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-   -   Here it comes: Syria (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/513470-here-comes-syria.html)

Onceapilot 26th Apr 2013 19:22

Here it comes: Syria
 
DC has started it, a conflict to replace the old one! What do we bring to this debacle?:uhoh:

500N 26th Apr 2013 19:24

Care to explain further ?

Kitbag 26th Apr 2013 19:29

Guessing this has something to do with it?

vulcanised 26th Apr 2013 19:33

I think we're certainly being teed up for something.

Here we go again http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/censored.gif

smujsmith 26th Apr 2013 20:21

Whatever the political f**c*wits try to say, I would suggest that no one, no one will believe any talk of Weapons of most distraction etc etc. Bliar at least ensured that politicians can no longer use the "intelligence" excuse. I saw a comment in a newspaper report on this today where someone suggested that before committing military resources all politicians and top level military should sign a legally binding agreement that, if found to be a false claim (the weapons of mass distraction) they will accept being sent to the War Crimes Tribunal for judgement. Personally I would be happy with a punishment for falsity being double tap from a Hereford hooligan. Obviously this could divert attention from the parlous state of our country.:hmm:

Smudge

Tankertrashnav 26th Apr 2013 20:22

"Growing evidence of weapons of mass destruction" - oops, sorry, I mean chemical weapons :O

I'm well out of it, as thankfully is my son who has recently become a civilian but on behalf of our armed forces I pray that we stay well out of this mess.

Melchett01 26th Apr 2013 20:50

I would think we are still a long way off from doing anything. Kofi Anan has already said there is no military solution in Syria and despite their insistence that the use of WMD would constitute a 'red line' even Obama is being massively cautious and making oblique references to the Iraq debacle, after which it will take a hell of a lot more than the intelligence community declaring because we said so. That said, there has always been a conflict between the Spooks and the politicians and the later's use of what could be very nuanced intelligence reporting for blunt political purposes, so any argument between the Spooks and politicians could well degenerate into he said she said.

IMHO, the context of any alleged use rather than the actual use will be what acts as a trigger. If it can be proven that the Regime has ordered a strike, that is one thing. However, proving that conclusively will be very difficult. It could well be a case of a rogue commander at a local level making a decision on his own initiative. Or it could be a case of Syrian logistics not being up to par, with mixed stockpiles, poor record keeping, old weapons with markings that have become obscured all contributing to an inadvertent firing of CW rounds when Ahmed was told to break open a box, take said round and fire in a given direction.

Until you can prove the first of those without any doubt and can conclusively discount the other 2 contexts, then nobody in their right minds would get involved in a civil war on the grounds of alleged WMD use.

NutLoose 26th Apr 2013 21:53

Errrr didn't we used to treat in the UK and learn how to treat Saddams Kurds that he'd used all sorts of nasties on, I remember seeing the films of nerve and blister agents. Odd how the world seemed to sit on its hands then, at least one thing has changed for the better if it is now seen as a step to far.

smujsmith 26th Apr 2013 21:59

My Lord Melchett

With respect to your argument, I would dare to proffer that the Bliar and Bush personages, never, had problems with fabricating myths to embolden their claims to greater knowledge. Embellished by the churlish Campbell no doubt. Regardless, why do we have any interest in this internecine mish mash of disingenuous and ill suited characters ? I suspect this is the current governments "distraction" from its inability to look after our own country. In 10 years time we will regret becoming involved and, how many civilian and British servicemens deaths is this all worth ? Sorry if its a bit on the serious side, but this sh1t is serious!

Smudge

Willard Whyte 26th Apr 2013 22:31

Glad I ditched my reserve liability day 1 of redundancy.

newt 26th Apr 2013 22:46

Another medal guys!!:ok:

Captain Radar.... 26th Apr 2013 23:29

Get the Atropine out....................or not
 
I'm seeing reports of people supposedly affected by Sarin having dilated pupils.
It's a long time since I did GDT but I seem to remember that one of the symptoms of nerve agent poisoning is contracted pupils. I don't understand why someone hasn't pointed that out. Perhaps it doesn't matter, chemical warfare might be chemical warfare, but maybe touting the use of Sarin is meant to hit a nerve!

air pig 27th Apr 2013 00:38

I give you three words only, Dr David Kelly RiP

phil9560 27th Apr 2013 02:25

Let the manipulation recommence-here we go again !

