Gaza Air War
The IDF may have all the gear, but Hamas have home advantage. People set much store by Israeli Intelligence but they failed to detect the preparations for the Hamas attack which were allegedly long in the making. It remains to be seen just how much they really know of Hamas and its defences. FIBUA is a dark art, especially if the other side have had time to prepare the ground. The temptation to raze the ground must be strong, even with all the collateral damage and civilian casualties that implies. The resultant destruction may well be critical for the allies of both sides, reducing support for Israel and increasing support for Palestine. There is a fine line to be trod.
If I may follow on to Ninthace's point (the advantage of playing on home field):
what anti-air methods or kit do Hamas have that they have not yet revealed?
One can probably assume at least a few MANPAD variants, but (1) how many are still in play, and more importantly, (2) where did they come from?
what anti-air methods or kit do Hamas have that they have not yet revealed?
One can probably assume at least a few MANPAD variants, but (1) how many are still in play, and more importantly, (2) where did they come from?
Some years back, the USMC was developing something like a drone (90's: basically a 'finestron facing up') that was intended as a tool for MOUT in terms of eyes and ears for the ground forces (on foot and on wheels/tracks).
Drones, UAV's and RPV's have improved a lot since then, and it was one of those R&D projects that didn't quite pan out.
Drones, UAV's and RPV's have improved a lot since then, and it was one of those R&D projects that didn't quite pan out.
To return to the air war if I may. I was watching a BBC report yesterday evening. There was the constant noise of what sounded like a drone overhead, and the reporter was frequently twitching as another piece of ordnance found its way home behind him. Definitely, not a job I would want, but it shows how committed these people are to getting information out about what is going on, brave people.
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Restored, as relevant to military operations in a densely populated region adjacent to the current conflict, but placed in a spoiler.
T28B
Back on track. Last year the IDF confirmed the Hermes-450 would be used to strike targets in the West Bank. What is their payload.
Restored, as relevant to military operations in a densely populated region adjacent to the current conflict, but placed in a spoiler.
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Last edited by T28B; 24th Oct 2023 at 21:21. Reason: After discussion with member on relevance
Also, go through the Ukraine thread and tell me every post is wholly concerned with the air war and nothing more.
The difference between the Ukraine and the Gaza threads is that everyone here seems to be of a similar mindset when it comes to Ukraine, and so off topic divergence is tolerated. That's all.
Where does the air war begin and end? There's a reason for every bomb dropped and a consequence for it also. Surely those are both part of the 'air war' as much as the act of dropping the bomb. If not, it's not a real conversation.
Also, go through the Ukraine thread and tell me every post is wholly concerned with the air war and nothing more.
The difference between the Ukraine and the Gaza threads is that everyone here seems to be of a similar mindset when it comes to Ukraine, and so off topic divergence is tolerated. That's all.
Also, go through the Ukraine thread and tell me every post is wholly concerned with the air war and nothing more.
The difference between the Ukraine and the Gaza threads is that everyone here seems to be of a similar mindset when it comes to Ukraine, and so off topic divergence is tolerated. That's all.
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Where does the air war begin and end? There's a reason for every bomb dropped and a consequence for it also. Surely those are both part of the 'air war' as much as the act of dropping the bomb. If not, it's not a real conversation.
Also, go through the Ukraine thread and tell me every post is wholly concerned with the air war and nothing more.
The difference between the Ukraine and the Gaza threads is that everyone here seems to be of a similar mindset when it comes to Ukraine, and so off topic divergence is tolerated. That's all.
Also, go through the Ukraine thread and tell me every post is wholly concerned with the air war and nothing more.
The difference between the Ukraine and the Gaza threads is that everyone here seems to be of a similar mindset when it comes to Ukraine, and so off topic divergence is tolerated. That's all.
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But they are intertwined VM, I was the one that mentioned the tanks in passing, but in that it also brought up the subject of drones operating with the armour to show the crews what is happening around them. which is, or could be seen as a modern part of the airwar, apologies for the drift, but I learnt something from it re the drones.
