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Actually Teeters
They do have Shadow BGA numbers................. so a G Reg move would be fairly easy. Not that it's going to happen of course............... Arc |
Thanks ARC - that'll teach me to believe what "some bloke told me in a bar!" :ok:
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you have to be in uniform apparently to fly military aircraft |
That is a good point.
When on duty VGS CGI's are actually Civil Servants................. Arc |
KISS
I was always told to keep it simple (KISS).
The obvious solution (which has been thrown out by the VSOs) is is to put them (the Vikings) on the civil register. Would solve most of the obstacles currently being put up. But there, what do any of us know about it😂 |
Cause & Effect
If the cause of the so called pause was because of poor workmanship, improper maintenance & repairs and loss of the appropriate documentation by the employees of the contractor and sub contractor(s) with the effect that the aircraft were deemed to be (and in some cases were) not airworthy and required a lengthy and costly investigation into such, and which is requiring an equally lengthy and costly recovery operation, should then the fees paid for such improper work done be not recovered from the contractor (s) and be paid back into the ACO budget?
Furthermore, as the lengthy and costly recovery operation is as a direct result of the said poor workmanship, improper maintenance & repairs and loss of the appropriate documentation by the employees of the contractor and sub contractor(s), should not then the contractors be responsible for the cost of the recovery operation rather than be paid for out of the ACO budget? :confused: |
Cause and effect
I suspect the original contract and its requirements will not be as 'robust' to the point that compensation is an option;plus the other question to be covered is why it took so long for the problem to surface. There seems to be a complete lack of 'oversight' on the part of the RAF/MOD who in the end are responsible for delivering a service to the ACO; which has been funded, and paid for yet no service provided. I do not imagine the VSO's will be keen to have an in depth investigation as to why they have allowed this situation to develop.
No doubt a cleaner somewhere will go to the stake. |
Pobjoy,
As I said in post 2198:- What I'd like to know is what the SO1 & SO2 Engineering, Quality Audit and Contract Management posts and Soaring (Oxford) at Syerston were doing prior to 'the pause'. As I understand it from a previous 2FTS statement, one of those from the above is overseeing 'the recovery' - as he was in post at least a year before'the pause', what was he doing? 7700 |
Squawking 7700
I don't know what he was doing for the year before - or what he did in the 2 years since................. I can tell you that what he is doing now: Covering his Ar$e like crazy. I bet the shredder is working overtime................. Arc |
Arc,
No shredder required.......as nothing's been documented anyway!!!! 7700 |
Taxpayer and ACO Budget protection
[QUOTE=ACW342;9337348]If the cause of the so called pause was because of poor workmanship, improper maintenance & repairs and loss of the appropriate documentation by the employees of the contractor and sub contractor(s) with the effect that the aircraft were deemed to be (and in some cases were) not airworthy and required a lengthy and costly investigation into such, and which is requiring an equally lengthy and costly recovery operation, should then the fees paid for such improper work done be not recovered from the contractor (s) and be paid back into the ACO budget?
Furthermore, as the lengthy and costly recovery operation is as a direct result of the said poor workmanship, improper maintenance & repairs and loss of the appropriate documentation by the employees of the contractor and sub contractor(s), should not then the contractors be responsible for the cost of the recovery operation rather than be paid for out of the ACO budget? :confused:[/QUOTE I'm pleased to see ACW342 and POBJOY and others mentioning the unmentionable !. I have just written to my MP enclosing a list of FOI questions with regard to the extremely lax proceedings where negligence may have taken place under a contractual matter. Not only that, there is the little matter of who were the RAF supervisors of the ACO/RAF Fleet of Grob Viking and Vigilant A/C both before and after the problematic civilian contract ? Usually I get a 24 hr response from my MP, but thus far it's Radio silence !! Legally, if Her Majesty's Government is/was aware that they may have a legal case, then the "clock" starts to run from the "Date of Knowledge", ( i.e., when the injured party first becomes aware of a legal issue or breach of contract) for the statutory period ( 6 years) before the case becomes statute barred, and after which, unless extension time is sought and approved by the Courts, no further action can be taken. As for the Officers allegedly supervising the said contract(s), then that too should be a matter for service discipline rather than silently stealing away or obtaining further promotion. Civilian contracts STILL require supervision and quality management, despite some of our current Government thinking that sub-contractors solve all problems ! Perhaps it works like politics where you merely move on quietly, get a gong and retire very comfortably. It may well suit certain parties that the "limitation clock" is allowed to tick away un-noticed, but it is for all of us, the Taxpayers, to ensure that it is not ignored. Come on Mr Cameron , take a moment or two off Panama and EU Brexit issues, and spend a moment or two asking your Defence Ministry what on earth has been going on ! |
Ref ACO SNCO/WO pilots and instructors- they're still civilians, not subject to military law. The only way staff would benefit would be that they could claim pay when they're on courses.