Tiger_mate 27th Apr 2013 09:40

Fact: There are 196 countries on earth.

Why must the UK be Sherriff every time someone kicks off?

It must be because we can afford to!

What with all those pay rises the military have had in recent years.

It is time someone in a suit in London accepted that we are no more then a Defence Force with a Nuclear card left over from a different era hidden in our back pocket and that we should limit our games to a home front scenario.

Liam Gallagher 27th Apr 2013 09:53

Ever wondered where Syria got their chemical weapons from?

If anyone wants to reply with cut and pastes from their favourite media outlet, please be aware that an equal number of journals will have a contrary view.

Courtney Mil 27th Apr 2013 10:00

Captain Radar,

Pinpoint pupils for nerve agent, indeed yes. But those casualties had been treated with atropine, which has the opposite effect. I was once treated with atropine and the effect is fully dilated pupils, complete inability if the eye to accommodate to bright light or to focus. And the effects of atropine poisoning can last a very long time, depending on dosage.

There is another important feature of sarin, once manufactured, it has a very short shelf life. It is easy to store as two component chemicals, which can be mixed to create sarin ready for use. That involves either deliberately mixing sarin and loading it into a weapon or using a binary weapon which does the mixing when used - e.g. a shell that mixes the two components when fired.

Does Syria own binary CW?

If not, this probably wasn't someone taking an existing weapon out of long term storage - there is no arsenal of sarin shells left over from the Cold War.

Pontius Navigator 27th Apr 2013 11:20

It as been pointed out to me that one of the 'casualties' calmly stretched with his arms above his head and crossed his legs.

The other, also repeated over the last 3 days, purportedly shows a casualty being intubated. Apparently the patient should be unconscious and his head tipped as far back as it will go to get the tube in. We didn't see that, nor did we see if it was a short make believe tube or a proper one.

If the evidence is there why do we only see the same clip on every bulletin?

Lonewolf_50 27th Apr 2013 13:16

Who used it is still debatable.

What "it" is is being asserted as sarin.

Thin.

Oh, and just what is to be done?

I note that China and Russia are not keen on intervention.

air pig 27th Apr 2013 15:12

PN, someone who is intubated is quite capable in the right situation to tolerate having an endotracheal tube (ET) in their trachea and be quite wide awake and able to communicate by gestures, writing or by asking the right question. The dubious bit is that its not connected to anything, so why is he intubated? As you suggest this could be like the Libyan TV report where a supposedly badly injured man did a Lazerus when he thought the camera was off him.

gehenna 27th Apr 2013 15:28

Why should the UK get involved in sorting this mess out?

Why should the British tax-payers foot the bill to sort out another mess which was not of our doing?

Why should our military personnel be put at risk yet again, to a cause which will take an eternity to sort out?

It's time that we stopped trying to emulate the US as being the 'policeman of the world.'

Let those in that part of the world get together and come to an agreement as what to do, and keep the UK well out of it.

It is farcical that the 'rebels' say that the outside world is not doing enough, failing to supply weapons and finance them; who the hell do they think they are making such demands; they are no better than those they are fighting.

lj101 27th Apr 2013 15:41

Gehenna

This may help.

BBC News - Syria crisis could change face of the Middle East

Rosevidney1 27th Apr 2013 18:00

From stable to chaos. Why are we helping the rebels, pray? Can anyone anticipate a happy ending for that ruined and divided country? For all our sakes we should have nothing to do with expediting the end result. Nothing at all.

