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-   -   Here it comes: Syria (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/513470-here-comes-syria.html)

Heathrow Harry 22nd May 2013 17:19

the rebels have been using the Russian Metis (AT-13 Saxhorn) IIRC

ORAC 22nd May 2013 18:15

Definitely not the Metis-M


500N 22nd May 2013 18:24

I couldn't find anything Russian that looked like it
but that doesn't mean it's not.

It certainly looks close to the Javelin.

Any thoughts from anyone ?

If it is a Javelin, does that mean US Troops might be on the ground
or the US has supplied a few to the rebels ?????

tonker 22nd May 2013 18:46

And now it arrives here..

'Shootings' and 'machete attack' in south east London: live - Telegraph

Lonewolf_50 22nd May 2013 19:02

If it is a Javelin, does that mean US Troops might be on the ground
or the US has supplied a few to the rebels ?????
US troops on the ground fighting for the Assad side?

Not likely. IIRC, that video is a shot of a rebel group in action with a tank.

Various gear of war has been infiltrating into Syria via a few of our allies in the Persian Gulf for the past few years, to support various insurgent factions.

They have plenty of American kit that might get slipped across a border here and there ...

Onceapilot 28th May 2013 12:32

No chance of No fly zone now
Russia will deploy S-300 according to BBC:ouch:.


Ronald Reagan 28th May 2013 13:14

BBC News - EU ends arms embargo on Syria rebels

Its totally insane, giving weapons to terrorists. Its really the UK and France to blame for this, wonder what the real agenda is. The real axis of evil in the world are the UK, France and USA what with all their badly thought out little interventions, actually more like the axis of incompetence.

Lonewolf_50 28th May 2013 14:31

Would the West be doing any of this were the Saudis and a few others not the major suppliers of crude to the industrialized world?

Think back a bit, and ask yourself if the EU and NATO intervention in Bosnia would have happened were the above not an issue? I got a few inklings back in the mid 90's that the Saudis had an influence behind the scene on behalf of the Muslim faction in Bosnia. I do know that Iran had a few hundred Pasdaran in country.

Arming the rebels allows the war to go on longer, which allows more martyrs for the faith and more dead and dying among many and sundry. It also allows for making more refugees who try to flood into Turkey, where they meet a cool reception. They also flood into Jordan, where they may destabilize the government, which is a replay of what led to Black September back in 1970. Keeping the fighting going seems, on the face of it, a way to spread the instability into neighboring countries. Is that what UK and France want?

Here's an out of the box idea; stop the refugee flow. You have to stand and fight.

How would that change the course of events?

Yes, it sounds heartless, but when one triggers the 'fight or flight' response something profound changes in the behavior.

It's an idea, but probalby impossible to implement, and maybe not an idea that would end the fight sooner.

dead_pan 28th May 2013 14:39

Why deploy the S-300 to deter western intervention when it appears there is absolutely no prospect of that? Maybe its more to deter the Israelis and, if so, what else will the Syrians be shipping in under this improved AD cover? Was it revealed what weaponry the Israelis went after a few weeks back?

Maybe Iran are trying to truck something in to northern Lebanon...

Pure Pursuit 28th May 2013 14:39

Why on earth would you want to prevent the innocent from leaving an area of mass murder and random killings?

Lonewolf_50 28th May 2013 14:43

You miss the point, and your presumption of innocence is unwarranted, as refugees arnen't only little children. I also note your inability to think out of the box. Did you bother to read the whole post, which means all of the words, phrases, and sentences? :confused:

If you have to fight to protect your family, and there is no escape, the cornered rat mode may change how things play out.

Of course, you may also assume the fetal position and join the long line of dead victims.

It depends.

Pure Pursuit 28th May 2013 15:11

I fully understood your post however, I satnd by mine.

You are quite correct to assume that not all refugees are innocent however, I would hazard a guess that many of them are. To that end, it would be outrageous to close the door on them and leave them to it.

IMHO, the biggest news of the day was Israel's response to the suggestion that S-300 systems are enroute to Syria. It will be interesting to see if they are targetted by Israel in an attempt to maintain the option to over fly the country should they need to.

Lonewolf_50 28th May 2013 16:03

The IAF will already have some plans in place to neutralize and take out those missiles on the occasion that they need some room over Syrian airspace. Their other concern is being shot at in Israeli airspace, though at the moment I doubt Assad wants to add to his problems.