You are the reincarnation of Julio Douhet, and I claim my 5 pounds. 
Sorry, that's just wrong. There is lots of material on the ground war in the Ukraine thread. It isn't just the air war. VM is right.
Back to aviation and war:
Reporters looking up, and being nervous/afraid when a drone is over head and bombs are falling is exactly what they signed up for.
You want to cover a war? You may die doing so. Ernie Pyle, among others, lost his life covering a war.
Chris Hedges wrote an interesting book about wars and covering wars: War is a Force That Gives us Meaning.
He had spent about twenty years asan adrenaline junkie a war reporter, covering wars large and small all over the world.
Also, go through the Ukraine thread and tell me every post is wholly concerned with the air war and nothing more.
Back to aviation and war:
Reporters looking up, and being nervous/afraid when a drone is over head and bombs are falling is exactly what they signed up for.
You want to cover a war? You may die doing so. Ernie Pyle, among others, lost his life covering a war.
Chris Hedges wrote an interesting book about wars and covering wars: War is a Force That Gives us Meaning.
He had spent about twenty years as
You are the reincarnation of Julio Douhet, and I claim my 5 pounds.
Sorry, that's just wrong. There is lots of material on the ground war in the Ukraine thread. It isn't just the air war.
Can you have an Air War when only one side has an Air Force? More flying artillery at the moment I would have thought, Still it makes a useful place holder in case Israel's Air Supremacy over Gaza is ever challenged. Who could or would?
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T28B
Of course there can. Half of the point of Air Power is to deny the enemy the capacity to operate in the air. Trying to achieve Air Superiority/Air Supremacy is part of any air campaign. (Off Topic: that aspect is one of the big downfalls of the Russian air campaign in Ukraine since Feb of 2022. Neither side has it at the moment, and that has a significant impact on using air power both offensively and defensively).
Also, defense in the air war matters. See my post a few back about MANPADS. (Surface to air missiles carried by a soldier/fighter).
There is a lot more to the air war than flying artillery. As but one example, the leaflet drops are an aspect of airpower that supports the information war (or tries to).
As I noted above: defense matters in the air war. See again MANPADS.
For the moment, I think you are correct in characterizing Air Supremacy as the position that the IAF is in. That means that they have the edge in using air. With that said, MOUT with tight RoE puts its own constraints on air power.
I am not sure what level of Air Defense Hamas would need to have or obtain to challenge that. We'll see.
Also, defense in the air war matters. See my post a few back about MANPADS. (Surface to air missiles carried by a soldier/fighter).
More flying artillery at the moment I would have thought
Still it makes a useful place holder in case Israel's Air Supremacy over Gaza is ever challenged. Who could or would?
For the moment, I think you are correct in characterizing Air Supremacy as the position that the IAF is in. That means that they have the edge in using air. With that said, MOUT with tight RoE puts its own constraints on air power.
I am not sure what level of Air Defense Hamas would need to have or obtain to challenge that. We'll see.
That argument only really holds water if the other side is capable of having an Air Force, This is just one sided, even the MANPADS argument does not hold water when weapons can be released beyond the range of those defences, There really isn't proper air campaign to be had a present, and a few psyops does not really detract from the flying artillery argument, which is pretty much the desired end state of any air campaign. i.e. the freedom to roam the skies with little or no interference and the ability to interdict the enemy on the ground at will.
Last edited by Saab Dastard; 24th Oct 2023 at 21:19. Reason: Removed gratuitous insult
In Iraq, there was an air campaign because the allies had to rapidly gain air superiority and then achieve and maintain supremacy so that the ground campaign could proceed and the Ground element could be the supported commander. I argue that has already been achieved in this campaign as there was no enemy Air force to begin with, unless you count a handful of paramotors, and the IAF is in a position to maintain a constant presence over the battlefield.
Unless another nation becomes involved, that is unlikely to change. As I see it, the only significant challenges left are addressing this threat and support to the Ground Commander.
Unless another nation becomes involved, that is unlikely to change. As I see it, the only significant challenges left are addressing this threat and support to the Ground Commander.