Meteor Accident Statistics
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TD & H
Some good post war flying books besides the ones you mention
Last of the Lightnings by Ian Black - great text and photography
Think Like a Bird by Alex Kimbell - Beaver flying in the Royal Army
Warthog - Flying the A-10 in the Gulf War by Smallwood
Strike Eagle: Flying the F-15E in the Gulf War by Smallwood
Scream of Eagles by Robert Wilcox - the setting up of the Top Gun program
Wings of Fury by Wilcox - setting up of Red Flag, Aggressors and AIMEVAL/ACEVAL
Highly recommend Jet Jockeys that someone else has mentioned.
Cheers
Worf
Some good post war flying books besides the ones you mention
Last of the Lightnings by Ian Black - great text and photography
Think Like a Bird by Alex Kimbell - Beaver flying in the Royal Army
Warthog - Flying the A-10 in the Gulf War by Smallwood
Strike Eagle: Flying the F-15E in the Gulf War by Smallwood
Scream of Eagles by Robert Wilcox - the setting up of the Top Gun program
Wings of Fury by Wilcox - setting up of Red Flag, Aggressors and AIMEVAL/ACEVAL
Highly recommend Jet Jockeys that someone else has mentioned.
Cheers
Worf
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Very interesting thread... missed it first time around.
Chimbu chuckles:
Now maybe my memory is failing me, perhaps someone can confirm or deny, but I thought it was precisely the reverse; long-legged chaps were unable to bang out of the Vampire safely, and were sent to the roomier Meteor?
R1
Chimbu chuckles:
They finally discovered that chaps over a certain height had a hip to knee measurement that precluded the knees passing behind the canopy bow.
They measured everyone and those to tall were posted to Vampires where, due to a lack of said expulsive device, no similar problem existed.
R1
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Ranger One: That sounds more likely.
Not that it would have made any difference in the Meteor 4, 7, 11, 12, 13, or 14.
Can anyone ( FV ? ) recall when measuring was introduced.
I think it must have been post 1960 late in the life of the T11.
Not that it would have made any difference in the Meteor 4, 7, 11, 12, 13, or 14.
Can anyone ( FV ? ) recall when measuring was introduced.
I think it must have been post 1960 late in the life of the T11.
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It is straining the old grey matter without my log books but I seem to remember at the end of FTS going to Driffield to be measured and being wound up and then down in an ejection seat rig. That would have been in 1952. I was told that I would not be able to fly a Canberra, didn't want to as it happened, much happier as a steely eyed killer with Meteor,Vampire and Sabre---then came the Old Grey Lady.
Sorry to be so late with this, but I've had to dig out the statistics.
The total RAF losses for 1952 were:
18 Ansons
1 Athena
22 Austers
1 Balliol
1 Beaufighter
9 Brigands
1 Buckmaster
9 Canberras
15 Chipmunks
1 Dakota
1 Dragonfly
1 Halifax
37 Harvards
3 Hastings
10 Hornets
6 Lancasters
6 Lincolns
1 Martinet
150 Meteors
32 Mosquitos
21 Oxfords
9 Prentices
5 Proctors
1 Sabre
2 Shackletons
7 Spitfires
1 Sunderland
1 Sycamore
5 Tempests
20 Tiger Moths
11 Valettas
82 Vampires
2 Varsities
1 Venom
1 Washington
15 Wellingtons
Total 505 aircraft.
Casualties were 315 killed plus 6 killed on the ground.
What I find astonishing is the sheer variety of aircraft that were operated in those days. And, of course, the figures don't include Army and Navy losses.
The total RAF losses for 1952 were:
18 Ansons
1 Athena
22 Austers
1 Balliol
1 Beaufighter
9 Brigands
1 Buckmaster
9 Canberras
15 Chipmunks
1 Dakota
1 Dragonfly
1 Halifax
37 Harvards
3 Hastings
10 Hornets
6 Lancasters
6 Lincolns
1 Martinet
150 Meteors
32 Mosquitos
21 Oxfords
9 Prentices
5 Proctors
1 Sabre
2 Shackletons
7 Spitfires
1 Sunderland
1 Sycamore
5 Tempests
20 Tiger Moths
11 Valettas
82 Vampires
2 Varsities
1 Venom
1 Washington
15 Wellingtons
Total 505 aircraft.