Also, I can't imagine there would be enough demand for the ACO's Adult Training Facility to design and host bespoke courses for them. I would then presume that they'd be sent on the SSIC, which would be almost entirely useless to them. |
Delay again
Article in Sunday Telegraph says delay caused by inability to find suitable contractor to do the work. Carefully avoids why the work is needed
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Article in Sunday Telegraph
Tinribs Suggest you use this article as a good reason to e-mail the writer and inform him/her of the 'reasons'. I have done this twice now to other papers.
The 'Pen'/ E-mail is still a powerful tool. |
Sunday Telegraph
Tin Ribs, can you give me the name of the journalist, I think i might forward my email to the three First Ministers of the devolved governments (Yes, for those who wish to point it out, I am aware that defence is not a devolved matter)
Thanks A342 |
EnigmaAviation:-
Come on Mr Cameron , take a moment or two off Panama and EU Brexit issues, and spend a moment or two asking your Defence Ministry what on earth has been going on ! https://sites.google.com/site/militaryairworthiness/ I'm afraid that ACO gliders are the least of the ramifications of the sabotage by VSOs that has been the subject of a cover up ever since it was perpetrated. The entire UK military air fleet is riddled with unairworthiness as a consequence, and the organisation responsible for sorting that out cannot face up to it as it is subject to the same cover up enforced at the highest levels. So let's lynch a Group Captain or two instead to placate the mob. That should at least make us all feel better even if it achieves nothing else... |
Scottish PFI Schools Closed
Is it me, or are there any parallels to be drawn between the Air Cadet Gliding debacle and this?
"However, we must also question how such significant defaults could escape normal building control scrutiny and we believe it is now necessary for an urgent review of all PPP/PFI contracts, including the terms of the private maintenance contracts which are often both expensive and extremely restrictive." Edinburgh Schools Partnership (ESP), which operates the schools apologised and said the partnership would accept "full financial responsibility". |
Frelon:-
are there any parallels to be drawn between the Air Cadet Gliding debacle and this? |
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30 minutes to save the world..................
Talk is cheap, money buys the beer................. not expecting any money........ Arc |
I can't comment on the accuracy of the alleged failings by contractors, but I do know that many similar cases in the past have resulted in MoD taking no action and swallowing the cost, even after fatal accidents. The contractor has a ready-made defence if it can demonstrate any laxity in MoD's application of their own regulations. The obvious first question is - is there a stable and maintained build standard against which the work is to be conducted? As Chug has alluded to, the chances of this are somewhere south of zero. Ergo, there will be no valid safety case. This is all very familiar.
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Westminster Hall - Anyone had any reports on the debate?
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Air Cadets grounded
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To save anybody from needing to waste time viewing, I think referring to this as a debate might be something of an overstatement. I think it would be much fairer to say that the minister simply re-iterated the statement released a few weeks ago.
Sadly, but I suppose predictably, he didn't specifically address any issues or questions raised since the announcement. He also repeatedly referred to 'simulators', and from his no doubt vast experience, attested on more than one occasion to how realistic they were and that they would form a core part of Cadets' training. I don't think this 'debate' was ever really intended to be much more than an opportunity to say that the issue had been discussed; 30 minutes with non 'subject matter experts' is clearly not going to do anything to reverse any decisions made. |
Air Cadets grounded
Yes. Mostly waffle and no actual debate as far as I could see!
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Airbus38 ...
Totally agree. There was an opportunity at 14 mins, when a 'sharp minded' MP could have asked 'HOW' did the Air Cadet Glider Fleet become UNSERVICEABLE in the first place ... But NO ! The Minister's comments on the 'simulators' (NOT) just proved that he had fallen for the 'pretty lights' show when he recently visited 2FTS :ugh: |
An absolute travesty - debate? it was anything but. Where were the questions from our representatives on how this came about? Who were the culprits? Why has no one been prosecuted? A whitewash.
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Originally Posted by ACW342
(Post 9343246)
An absolute travesty - debate? it was anything but. Where were the questions from our representatives on how this came about? Who were the culprits? Why has no one been prosecuted? A whitewash.
The whole thing is massive cover up and b--------. This Westminster bull****ter was a disgrace. |
ACW342, the Ministers meeting with Jim Shannon could be more interesting , your old boss John McA may be going with him ;)
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My experience with Ministers and MP's (and I have had a quite a bit) is that they believe what they are told. They are not SME's, and quite often they have no knowledge of the Ministry in which they are placed (since George Osborne is neither an Accountant or has ever actually had a proper job - I kid you not).
