Meteor Accident Statistics
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Flatus Veteranus
France eh! I thought you'd fallen off your perch! Kept waiting for you to join the fray but zilch! All is now revealed.
If you can borrow a copy of PNs for the Meteors T7/F3/F9 etc, I have a mate who can produce fantastic as new reproductions for about a few quid plus postage. He did an NF14 for me and you could not tell the difference from the original. Even had the little stick-in white amendments I think he uses Photo Shop 9 or whatever mark they are up to. He even included a copy of our old frequency card with all the old freqs. Fighter Command Common used to be a 107.28 crystal - which of course is in the modern ILS range. But then, there weren't no ILS in them days.
France eh! I thought you'd fallen off your perch! Kept waiting for you to join the fray but zilch! All is now revealed.
If you can borrow a copy of PNs for the Meteors T7/F3/F9 etc, I have a mate who can produce fantastic as new reproductions for about a few quid plus postage. He did an NF14 for me and you could not tell the difference from the original. Even had the little stick-in white amendments I think he uses Photo Shop 9 or whatever mark they are up to. He even included a copy of our old frequency card with all the old freqs. Fighter Command Common used to be a 107.28 crystal - which of course is in the modern ILS range. But then, there weren't no ILS in them days.
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I trained in Canada in '53 on Harvards and T33s. I went on to do two years with 605Sqn RAuxAF, on Vampires with two T7s for IF. The Meteor was a big heavy aircraft, and the jump for UK trained students straight from the Harvard and with (imho) poor instrument flying skills was pretty horrendous.
All you have heard is true. The EFATO at Rissie in the 60s was a turbine destruct at t/o rpm that blew the port nacelle to shreds. No chance.
The T7 had a problem with canopy jettison. The canopy could swing sideways and decapitate the back seat pilot. This tended to limit options for abandonment.
Does anyone recall the Aux sqn setting off in formation for Sylt? The leader raised his gear too early and set fire to the ventral. Someone behind called for a jettison, which he did, blocking the runway with burning fuel. The leader turned downwind and looked down on an airfield covered in scattered Meteors.
I have pilots notes for Meteors 7, and 11 and in one book for the 11,12, 13, 14 and TT20. Not to mention the Vampire 5 and T11 and the Hunter 1.
Now, that was an aircraft, the Hunter 1. No armament, no fuel to speak of, she climbed like a homesick angel.
Dick W
All you have heard is true. The EFATO at Rissie in the 60s was a turbine destruct at t/o rpm that blew the port nacelle to shreds. No chance.
The T7 had a problem with canopy jettison. The canopy could swing sideways and decapitate the back seat pilot. This tended to limit options for abandonment.
Does anyone recall the Aux sqn setting off in formation for Sylt? The leader raised his gear too early and set fire to the ventral. Someone behind called for a jettison, which he did, blocking the runway with burning fuel. The leader turned downwind and looked down on an airfield covered in scattered Meteors.
I have pilots notes for Meteors 7, and 11 and in one book for the 11,12, 13, 14 and TT20. Not to mention the Vampire 5 and T11 and the Hunter 1.
Now, that was an aircraft, the Hunter 1. No armament, no fuel to speak of, she climbed like a homesick angel.
Dick W
Yes, Him
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Just went to Amazon to order the book which kicked this (excellent) thread off and I find that the book is listed as fiction.
I was under the impression it was of a documentary nature. Anybody on here actually read it & care to comment?
I was under the impression it was of a documentary nature. Anybody on here actually read it & care to comment?
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I just came across this thread whilst searching for something else. I thoroughly enjoyed reading peoples experiences of the Meteor. I had heard that it had killed a lot of aircrew but the figures mentioned at the beginning of the thread are depressing to say the least.
I had the pleasure of meeting an old chap who had flown Vampires Venoms and the Meatbox. He had know pilots who had been caught out by the phantom dive before it was really know exactly what caused it. I also have a friend who is well into his 80’s now who flew Meteors in the early days and was responsible for converting pilots onto them. His memories seem to be not only of lots of deaths, (I never really appreciated just how many), but of constantly being short of fuel and many of the ex wartime piston pilots struggling to come to terms with the massive fuel burns low down.