Casualties were 315 killed plus 6 killed on the ground.
What I find astonishing is the sheer variety of aircraft that were operated in those days. And, of course, the figures don't include Army and Navy losses.
Schiller,
That is incredible, 150 Meteors and 82 Vampires!
List DOES include Army BTW, the 22 Austers listed will more than likely have been flown by Army pilots, the AAC wasn't formed until 1957.
Certainly were dangerous times.
That is incredible, 150 Meteors and 82 Vampires!
List DOES include Army BTW, the 22 Austers listed will more than likely have been flown by Army pilots, the AAC wasn't formed until 1957.
Certainly were dangerous times.
Gentleman Aviator
will more than likely have been flown by Army pilots
In 1952, the AOP Sqns in existence were 651, 652, 656, 657, 660-4 and the delightfully numbered 666. 661-6 were (in 1952) in the RAuxAF and were disbanded in 1957 on the formation of the AAC. 652 and 656 were also training sqns and had some Tiger Moths, but can't find out if that was still so in 1952 - so the Army pilots could have been responsible for some of the Tigers too!
Sorry for the thread creep, but I didn't start it!
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What a fascinating thread to have belatedly stumbled across!
I have not often come across reference to Merrifield but I also spent a lot of my formative years close to that place.
In another life I worked on farms in that area. There were places where it was almost easier to pick up pieces of bent and corroded aluminium and thick plexiglass than it was to pick up the potatoes!
Local legend appears to be confirmed by this thread that the aircraft were caught out by wx, tried and failed at Weston Zoyland and returned to the Merrifield area. The legend says that lights from an intensive chicken unit at Puckington or Isle Abbots were then mistaken for the runway lights at Merrifield and they just ploughed in.
Just one question for Shacks though: I only ever remember seeing two RAF gravestones in Ilton churchyard and I knew it pretty well. Where was the overspill burial?
So BEagle, YOU and your mate were personally responsible for the stink that used to hang over Merrifield and Ilton were you? You have a lot to answer for! I also remember the grass drying unit there; I think it was probably owned by John D was it not, who also farmed at Dowlish?
I just think it (and many others) must have been amazing places ten years or so prior to your tenure, with the temporary American cities, and busy aerial activity.
I have not often come across reference to Merrifield but I also spent a lot of my formative years close to that place.
In another life I worked on farms in that area. There were places where it was almost easier to pick up pieces of bent and corroded aluminium and thick plexiglass than it was to pick up the potatoes!
Local legend appears to be confirmed by this thread that the aircraft were caught out by wx, tried and failed at Weston Zoyland and returned to the Merrifield area. The legend says that lights from an intensive chicken unit at Puckington or Isle Abbots were then mistaken for the runway lights at Merrifield and they just ploughed in.
Just one question for Shacks though: I only ever remember seeing two RAF gravestones in Ilton churchyard and I knew it pretty well. Where was the overspill burial?
So BEagle, YOU and your mate were personally responsible for the stink that used to hang over Merrifield and Ilton were you? You have a lot to answer for! I also remember the grass drying unit there; I think it was probably owned by John D was it not, who also farmed at Dowlish?
I just think it (and many others) must have been amazing places ten years or so prior to your tenure, with the temporary American cities, and busy aerial activity.
No, my late father and his business partner actually owned the grass drying business at Merryfield! As well as the ones at Weston Zoyland, Dunkeswell and Lulsgate.
The smell which used to hang over Ilton was originally due to broiler chickens - but later when the old Officers' Mess site was sold we bought it and kept up to 3000 pigs in it. Some said that this improved the standard of the place! Tried for years to sell the land for building, but the planning authorities wouldn't hear of it! Finally successful in around 1972 - when they came round to see whether there was indeed any 'agricultural odour' affecting the village we arranged for the slurry tank to be stirred up just before they arrived. Sorry about that!
The only Meteor prang I remember was a RN target tower which came to grief on the threshold of 26 - but pointing East! No-one was hurt in that one.
I don't think that the large chicken farm at Isle Abbots was built until long after the 1950s?
Farmers I remember were Dick Lucas and Morley Goodland. Who was John F?