SADDLER 27th Apr 2013 18:12

Have to agree with the above.
It seems Hauge and co can't wait to start buying weapons for the rebels.
We all know what way this will end up.

smujsmith 27th Apr 2013 19:11

This just feels and sounds like the Bliar lead in to Iraq 2. Lots of reference to "intelligence" etc etc. Surely, after Iraq etc, the Camoron cannot fall for the same spin, Campbell, Dr Kelly sh1te that we've had before. I know that "history has a habit of repeating itself" but, surely not so quickly ? Although, the current mob are desperate for some "off topic" diversionary stuff, to avoid their poor performance. I just have a very bad feeling about Syria, I'm no military strategist, I just don't believe it will do anyone in this country any good.

Smudge

cargosales 27th Apr 2013 20:48


Originally Posted by lj101 (Post 7814725)

I agree, that is, or rather was, an extremely good article. Given that it's from April 2011.

The only teensy problem is that the casualty figures quoted in the article .....

"The death toll today after upheavals in a number of Syrian towns and cities is possibly in the low hundreds with many more injured - exact figures are hard to come by - but the regime still shows every bit as much tenacity in facing down its opponents."

... have been repeated on an almost daily basis ever since..:(

Courtney Mil 27th Apr 2013 22:55

For all the predictions of doom here, it's pretty obvious that the politicians are doing everything they can to find excuses not to get involved. I think many of you are jumping the gun. B O'Bama is being very quiet about his "red line". They will stay out of this - albeit for all the wrong reasons.

Deepest Norfolk 29th Apr 2013 19:10

Somebody with a bit of clout and a few balls should stand up and say"FFS, Dave, with what and with whom? because you've scrapped it all or fired them all!".

DN

tonker 29th Apr 2013 19:33

Learn lessons of 100 years of interfering, stop at home, mind own business.

Lonewolf_50 29th Apr 2013 21:23

I ask again of the pols:
Get involved to achieve what end?

It is all well and good to tell the generals and their troops "go and sort it out" but you need to have an objective in mind and a follow up that ... seems to often come off as "not quite sorted out" which leads to more trouble.

Case in Point: France, US, Lebanon, 1982/1983.

"Go and do something."

OK, we went and did something, and achieved ... what? :confused:

TheWizard 29th Apr 2013 22:47

There are other ways of getting drawn in to this
Report: Missiles fired at Russian passenger jet over Syria - ITV News

500N 29th Apr 2013 22:52

"Case in Point: France, US, Lebanon, 1982/1983.

"Go and do something."

OK, we went and did something, and achieved ... what? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/confused.gif"



One hell of a lot of dead soldiers.

500N 29th Apr 2013 22:54

"There are other ways of getting drawn in to this
Report: Missiles fired at Russian passenger jet over Syria - ITV News"


Jesus. Lucky they only exploded close and didn't hit it and detonate.

Russia is going to be mighty pissed.

Sandy Parts 30th Apr 2013 12:09

I know we've agreed to not sell them arms - maybe we could flog them all our old Browning 9mm now we are getting Glocks? - surely they don't count:E

TBM-Legend 30th Apr 2013 12:16

"Give more guns to both sides and negotiate with the winners!"

We must stay away from this mess. If necessary fund Israel to tidy it up...

PS: There isn't much oil and gas there is there?:confused:

lj101 30th Apr 2013 14:01

TBM

Actually ...... Leviathan gas field


Research suggests there may be as much as 122 trillion cubic feet of natural gas waiting to be tapped off the coasts of Syria, Lebanon and Israel, as well as Gaza, according to a study last year by the US Geological Survey.


Read more: Vast gas fields found off Israel's shores cause trouble at home and abroad - The National
Follow us: @TheNationalUAE on Twitter | thenational.ae on Facebook
There is.

The Nip 30th Apr 2013 17:06

Why is killing a handful of people with WMD any worse than killing thousands with( .........) insert method?

I am not saying it is right, but then again the killing of tens of thousands of Afghans, Iraqis, Syrians is just as wrong. Unless there is a correct way of killing someone.

Pontius Navigator 30th Apr 2013 19:25

At least it's good to see the Korean situation has been sorted.

Now if there was a calamity in the sub-continent, say a building collapsing with hundreds killed, that might solve the near east problem.:\

Just how much of this is driven by the media? Does Joe P care one way or the other? Clarke was saying that UKIP supporters are xenophobic closet racists. He may be correct, but how many Tory (and former Tory) or Labour or Liberal supporters hold the same views?