Years after talking to these gents I had the great fortune to fly in the Meteor in 2003; maybe if I had read this thread first I might have declined! I doubt it though. As it turned out it was the last time I ever flew with Paul Morris, a very close friend of over 25 years.
He managed to convince me it was safe to fly on one engine and (if I recall correctly) GLOSM has a light to remind the pilot the brakes were out so he wouldn’t be using them and then dropping the gear. Shortly after take off he was busy effing and blinding as he wrestled with the HP cock to shut one down until shortly before landing. The relight was also accompanied with lots of swearing due to the position if the HP cock. As we approached Waddo everything was going great, until the controller asked us to hold over Bardney. “Where the f*$$s that?” asked Paul, I pointed him towards it. After going round in circles a couple of times: “sod this, tell them we are landing” so I did, and we did. We weren’t on fumes (honest) but the gauges looked Mickey Mouse to me and it makes me realise how spoilt I am to fly modern aircraft with more sensible fuel burns, with lots of fuel and gauges that read accurately.
I cant imagine what it must have been like to fly one for 'real'. Then I guess people didnt know any better?
I had the pleasure of meeting an old chap who had flown Vampires Venoms and the Meatbox. He had know pilots who had been caught out by the phantom dive before it was really know exactly what caused it. I also have a friend who is well into his 80’s now who flew Meteors in the early days and was responsible for converting pilots onto them. His memories seem to be not only of lots of deaths, (I never really appreciated just how many), but of constantly being short of fuel and many of the ex wartime piston pilots struggling to come to terms with the massive fuel burns low down.
Years after talking to these gents I had the great fortune to fly in the Meteor in 2003; maybe if I had read this thread first I might have declined! I doubt it though. As it turned out it was the last time I ever flew with Paul Morris, a very close friend of over 25 years.
He managed to convince me it was safe to fly on one engine and (if I recall correctly) GLOSM has a light to remind the pilot the brakes were out so he wouldn’t be using them and then dropping the gear. Shortly after take off he was busy effing and blinding as he wrestled with the HP cock to shut one down until shortly before landing. The relight was also accompanied with lots of swearing due to the position if the HP cock. As we approached Waddo everything was going great, until the controller asked us to hold over Bardney. “Where the f*$$s that?” asked Paul, I pointed him towards it. After going round in circles a couple of times: “sod this, tell them we are landing” so I did, and we did. We weren’t on fumes (honest) but the gauges looked Mickey Mouse to me and it makes me realise how spoilt I am to fly modern aircraft with more sensible fuel burns, with lots of fuel and gauges that read accurately.
I cant imagine what it must have been like to fly one for 'real'. Then I guess people didnt know any better?
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Fly Better!: I cannot help but think that Paul Morris was making too much of a fuss about putting one out and relighting.
The HP cocks were/are on the back wall.
If one just dropped a hand and moved it back the HP cock came readily to hand.
The relighting button was on the end of the HP cock so the operation of the two was simple.
The HP cocks were/are on the back wall.
If one just dropped a hand and moved it back the HP cock came readily to hand.
The relighting button was on the end of the HP cock so the operation of the two was simple.
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Apologies, I did not intend any slur on the gentleman.
After I had posted the thought crossed my mind that, without knowing of his experience in the aircraft, perhaps the limited hours available these days would be a factor.
After I had posted the thought crossed my mind that, without knowing of his experience in the aircraft, perhaps the limited hours available these days would be a factor.
As a young Hastings second pilot I didn't realise I was in such danger when I talked my way into flying the Levant Comm Squadron Meteor 7's and 8's on the midday patrols during the summer of 1958- only a pilots' notes oral without any dual!! In the Nicosia heat, with full drops and ventral, take-off performance was marginal to say the least. June July and August were too hot for the Hunter squadrons who spent every lunchtime in the officers' mess bar!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
We had the NF14s at 1 ANS at Stradishall. One, on a landaway, was discovered to have a leaking ventral. It was 'ferried' back to Stradishall on internals only via Aklington, Middleton, Leconfield, possibly Strubby and thence Stradishall.
No rumours in the bazaars about FTC meatboxes pranging but then we nav studes did not get involved in SCT.
No rumours in the bazaars about FTC meatboxes pranging but then we nav studes did not get involved in SCT.
