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-   -   Here it comes: Syria (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/513470-here-comes-syria.html)

smujsmith 28th May 2013 22:28

Rosevidney

In my humble opinion a truly erudite question. Unfortunately, with the way things are in modern politics, history, and the learning of it, seems to mean little now. Spin is King. After the recent bombing in Boston, I was struck by the sympathy and support shown to the citizens of that city by our media, politicians and public. I remember sitting in a bar in Boston (back in the days), watching "locals" tossing dollar bills into IRA (NORAID) collection buckets, at a time when Canary wharf bombings etc were happening. I, like all of us I'm sure, hoped that no one would be hurt. We are now, IMHO, going down the same route of arming the people who will eventually use the weapons against us, and no I'm not suggesting the IRA did Boston, just it's a similar lesson we should remember, and should steer well clear of it. Out of interest, what is our history with Syria ? Do we have some sort of moral obligation to get involved, post colonialism etc ? It's all very confusing to me, simpleton what I am, and once the likes of Bill Hague get going, well, I remember a certain Blair and Iraq.:oh:

Smudge

Ronald Reagan 28th May 2013 22:33

We in the west gave up being the good guys a long time ago. The Russians and Chinese have not in recent years engaged in war after war and always seem to prefer to talk or simply trade with anyone/everyone! We in the west seem to think we know best yet cannot even run our own nations properly.
My friends all over the world, in Russia, China, South America, the Middle East, South America, New Zealand, even in our own nations think we are mad with what we are doing, not only mad but wrong, yet our own leadership have their own agenda, its most certainly not in the best interests of the people.

Lowe Flieger 28th May 2013 23:13

Syria: We should not arm the rebels - Defence Management

I agree with John Baron - see link above.

A foreign policy predicated on not interfering in the internal affairs of another country is a sound policy in my opinion. In the last 20 years, there has been marked shift whereby we have sought to impose our solutions on others. This may be well-intentioned, with ulterior motives, or both, but does not always have the effects we intend. The role of peacemaker often means eventually becoming the lightning-rod for all factions in a civil war.

Our direct involvement should be limited to supporting the charities which try to alleviate the suffering of those caught up in the mayhem.

LF

reynoldsno1 29th May 2013 04:25

... I'm sure the IDF will be doing a lot of people's dirty work for them.

Ronald Reagan 29th May 2013 13:59

Rand Paul: Senate Is Arming Al-Qaeda and Rushing to War in Syria

Lonewolf_50 29th May 2013 14:41

There are a lot of good arguments for "let them play" but you do run into a real political problem.

"Hey, you lot helped out Bosniaks, why didn't you help Syria? You lot helped stop the civil war in Libya, why not Syria? You lot, using the UN, spent a lot of time and effort helping in Somalia, for good and ill, why not in Syria?" "

This conversation can take some unfriendly and nasty turns. So modern politics, in the globalized political environment, and membership in things like the UN, lead to political moves that might not otherwise be taken due to quid pro quo.

If you do this, or help there, we'll do that, or not do the other.

It goes on constantly.

Heathrow Harry 29th May 2013 17:13

Rwanda, Libya, Somalia, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Angola..... all hard cases

Don't think you can ever be dogmatic about when and where you will/won't intervene

Rosevidney1 29th May 2013 19:38

Lonewolf _50, The UN is past redemption and has for a long time failed to be fit for any useful purpose. It is incredibly bureaucratic and expensive and has been a talking shop for the pampered representatives of many lands for far too long. The world got rid of the League of Nations quickly enough when it was seen to fail. How much longer will we have to endure shovelling money into the UN and its myriad agencies?

Lonewolf_50 29th May 2013 23:16

I find the UN good for some things, piss poor in others.

You and I can complain about it, but I don't see it going away any time soon. So, as it's there, use it as a tool. Not the only tool, but a tool. To choose not to is to limit ones options unnecessarily.

Your point on UN corruption and bureaucracy is both noted and agreed.

ORAC 30th May 2013 09:51

Grauniad: ē The first shipment of Russian anti-aircraft missiles has arrived in Syria, Bashar al-Assad has said, according to Lebanese TV. The Al-Manar TV channel owned by the Shia militant group Hezbollah, which has joined the Syrian civil war on Assadís side, said it would air a full interview with the Syrian president later today.

Israel has indicated it is likely to attack the weapons if they fall into the hands of Hezbollah or other hostile groups. "I don't know how upset the Russians would be if, at some point between payment and the installation of this technology in Damascus by Russian experts, something was done to damage the weaponry. As long as no Russians were hurt and they got paid, I don't think they would care," an Israeli diplomat told the Guardian yesterday.

The Russian move to fulfil its longstanding deal with Syria is widely seen as being retaliation for the EUís move to drop its arms embargo on the Syrian rebels.

Lonewolf_50 30th May 2013 13:07

Stage is being set for this civil war to continue for quite some time.

Is that everybody's aim? :confused:

ZeBedie 30th May 2013 22:10

S300 range of 200km must be more than any air to surface anti-radiation missile, I guess?

GreenKnight121 31st May 2013 07:24

That's the intercept range as part of a functioning integrated air defense network.

Syria doesn't have one of those anymore, so the actual intercept range will be much shorter.

GreenKnight121 31st May 2013 07:31

The radical Sunni rebels have been getting weapons, because their suppliers have been ignoring the EU's weapons embargo, and such.

The Shiite supporters of Assad, and Assad's government, are still getting weapons, mainly from Russia and Iran.


The only group which hasn't been getting weapons is the "moderate opposition", because they won't agree to the political terms the suppliers of the radicals, and because their supporters have been obeying the arms embargoes.


Those are who the EU has decided need arms.