The smell which used to hang over Ilton was originally due to broiler chickens - but later when the old Officers' Mess site was sold we bought it and kept up to 3000 pigs in it. Some said that this improved the standard of the place! Tried for years to sell the land for building, but the planning authorities wouldn't hear of it! Finally successful in around 1972 - when they came round to see whether there was indeed any 'agricultural odour' affecting the village we arranged for the slurry tank to be stirred up just before they arrived. Sorry about that!
The only Meteor prang I remember was a RN target tower which came to grief on the threshold of 26 - but pointing East! No-one was hurt in that one.
I don't think that the large chicken farm at Isle Abbots was built until long after the 1950s?
Farmers I remember were Dick Lucas and Morley Goodland. Who was John F?
My flying instructor at Church Fenton was a hairy arsed Master Pilot who had been a Meatbox instructor at Driffield. Indeed the aircraft was a death machine. A funeral a week just at Driffield. Not to mention the assymetric problem, there were the dingies that inflated on take off pushing the stick fwd and thus causing the plane to crash. That is why flying suits have a knife (or did) to stab the inflating dinghy. Also there were the instrument take offs that didnt account for acceleration error so there were many holes on the side of the runway - cant remember which side. Truly a real killer plane not helped by the CO at the time encourging pilots to do low level barrel rolls which caused a few fatalities. Thank god I never trained on them. I did my training after they had banned solo spinning and practice turnbacks after a simulated engine failure which had claimed a few lives on JP's.Gosh how safety has improved since the 50's, 60's.
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Only just found this thread again, still fascinating, particularly the entirely understandable attitude of those who trained after the Meteor era, and consider them, and the Canberra, to be death traps. And the stats produced by Schiller would tend to support that view; incredible even when taken in the 1952 context, when things did seem to be tentpegging with monotonous regularity.
But I'm sure that those of us lucky enough to train on, and subsequently fly both those types in squadron service, didn't think of it like that. There were an awful number of aeroplanes about in those days, and an awful lot of pilots being trained, so percentagewise, though still quite unacceptable by todays standards, it did not appear to us as horrifying as it does today.
I never instructed on the Meteor or Canberra, but have done the odd check out ride in the back of the 7 and right hand seat of a T4 Canberra. My QFIing was done on the Vamp T11, JP and Chipmunk, and of all of them I found the JP3 with a slow student, short runway, constant power/variable noise Viper, teaching roller landings, to be the most worrying.
But I'm sure that those of us lucky enough to train on, and subsequently fly both those types in squadron service, didn't think of it like that. There were an awful number of aeroplanes about in those days, and an awful lot of pilots being trained, so percentagewise, though still quite unacceptable by todays standards, it did not appear to us as horrifying as it does today.
I never instructed on the Meteor or Canberra, but have done the odd check out ride in the back of the 7 and right hand seat of a T4 Canberra. My QFIing was done on the Vamp T11, JP and Chipmunk, and of all of them I found the JP3 with a slow student, short runway, constant power/variable noise Viper, teaching roller landings, to be the most worrying.
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Accident Rates
Picking up from the earlier posts on this page I recently did some research on RAF accident rates (excluding combat losses) from Sep 1945 to end 2004 - they make interesting reading (my figure for 1952 is 2 out from Schiller - possibly because a couple were recategorised). These are the figures:
Year Number of Aircraft
Lost – Cat 3 + Fatalities
1945 592 638
1946 1014 677
1947 420 176
1948 424 205
1949 438 224
1950 380 238
1951 490 280
1952 507 318
1953 483 333
1954 452 283
1955 305 182
1956 270 150
1957 233 139
1958 128 87
1959 102 59
1960 80 46
1961 74 55
1962 68 50
1963 60 41
1964 62 33
1965 46 71
1966 62 33
1967 60 60
1968 51 43
1969 31 22
1970 36 25
1971 40 72
1972 28 22
1973 30 21
1974 16 5
1975 21 17
1976 33 20
1977 14 7
1978 25 27
1979 27 13
1980 24 13
1981 26 7
1982 35 10
1983 26 19
1984 23 4
1985 19 9
1986 19 10
1987 20 17
1988 19 18
1989 17 9
1990* 29 19
1991* 27 15
1992* 17 8
1993* 17 13
1994* 17 34
1995* 13 9
1996* 21 2
1997* 12 3
1998* 11 3
1999* 18 6
2000* 9 1
2001* 12 4
2002* 9 3
2003* 6 11
2004* 6 13
7554 4928
The figures from 1990* onwards are from the Defence Statistical Agency and include all military flying accidents - RAF, RN, Army and DPA.