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Strange that this thread should be resurrected now...
http://www.sheffieldtoday.net/ViewAr...icleID=1026481
13 May 2005
Memorial stone to pilot who crashed in Peak District:
RELATIVES of a tragic teenage pilot who died when his jet fighter crashed into a Peak District farm 50 years ago joined villagers for the unveiling of a stone in his memory.
Surviving relatives of forgotten pilot Officer Robert Anthony Tritton, aged just 19 at the time of his death, gathered in the hamlet of Millthorpe near Holmesfield in North Derbyshire yesterday for a memorial ceremony - on the 50th anniversary of the crash.
Officer Tritton's sister Marianne Cambridge was just 12 at the time of the accident and still has vivid memories of the news filtering through.
She said: "I remember the telegraph coming through - that's how we found out - and my mother just collapsed. It was just unbelieveable really. We were all absolutely devastated."
The teenage pilot was flying a Gloster Meteor fighter jet based at RAF Worksop when he crashed into Brookside Farm on Mill Lane, Millthorpe, at 3.25pm on May 12, 1955.
http://www.sheffieldtoday.net/ViewAr...icleID=1026481
13 May 2005
Memorial stone to pilot who crashed in Peak District:
RELATIVES of a tragic teenage pilot who died when his jet fighter crashed into a Peak District farm 50 years ago joined villagers for the unveiling of a stone in his memory.
Surviving relatives of forgotten pilot Officer Robert Anthony Tritton, aged just 19 at the time of his death, gathered in the hamlet of Millthorpe near Holmesfield in North Derbyshire yesterday for a memorial ceremony - on the 50th anniversary of the crash.
Officer Tritton's sister Marianne Cambridge was just 12 at the time of the accident and still has vivid memories of the news filtering through.
She said: "I remember the telegraph coming through - that's how we found out - and my mother just collapsed. It was just unbelieveable really. We were all absolutely devastated."
The teenage pilot was flying a Gloster Meteor fighter jet based at RAF Worksop when he crashed into Brookside Farm on Mill Lane, Millthorpe, at 3.25pm on May 12, 1955.
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The Meatbox was virtually viceless, if you observed a very few simple rules:
Never pop your airbrakes with the gear down
When asymmetric, never let your speed fall below Vmc (about 140 kts) until 400 ft. You are then committed to land.
In event of control loss at M0.8 or over, throttle back, pop the airbrakes and let warmer air lower down sort it out.
Many blokes converted direct from Spits/Tempests/Hornets on their squadrons without benefit of any T7 rides with a QFI
The stall was straightforward with plenty of warning - no sign of flicking except due to compressibility at high Mach. The spin, difficult to provoke, was gentlemanly and recovery textbook. Inverted spins required gross mishandling.
Many chaps used to piston fighters (and myself who converted direct from Harvards) found the fuel consumption at low/medium level and the short endurance nerve-wracking. This was exacerbated by the lack of any on-board nav aid in the earlier Marks. Later models in Fighter Command service had an early form of DME. In FTC, where I was a QFI, and in the Middle East all we had were two VHF boxes (which shared a common power supply).
The Mk 4s in service at the AFSs, and the early T7s, had vacuum-driven instruments with restricted toppling limits and extended re-erection times. After an aerobatic exercise above cloud the earlier part of the QGH (Controlled Descent Through Cloud) and perhaps the GCA had to be flown on limited panel (Needle, Ball, Airspeed ) with some help from a vacuum DI if the magnesyn compass settled down enough for it to be uncaged on anything like a reliable heading. The airbrakes were highly effective, so descent attitude was steep, which didn't help. I think there were a fair number of student fatalities at Middleton and Driffield due to lads getting into spirals and "losing it". Due to the Korean War build-up there was a degree of pressure to graduate courses on time . Students were probably sent off solo in weather with which they could not cope. Neither the Mk 4s, used for solo flying, nor the T7s were pressurised or had ejection seats. A number of students were believed to have died because they forgot to connect themselves to the old economiser oxygen system - or their tube came undone in flight.