Think, as it stands now, if Assad falls, who is best positioned to take over by "right of arms"... the unarmed moderates or the armed radicals?

TEEEJ 31st May 2013 11:03

Russian sources are now disputing the claims of S-300 delivery by Assad.


A spokesperson told the Guardian that the foreign ministry was preparing to issue an official statement on the S-300 delivery, but would not disclose when it would be released.
Syria 'will not receive Russian S-300 missiles for at least a year' | World news | guardian.co.uk

Russia unlikely to send S-300 missiles to Syria before autumn - Interfax | Reuters

Syrian contract for upgraded MiG-29s.

Russian arms manufacturer signs contract to sell at least 10 MiG fighter jets to Syria - The Washington Post

Ronald Reagan 31st May 2013 12:02

Turkish Police find Chemical Weapons in the Possession of Al Nusra Terrorists heading for Syria | Global Research

ORAC 3rd Jun 2013 09:21

The trouble in Syria now seems to have an increasing chance of exploding throughout the entire Middle East....

Muslim Brotherhood cleric calls for Sunni jihad in Syria

The spiritual mentor of the worldwide Muslim Brotherhood movement has risked further inflaming sectarian tension across the Middle East by using highly charged religious rhetoric to call for a Sunni "jihad" in Syria.

Yusef al-Qaradawi, who is based in Qatar and has been a leading voice supporting the Arab Spring, warned that Iranian Shia were trying to "eat" Sunni Muslims, who are a majority in the Muslim world.

He referred to Alawites, the followers of the Muslim sect to which President Bashar al-Assad of Syria belongs, as being "worse infidels than Christians or Jews". He also used the deliberately contemptuous term "Nusayris" when talking about them. He was particularly critical of the roles played by Iran, which is largely Shia, and the Lebanon Shia militia Hizbollah whose name translates as Party of God but which he called "Party of Satan", in supporting the Assad regime.

"There is no common ground between the two sides because the Iranians, especially conservatives, want to eat the Sunni people," he said............

The Muslim Brotherhood, though a Sunni, Islamist movement that has given birth to a number of jihadist offshoots, has been held up as a "moderating" force within Arab Spring countries with which the West "can do business". Egypt has a Muslim Brotherhood president, while the coalition government in Tunisia is led by a Brotherhood-linked organisation backed by Dr Qaradawi.

Dr Qaradawi himself, who is Egyptian by birth but has lived in Qatar for many years and is regarded as a key factor in the active role the Qatari royal family has played in backing the Arab Spring uprisings with arms and money, has a controversial record in the West.

However, his latest comments, made in a mosque in Qatar on Friday, go beyond his previous political sermons. He himself acknowledged he had become more radical. "People involved in reconciliation between the sects... said that I used to be the one calling for reconciliation and doctrinal unity. They asked why I don't take up that call again. "Well, I called for reconciliation but I found it did not bring the sects closer. They benefited from it and we failed to take advantage." He also apologised for his past words in favour of Hizbollah. "The Shia deceived me," he said. "I was less mature than the Sunni scholars who were aware of the truth of that party."

He said Sunni Muslims around the world should not wait for the West to help the rebel cause against the "Nusayris", the Iranians and "the party of God". "They are the party of Satan, the party of the tyrant," he said. "The party of God does not kill Muslims, and these people draw close to God by killing Muslims."

The war in Syria has split the region largely along sectarian lines, with Sunni Gulf and North African states largely supporting the rebels, and Shia Iran and Shia communities in Lebanon and Iraq supporting the regime.

The city of Tripoli in northern Lebanon has already seen fighting between Sunni and Alawite districts, while there has been a rise in sectarian violence in Iraq where many Sunnis have tribal links to Syria but the government represents the majority Shia community and is close to Iran.

TEEEJ 4th Jun 2013 13:26


Russia has not yet delivered S-300 missiles to Syria: Putin

AFP - Russian President Vladimir Putin said Tuesday Moscow had not yet delivered its sophisticated S-300 missiles to the Damascus regime despite hints from Syrian President Bashar al-Assad that such shipments had already been made.

"The contract was signed several years ago. It has not been realised yet," Putin said at a joint press conference with EU leaders. "We do not want to upset the balance in the region."
Russia has not yet delivered S-300 missiles to Syria: Putin - FRANCE 24


ďAs for the S-300s, itís one of the best air defense systems in the world,Ē Putin said following a Russia-EU summit. ďItís a serious weapon. We would not like to tip the balance of power in the region. We signed the contract a few years ago. It has not been implemented yet.Ē
Russian contract for delivery of S-300s to Syria yet to be fulfilled - Putin ? RT News

Lonewolf_50 4th Jun 2013 14:31


He said Sunni Muslims around the world should not wait for the West to help the rebel cause against the "Nusayris", the Iranians and "the party of God".

"They are the party of Satan, the party of the tyrant," he said. "The party of God does not kill Muslims, and these people draw close to God by killing
Muslims."

The war in Syria has split the region largely along sectarian lines, with Sunni Gulf and North African states largely supporting the rebels, and Shia Iran and Shia communities in Lebanon and Iraq supporting the regime.

The city of Tripoli in northern Lebanon has already seen fighting between Sunni and Alawite districts, while there has been a rise in sectarian violence in Iraq where many Sunnis have tribal links to Syria but the government represents the majority Shia community and is close to Iran.
If you get the foreigners to move out and away, these folks don't have anyone else to fight with, so they fight each other. (Point of reference is regional).

If that's what they want, that's what they'll get. We'll see whether or not he's yet another "spokesman" making a lot of noise, or if he's a leader whose general direction is followed by others ...

My recommendation: invest in body bag futures. :mad:

BEagle 4th Jun 2013 15:55

Sunni and Shia?


Or Sonny and Cher?


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