With something like 70% of the accidents (RAF only) in the first 10 years and only 1.5% (all services) in the last 10 years you can see the massive change. The casualty figures are even better - 1.1% in the past 10 years - perhaps reflecting even more glory on Martin Baker!
!946 was certainly a bad year for Boards of Inquiries but with 2-3 aircrew deaths for every flying day (50 weeks times 5 days) it is amazing that the system seemed to cope with such losses without massive public criticism - but this is before my time - so perhaps there was.
Year Number of Aircraft
Lost – Cat 3 + Fatalities
1945 592 638
1946 1014 677
1947 420 176
1948 424 205
1949 438 224
1950 380 238
1951 490 280
1952 507 318
1953 483 333
1954 452 283
1955 305 182
1956 270 150
1957 233 139
1958 128 87
1959 102 59
1960 80 46
1961 74 55
1962 68 50
1963 60 41
1964 62 33
1965 46 71
1966 62 33
1967 60 60
1968 51 43
1969 31 22
1970 36 25
1971 40 72
1972 28 22
1973 30 21
1974 16 5
1975 21 17
1976 33 20
1977 14 7
1978 25 27
1979 27 13
1980 24 13
1981 26 7
1982 35 10
1983 26 19
1984 23 4
1985 19 9
1986 19 10
1987 20 17
1988 19 18
1989 17 9
1990* 29 19
1991* 27 15
1992* 17 8
1993* 17 13
1994* 17 34
1995* 13 9
1996* 21 2
1997* 12 3
1998* 11 3
1999* 18 6
2000* 9 1
2001* 12 4
2002* 9 3
2003* 6 11
2004* 6 13
7554 4928
The figures from 1990* onwards are from the Defence Statistical Agency and include all military flying accidents - RAF, RN, Army and DPA.
With something like 70% of the accidents (RAF only) in the first 10 years and only 1.5% (all services) in the last 10 years you can see the massive change. The casualty figures are even better - 1.1% in the past 10 years - perhaps reflecting even more glory on Martin Baker!
!946 was certainly a bad year for Boards of Inquiries but with 2-3 aircrew deaths for every flying day (50 weeks times 5 days) it is amazing that the system seemed to cope with such losses without massive public criticism - but this is before my time - so perhaps there was.
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This has been a fascinating thread to trawl through as a "layman" and rather co-incidentally I today inherited a copy of Pilots Notes for Meteor 3 (2nd Ed A.P.2210C-P.N and dated March 1949) and a copy of the RAF Pilots Notes General (3rd Ed A.P.2095 and Dated May 1946).
My Uncle, who sadly passed away earlier this year, worked on Meteors at Duxford for his National Service and my father has kindly ensured that these, along with some other aviation bits and pieces have been kept for me.
They too make for fascinating reading and I'm interested to know just how long such Pilots Notes were produced for?
Presumably, as aircraft became more complex a 36 page booklet ceased to suffice, even as a handy checklist for aircrew. Or perhaps I'm completely wrong!
Anyway, hope everyone is having a good Christmas and enjoys and happy new year.
Gareth
My Uncle, who sadly passed away earlier this year, worked on Meteors at Duxford for his National Service and my father has kindly ensured that these, along with some other aviation bits and pieces have been kept for me.
They too make for fascinating reading and I'm interested to know just how long such Pilots Notes were produced for?
Presumably, as aircraft became more complex a 36 page booklet ceased to suffice, even as a handy checklist for aircrew. Or perhaps I'm completely wrong!
Anyway, hope everyone is having a good Christmas and enjoys and happy new year.
Gareth
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
On the assymetric killing during training, we had a fatal in 1962 at Hullavington on the Valetta. Although we were Flying Trainng Command the sortie was a Transport Command check. Single engine failure after take-off and one was feathered.
