who have failed to provide a service yet the money has been spent.
There is also a big question mark hanging over the capability level of those that should have been overseeing this and then dealing with the problem that ensued. The Cadets that passed through the system took with them skills and a level of self development that equipped them for adult life and repaid that earlier investment many times over.
At the end of the day the civilian element of the ACO can holds its head up high; it never failed the Cadets and has a proud tradition of capability and service.

Oh dear, there were rumblings years ago about this. Bang goes East Anglia I guess, not too many cadets in that area luckily...

Errr...weren't they supposed to cover London in the future plans....

Homes and communities agency
 

Ok so what does this agency need all the 'Airfield' bit for.
There are plenty of useful buildings on the north side that can easily accommodate a glider operation,and plenty of space for 'launching'.
Does anyone ever look how civvy clubs manage on quite 'tiny' sites.
Does anyone at the top of the 'system' have any idea how 'operations' operate in the real world.

From the same Written statement - also included is Clive Barracks, Tern Hill... Isn't that another VGS site or is it purely the army barracks?

Is it me or is there something going on that I do not understand. When I was a boy the country was struggling after the war yet we ran a large military a large police force with a policeman on every corner, a large NHS that never seemed to have any of the current problems and a civil service that was admired worldwide. Nowadays the country is richer than it has ever been and nothing seems to be affordable; the treasury cuts, sells and saves at every opportunity and the Air Cadets seems to be caught up in the mindset that savings need to be made at every opportunity.

Probably for the 4850 homes they are to build on it

Wrt the NHS, medicine is far far more sophisticated and therefore expensive than 70 years ago. Expectations have increased as well, and we live longer.

Ah TMM, I believe your background and experience is with the CCF which is prevalent in upper education and public schools, so perhaps you haven't seen the whole range of student (dis)engagement.

We had an amazing relationship with our nearest school - we used their facilities and our staff supported their DEA activities very regularly. Some of their staff visited our Sqn during routine activities and were amazed to bump into one of their "problem pupils", standing to attention and to one side to allow them down a corridor. They were really surprised as this was someone they had been in despair of in school.

The impact of open cadet units on the general teenage population should not be underestimated.

With respect to tiny sites, the area that 617 used at Manston was considered very small and was out of the way of the main runway, so history suggests it doesn't need to be a logical and thought out decision.
617 VGS left Manston donkeys' years ago and has been homeless since, the section of airfield they used is still there and there is still a military presence with the Fire School maintained - therefore MT and domestic facilities could be there too. In terms of basic resources, there is no obvious reason why they didn't maintain 617 there. If it hadn't been located on Thanet, it would have made a great hub for ACO activities but there again I did my GS there so I'm probably a bit biased.

In those days things were a lot cheaper - we certainly weren't paying millions per Lightning let alone for our other cold war inventory assets. The other thing we didn't have was a 20% income tax rate. Most people have been quite happy to receive a tax cut in most budgets over the last decade or so, but few realise that reduced contributions mean less in the pot to pay for public services such as the NHS, the Police and the Forces.

Weathersfield !!
 

Ok 4850 homes = lots of youngsters to feed a 'facility'.
Ideal to have an 'Adventure' facility on part of the site to keep those youngsters active in something that will serve them for future life.
I suspect the Homes and Com agency would be pleased to support that,and remember the Prime Minister was trying to encourage 'school' cadet squadrons.
Is that too much out of the box to consider.
Why is it that so many service establishments and the housing fall into disrepair rather than get recycled into ready made work and live places.
RAF Kenley has a civilian club that operates during the week on a fraction of the whole airfield,which itself is only small compared with many sites.
As for 'Army' (former airfield sites) well they have an Air Corps so what is the problem with a joint venture Cadet corps operating from them,or is it a 'political' impasse with the services,that needs a bit of head knocking.