I never heard of anyone losing an engine. The Derwents were remarkably reliable. The only excuse for practising asymmetric was the "range/endurance" case. SFC in the old centrifugal engines was most dependent on rpm. When trying to stretch the range or loiter time it was usual to shut down one engine and fly at higher rpm on the other. No 1 engine fed from the front tank and No 2 from the rear, so it was usual to shut down No 2 so that, with the balance cock open, fuel would drain to the front tank during descent. Shutting down No 2 lost the hydraulic pump and the accumulator held enough pressure for one cycle of airbrakes In, flaps Down and u/c Down. A single-engine missed approach involved pumping up the u/c with an emergency handpump while holding on full left rudder - a sporting occupation, that was demonstrated pre-solo and usually required on FHT. I believe that if asymmetric handling had only been demonstrated and not taught, and forbidden to solo students, many lives would have been saved. But you know the CFS culture; if the aircraft is capable of a manoeuvre, that manoeuvre should be taught.
Many more lives would have been spared if FTC and MEAF had told Fighter Command to sod off and bought some ADFs.
The Meatbox was not a delight to fly like the Hunter. But if you were lucky enough to "own" one with all the later mods (spring-tab ailerons, clear-view canopy, "deep-breathers", bang-seat) like my own flight commander's conveyance on 208, there was nothing to complain about. In many situations I would rather have two Derwents than one Avon.
There was nothing wrong with the position of the HP cocks and relight buttons. As a QFI you had to watch out when you pulled the starboard HP cock just after take-off, with the student flying, to simulate an engine failure . Apart from covering the rudder in case he took a bootful of the wrong rudder, you then had to cover the port HP cock in case he tried to pull that off instead of raising the fuel balance cock, which was conveniently situated right alongside it. This happened to a flight commander at Middleton doing a FHT - the only successful dead-stick arrival in a pasture I ever heard of. They were both very lucky.
I apologise for for living up to my nom-de-plume
Reading back over this thread, I see I wrote the same sort of cr*p back in Nov 02. Sorry!
Never pop your airbrakes with the gear down
When asymmetric, never let your speed fall below Vmc (about 140 kts) until 400 ft. You are then committed to land.
In event of control loss at M0.8 or over, throttle back, pop the airbrakes and let warmer air lower down sort it out.
Many blokes converted direct from Spits/Tempests/Hornets on their squadrons without benefit of any T7 rides with a QFI
The stall was straightforward with plenty of warning - no sign of flicking except due to compressibility at high Mach. The spin, difficult to provoke, was gentlemanly and recovery textbook. Inverted spins required gross mishandling.
Many chaps used to piston fighters (and myself who converted direct from Harvards) found the fuel consumption at low/medium level and the short endurance nerve-wracking. This was exacerbated by the lack of any on-board nav aid in the earlier Marks. Later models in Fighter Command service had an early form of DME. In FTC, where I was a QFI, and in the Middle East all we had were two VHF boxes (which shared a common power supply).
The Mk 4s in service at the AFSs, and the early T7s, had vacuum-driven instruments with restricted toppling limits and extended re-erection times. After an aerobatic exercise above cloud the earlier part of the QGH (Controlled Descent Through Cloud) and perhaps the GCA had to be flown on limited panel (Needle, Ball, Airspeed ) with some help from a vacuum DI if the magnesyn compass settled down enough for it to be uncaged on anything like a reliable heading. The airbrakes were highly effective, so descent attitude was steep, which didn't help. I think there were a fair number of student fatalities at Middleton and Driffield due to lads getting into spirals and "losing it". Due to the Korean War build-up there was a degree of pressure to graduate courses on time . Students were probably sent off solo in weather with which they could not cope. Neither the Mk 4s, used for solo flying, nor the T7s were pressurised or had ejection seats. A number of students were believed to have died because they forgot to connect themselves to the old economiser oxygen system - or their tube came undone in flight.
I never heard of anyone losing an engine. The Derwents were remarkably reliable. The only excuse for practising asymmetric was the "range/endurance" case. SFC in the old centrifugal engines was most dependent on rpm. When trying to stretch the range or loiter time it was usual to shut down one engine and fly at higher rpm on the other. No 1 engine fed from the front tank and No 2 from the rear, so it was usual to shut down No 2 so that, with the balance cock open, fuel would drain to the front tank during descent. Shutting down No 2 lost the hydraulic pump and the accumulator held enough pressure for one cycle of airbrakes In, flaps Down and u/c Down. A single-engine missed approach involved pumping up the u/c with an emergency handpump while holding on full left rudder - a sporting occupation, that was demonstrated pre-solo and usually required on FHT. I believe that if asymmetric handling had only been demonstrated and not taught, and forbidden to solo students, many lives would have been saved. But you know the CFS culture; if the aircraft is capable of a manoeuvre, that manoeuvre should be taught.