I am not sure if the live engine was shut down or the aircraft simply spun on its live engine. Either way it was a vertical desecnt from 1200 feet into Badminton.
It would be interesting to see how many of the crashes from 1945 could be attributed to training for emergencies compared with actual emergencies or even the incident of the emergencies.
I don't recall any classic Vulcan true assymetric emergencies leading to a safe landing - or crash on the airfield even. Most were the shut down of one engine as a precaution and at least one crashes war due to recovery from a practise assymetric.
I am not sure if the live engine was shut down or the aircraft simply spun on its live engine. Either way it was a vertical desecnt from 1200 feet into Badminton.
It would be interesting to see how many of the crashes from 1945 could be attributed to training for emergencies compared with actual emergencies or even the incident of the emergencies.
I don't recall any classic Vulcan true assymetric emergencies leading to a safe landing - or crash on the airfield even. Most were the shut down of one engine as a precaution and at least one crashes war due to recovery from a practise assymetric.
There was very nearly a fatal at Scampton when a USAF exchange office decided to attempt a 2-engine simulated asymmetric overshoot from below VCH...... They went sideways across the aerodrome until the other engines spooled up.
It was explained to us at our UAS (back in the days when real RAF QFIs imparted wisdom to youngsters during UAS training nights, rather than relying upon the "Janet and John Go Flying" books of later years), that the reason for many crashes in the Meatbox/Vampire era was due to acceleration errors affecting their steam-driven artificial horizons. These gave a false pitch up and roll right indication, hence Meteor-shaped holes appeared off the left hand side of many runways at the departure end. To compensate, 'pendulous vanes' were fitted to the air-driven gyro suspension, these opened under acceleration and applied corrective air jet forces to eliminate the 'Meteor hole' effect. "About the only time pilots were glad to have the company of pendulous veins (or rather, vanes)" quipped the CFI!
Asymmetric practice probably killed more people than actual asymmetric landings; I did 3 trips in the back of Meteor T7 'Clementine' at Brawdy in the mid-70s (being shot at by fellow Hunter students), and on each occasion a very positive asymmetric brief was given. For one pilot, with rather little legs, this included assisting him with full rudder as called. But back in the 1950s, things weren't quite so cautious, by all accounts.
It was explained to us at our UAS (back in the days when real RAF QFIs imparted wisdom to youngsters during UAS training nights, rather than relying upon the "Janet and John Go Flying" books of later years), that the reason for many crashes in the Meatbox/Vampire era was due to acceleration errors affecting their steam-driven artificial horizons. These gave a false pitch up and roll right indication, hence Meteor-shaped holes appeared off the left hand side of many runways at the departure end. To compensate, 'pendulous vanes' were fitted to the air-driven gyro suspension, these opened under acceleration and applied corrective air jet forces to eliminate the 'Meteor hole' effect. "About the only time pilots were glad to have the company of pendulous veins (or rather, vanes)" quipped the CFI!
Asymmetric practice probably killed more people than actual asymmetric landings; I did 3 trips in the back of Meteor T7 'Clementine' at Brawdy in the mid-70s (being shot at by fellow Hunter students), and on each occasion a very positive asymmetric brief was given. For one pilot, with rather little legs, this included assisting him with full rudder as called. But back in the 1950s, things weren't quite so cautious, by all accounts.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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946 was certainly a bad year for Boards of Inquiries but with 2-3 aircrew deaths for every flying day (50 weeks times 5 days) it is amazing that the system seemed to cope with such losses without massive public criticism - but this is before my time - so perhaps there was.
In the RAF in the 50s the trainers were those who had survived the war and the students were those too young to join in the 40s. There was (perhaps understandably) an aircrew culture where everyone tied to show they were better than everybody else - especially the trainers. If a Meteor pilot reckoned he could chop an HP cock during rotation and cope there was a chance that he would inflict such a chop on his studes. It was also a sign of inferiority not to use the normal twin engined threshold speed when landing on one. All this may seem amazing by today's standards but it was accepted (even encouraged?) behaviour at the time.
As for public outcry people also minded their own business in those days.
The news was mainly limited to newspapers and radio. Plus reporters seemed happy to report news rather than to try and make it.
Happy days!.