They have no option but to believe what they are told, and they act accordingly. In a lot of ways the CEO of many large companies are the same. They expect the people under them to be the expert (like they are paid for), be honest and professional in their dealings. In public service supposedly, even more so. In this case that has sadly not been the case. It's quite clear that no-one with knowledge of ACO Gliding or Engineering has really been near the decision making process for this one. Underpinned by weak contract management practice (the MoD was always like that anyway) this was doomed from the start. Personal interests, Personal Agendas and Personalities have all been at work here. I think I can hear the lid being nailed down on this one now to stop the skeletons getting out. Just so sad, and unnecessary. I will of course be putting in a bid for one of the incredibly well maintained Vigilants when they come up for sale if the Personal interests, Personal Agendas and Personalities don't do a TSR2 on them to prevent the evidence from surfacing..................but in world where the Government can sell off the UK Gold reserves below market price or publicly owned bank shares below the value with no questions asked, who would be surprised if a few motorgliders quitely arrived on the fire dump or Shoebury Ranges............... Arc |
Air Cadets continue to be grounded!
Yes. Mostly waffle and no actual debate as far as I could see! |
Following the so called 'Debate' at Westminster Hall yesterday ... I have sent this to my MP today ...
Dear Mr Merriman … I watched carefully the debate held yesterday at Westminster Hall entitled ‘Future of Gliding and the Air Cadet Organisation’ Parliamentlive.tv - Westminster Hall I would have liked to write direct to the Minister, Julian Brazier, but it is clear from his Constituency Web Site that he only replies to correspondence emanating from a Kent Constituency Postal Address. I am therefore writing to you to seek an answer to a very specific question about this issue as my MP. There has, as yet, been no satisfactory explanation as to ‘How and Why’ the entire Air Cadet Glider Fleet (of some 146 aircraft) suddenly became un-airworthy/un-serviceable which necessitated the ‘Grounding’ of the entire fleet for some two years. I’m afraid I don’t have the detail on the original Total CapEx Spend back in the early 90’s for the 81 Grob Viking Gliders and 65 Grob Vigilant Motor Gliders, but I’m informed that the Vikings alone cost c. £7m when acquired some 25 years ago … so in total, for the entire fleet of 146 aircraft, a not insignificant original investment by the MOD/RAF. So as a UK Tax Payer I believe I’m entitled to ask for an explanation as to ‘How and Why’ the entire Air Cadet Gliding Fleet became un-airworthy/un-serviceable. I’m aware from Hansard that Serco was awarded a ‘Glider Maintenance Contract’ of £9.4m for a seven year period from Feb 2008 to Mar 2015. Without prejudice I ask … Did the contractor fail to provide the service they were contracted to supply, either through poor engineering practice or record keeping ? Did the MOD/RAF fail to effectively ‘Supervise’ and/or ‘Oversee’ the contractors work ? Or was it a combination of both these possibilities or were there other reasons ? To be clear, I’m well acquainted with the detail of the proposed current ‘Recovery Programme’ put forward by the MOD/RAF, and whilst these plans are most lamentable, they can detract attention away from the specific question I have asked above. Yours sincerely |
Questions for MP's
Well done CoffmanStarter, my MP has not even responded ! But this is the single most important question that MUST be answered for the benefit of us taxpayers and the totally banjaxed VGS staff.
:ok::ok::ok: |
It seems to me that the only way those in control are going to genuinely listen is if all instructors refuse to volunteer their services. Including those on schools which will remain open. No staff - what are they going to do?
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I liked the suggestion, on CAC's FB page, to grow trees to commemorate the 75th anniversary - could I suggest ash, spruce and balsa - that way at least in 20 years time there'd be enough wood to build a fleet of new gliders.
7700 |
In the meantime the saplings can be sheltered by a screen of glass fibre replicas of trees.
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or tree simulators............................
Arc |
The formal record of the 'debate' on Wednesday of this week at Westminster Hall ...
Hansard : Air Cadet Organisation and Gliding |
Such an in depth debate......
"look at the shiny, shiny" Frankie Boyle quote from Mock the Week seems very apt as they've been seduced by a swish looking PTT. Seems you can learn Ab Initio on a Simulat....sorry PTT. |
Big Carpet Job
ARC has it summed up.
With all the top brass in total denial (and ignorance) who is going to make that 'searching' investigation as to the root cause of the debacle. Ministers know absolutely nothing about the subject and even the VSO's are limited in their knowledge about how the system 'COULD' work. Had we had a 'can do-er' at 2FTS guiding the situation then it may have been possible to have steered a better solution,but as his agenda did not fit in with how the VGS operates then there was no hope that there was ever going to be a rapid return to ops. In fact Cmt2FTS does have a heavy responsibility in all this as he was the point of contact with the VSO's and no doubt has guided them towards the eventual so-called recovery. With such a dismal and incompetent leadership the situation was never going to get better as the very people that held the key to recovery (the VGS) were kept out of the loop because they were not going to fit in with Cmt 2 FTS plans for the future. This sorry individual has seen off a system that was World Class in its ability to actually gets Cadets off solo and allow those that were keen to develop enough to keep the system going. Without LEADERSHIP you have nothing the VGS had it a Squadron level but it failed big time at the next level. The system was simple; it was run by capable Staff Cadets, however it needed someone equally capable up top to oversee it and this is where it has failed big time. |
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