Many more lives would have been spared if FTC and MEAF had told Fighter Command to sod off and bought some ADFs.
The Meatbox was not a delight to fly like the Hunter. But if you were lucky enough to "own" one with all the later mods (spring-tab ailerons, clear-view canopy, "deep-breathers", bang-seat) like my own flight commander's conveyance on 208, there was nothing to complain about. In many situations I would rather have two Derwents than one Avon.
There was nothing wrong with the position of the HP cocks and relight buttons. As a QFI you had to watch out when you pulled the starboard HP cock just after take-off, with the student flying, to simulate an engine failure . Apart from covering the rudder in case he took a bootful of the wrong rudder, you then had to cover the port HP cock in case he tried to pull that off instead of raising the fuel balance cock, which was conveniently situated right alongside it. This happened to a flight commander at Middleton doing a FHT - the only successful dead-stick arrival in a pasture I ever heard of. They were both very lucky.
I apologise for for living up to my nom-de-plume
Reading back over this thread, I see I wrote the same sort of cr*p back in Nov 02. Sorry!
Last edited by Flatus Veteranus; 15th May 2005 at 20:27.
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Fascinating thread. Puts into perspective the modern computer controlled, reliable machines we fly now - where human factors are more likely to be the root of disaster than mechanical failure. Thankfully we don't have the same loss rate anymore. Much respect to the guys who learned their stuff the hard way.
Incidentally, I witnessed the Vintage Pair accident at Mildenhall back in 1985 (my first, but sadly not last, exposure to the risks of aviation)- was that caused by a Meteor phenomenon as described above?
Incidentally, I witnessed the Vintage Pair accident at Mildenhall back in 1985 (my first, but sadly not last, exposure to the risks of aviation)- was that caused by a Meteor phenomenon as described above?
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That tragic accident in 1985, I believe took the life of a friend of mine, Flt Lt PS! VERY nice guy. You may be right, he may have been caught out, but great guy none the less!
That Mildenhall accident was the result of the Vampire and Meteor 'brushing' wings IIRC. The Meteor continued flying along for long enough that you were sure they'd have got out had they had ejection seats. The Vampire stalled and went in vertically, but because it did have bang seats both occupants got out. I was chatting to an old UAS chum (an eng officer, Jim Evans, wonder what happened to him) looking at a visibly cracked 43 Squadron Phantom!
The Coventry airshow Meteor T7 crash of 30 May 1988 was the result of the 'phantom dive'. Wasn't that the one in which PS was killed?
The Mildenhall airshow collision of 25 May 1986 which destroyed the Vintage Pair (Meteor T7 and Vampire T11), in which both occupants of the Meteor were killed was NOT caused by the 'phantom dive'. I was later told that it was the direct result of a change in the display routine and, as a result, the 'wrong' aircraft was leading. Earlier Vintage Pair pilots had allegedly advised that the formation should not be constituted in the way it was when the fatal collision occurred. A totally avoidable accident which, in addition to the fatalities, destroyed 2 rare aeroplanes..... The Accident Report uncovered quite a few organisational failures as well, if I recall correctly.
And yet the 'Pair's Meteor T7 'Clementine' had survived years of target towing at Chivenor and Brawdy without even a scratch.
The Mildenhall airshow collision of 25 May 1986 which destroyed the Vintage Pair (Meteor T7 and Vampire T11), in which both occupants of the Meteor were killed was NOT caused by the 'phantom dive'. I was later told that it was the direct result of a change in the display routine and, as a result, the 'wrong' aircraft was leading. Earlier Vintage Pair pilots had allegedly advised that the formation should not be constituted in the way it was when the fatal collision occurred. A totally avoidable accident which, in addition to the fatalities, destroyed 2 rare aeroplanes..... The Accident Report uncovered quite a few organisational failures as well, if I recall correctly.
And yet the 'Pair's Meteor T7 'Clementine' had survived years of target towing at Chivenor and Brawdy without even a scratch.
Last edited by BEagle; 15th May 2005 at 08:07.