From here:

“They are trying to basically prevent the escalation of the Syrian conflict not only into neighboring countries, but also into a region-wide conflict. This is what we’re talking about today: Is the fire in Syria devouring and consuming other countries in the region?”
heh, the first domino to fall was Iraq. ;) That is what is spreading to other countries ... more or less.

Also: the Egyptians shut off the attempts and infiltration from Gaza into their land. Funny, genocide didn't happen. Granted, small border, and there were leaks/tunnels.

Others have the same right the Egyptians did to refuse those fleeing entry.

I empathize with the Turks whose city has been inundated with refugees, and I empathize with the refugees. They are at the mercy of whomever and wherevver. Crap position to be in.

Objective comment: if you flee your country, you concede defeat vis a vis whomever it is that you are fleeing, be it government or the local Sunni group or the local jihadis or whatever.

Ronald Reagan 28th May 2013 17:51

The IAF should not be flying over Syria in the first place. If any other country in the world simply attacked another sovereign nation because they felt like it then the repercussions would be very harsh indeed.
I have always supported Israel in the past BUT there needs to be a limit on what they are allowed to do.

Lonewolf_50 28th May 2013 17:55

Ronald, that's a valid point, and has a valid counter: why should Israel allow Hezbollah access to more weapons if they can prevent it? Syria is aiding and abetting the arming of Hezbollah, and for that matter, Hezbollah is fighting shoulder to shoulder in Western Syria with Assad's forces.

It's not as black and white as you'd like it to be.

Civil wars are messy enough, and are even messier when outsiders get involved.

See Spanish Civil War of 1036-1939 for a stellar example.

TEEEJ 28th May 2013 17:58

Interesting development in regards to Russia going ahead with the Syrian S-300 contract. Will they now go ahead with the Iranian S-300 contract? Certainly the Iranians engineer and technicians will be all over the system once delivered to Syria. Will the crafty Russians deploy personnel to jointly man the system to deter Iranian interest and Israeli air strikes? Interesting times ahead?

Various media are quoting apparent tough talk from the Israeli Defence Minister.

Israel "will know what to do" if Russia delivers highly advanced anti-aircraft missiles to Syria, Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon said Tuesday.

AFP said this was “an apparent allusion to another air strike” on Syria.

"The deliveries have not taken place – I can attest to this – and I hope they do not. But if, by some misfortune, they arrive in Syria, we will know what to do," Yaalon said.
Yaalon: We'll Know what to Do If Syria Gets S-300 - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

dead_pan 28th May 2013 20:30

If any other country in the world simply attacked another sovereign nation because they felt like it then the repercussions would be very harsh indeed.
Hmm, I can think of several recent examples where there were no repercussions at all (North-South Korea, Russia-Georgia, US-Iraq).

It is intriguing all this fanfare about the S-300 given there is no air threat to the regime at present. Were the Saudis or Qataris, or maybe the Turks, up to something? Not sure if the former has any airbases in the north of their country - if so these would be no more than a few tens of minutes flying time from Syrian airspace.

Rosevidney1 28th May 2013 22:02

The EU idea to arm the Syrian rebels is disgusting and the results unpredictable to say the least. Try this little thought 'Were we pleased when the Libyan government supplied arms to the IRA?'
Someone is bound to say it is not the same sort of thing. :ugh:

Ronald Reagan 28th May 2013 22:09

Totally agree Rosevidney1. These terrorists in Syria are terrible. I have just watched two videos of them chopping off people's heads with a machete!
Yet the west supports these people!!!! We ruined Libya and Iraq, now the west wants to ruin Syria!!!! The UK, France and USA are the real axis of evil in the world. Basically if there are any good guys in this its Russia and China yet again trying to stop western warmongers. The stronger those two nations get all the better for world stability. If they can stop the west in its tracks then that's a very good thing.

Lonewolf_50 28th May 2013 22:12

Basically if there are any good guys in this its Russia and China yet again trying to stop western warmongers.
Check your meds, Ron. When China and Russia are the good guys, the jig is already up.

Aside: Self hating Westerners are a despicable lot. You don't want to be in their company.

Rosey: Your points have some merit. Some of the problem with arming the various rebels is that it prolongs the war, ups the body count, and continues with the refugee flow into neighboring nations.

None of that is good.

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