The supporters of intervention and subsequent immigration seem to have their own agenda which is not Defence of the UK Home Base.

Lonewolf_50 30th Apr 2013 19:34

For The Nip:

Unless there is a correct way of killing someone
There is, among professional military organizations. See reference to LOAC and Geneva Conventions, among other multilateral agreements.

If I may try to link this thread to something of interest to military aircrew:
Wall Street Journal April 29, 2013 Pg. 10

U.S. Analysis Of Syria's Russian-Made Air Defenses
By Adam Entous and Julian E. Barnes

Russia has helped to build up, modernize and maintain Syria's air defenses since 2007, working quietly and often in secret. Here is a look at what U.S. government officials say the Russians have provided:

SA-5 Gammon Multiple surface-to-air missile systems with a range of 175 miles. Can hit aircraft taking off from Cyprus, where the U.S. has a base.
Designed for use against bombers, can be integrated into other air-defense radar systems. Number of systems unknown.
(LW Note: back in the 80's, those were of some concern when we were playing tag with the Mad Colonel.)

SA-22 Pantsir-S1 A transportable antiaircraft gun and surface-to-air missile with a range of about 12 miles, this system can be used against a range of targets including cruise missiles, aircraft and helicopters. They were exported from Russia to Syria in August 2008. Numbers: 36 combat vehicles/launchers.

SA-17 Grizzly This missile system, with a range of up to 20 miles, includes an integrated radar that can engage multiple targets coming from various directions. Numbers: total of 10 launchers.

SA-26 Pechora-2M With an operational range of 17 miles, this missile system is better against maneuvering targets but is only effective at lower
altitudes. Numbers: total of 96 to 150 launchers and two missiles per launcher.

SA-2 Guideline An older technology, guided from the ground, these surface-to-air missiles are used against high altitude aircraft. Ranges vary but can be up to 28 miles. Numbers unknown. (LW Note: it may be old, but it can still kill you).

SA-6 Gainful A mobile antiaircraft system mounted on a tank-like vehicle, it has a range of about 15 miles. Numbers: four transporters each with three missiles and three gun systems.

SA-8 Gecko The system includes an integrated radar enabling it to independently track and engage aircraft, but it is limited to short ranges of about 9 miles. Numbers: four combat vehicle transports, each with six missiles and a three radar-guided antiaircraft guns.

SA-9 Gaskin A short-range infrared antiaircraft system that can hit targets up to 5 miles away. Numbers: four transporters, each with one missile and radar guided antiaircraft gun.

ORAC 4th May 2013 03:47

Israel has conducted airstrike in Syria - U.S. official

(Reuters) - Israel has conducted an airstrike in Syria, apparently targeting a building, a U.S. official said on Friday. The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, declined to elaborate. CNN quoted two unnamed U.S. officials as saying Israel most likely conducted the strike "in the Thursday-Friday time frame" and that Israel's warplanes did not enter Syrian airspace.

CNN said the officials did not believe Israel had targeted a chemical weapons facility. CBS News cited U.S. sources as saying Israel targeted a warehouse.

There was no official confirmation. Syrian U.N. Ambassador Bashar Ja'afari told Reuters, "I'm not aware of any attack right now."

A White House spokeswoman referred questions on the CNN report to the Israeli government. The Pentagon declined comment.

In Jerusalem, an Israeli military spokeswoman said, "We do not comment on reports of this kind."

A spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington said, "We cannot comment on these reports, but what we can say is that Israel is determined to prevent the transfer of chemical weapons or other game-changing weaponry by the Syrian regime to terrorists, especially to Hezbollah in Lebanon." Hezbollah fought a 34-day war with Israel in 2006.

The CNN report said that during the time frame of the attack, the United States had collected information showing Israeli warplanes overflying Lebanon.

In January this year, Israel bombed a convoy in Syria, apparently hitting weapons destined for Hezbollah, according to diplomats, Syrian rebels and security sources in the region.


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