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Gaza Air War

Old 12th Oct 2023, 19:36
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Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
One suspects all the IAF attacks are medium level. Last time I think anyone got close to shooting down a fast jet with an AK47 was a French Jaguar? The Jag was flying very low at the time over Al Jaber. Round scalped the pilots head.
FJ in Afghan took small arms rounds during shows of force and had to have BDR carried out.

Last edited by downsizer; 13th Oct 2023 at 07:14.
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Old 12th Oct 2023, 21:29
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Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
One suspects all the IAF attacks are medium level. Last time I think anyone got close to shooting down a fast jet with an AK47 was a French Jaguar? The Jag was flying very low at the time over Al Jaber. Round scalped the pilots head.
Was surprised to actually see an IAF jet ( couldn't tell if it was F16 or F15 ) on the Reuters Live feed over Gaza. Popping lots of flares before climbing away. Intrigued to know what the air defence threat is from Hamas. I believe they do have SA7 and 9K38 Igla manpad systems.
Not sure how much of a threat they pose to modern fast jets but certainly more than just AK-47's

Hutch
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Old 12th Oct 2023, 21:49
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Originally Posted by HUTCHP
Was surprised to actually see an IAF jet ( couldn't tell if it was F16 or F15 ) on the Reuters Live feed over Gaza. Popping lots of flares before climbing away. Intrigued to know what the air defence threat is from Hamas. I believe they do have SA7 (Grail/Strela) and 9K38 Igla manpad systems.
Not sure how much of a threat they pose to modern fast jets but certainly more than just AK-47's
Hutch
There was some more modern stuff than SA-7 available to various bad actors in Afghanistan back in the 00's. (Igla being but one example).
Hezbollah, and more importantly Iran's IRGC/Quds, work with and support Hamas. The odds that they have supplied them with up-to-date kit is pretty good.
FWIW: an SA-7 will hurt you if you aren't wary (provided that the person firing it knows what they are doing).
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 00:39
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How can a country with a population of only 10 million people crew a thousand combat aircraft, when we a country of approx 70 million struggle to crew 200?
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 01:19
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Naive question - in terms of engaging using air power, how difficult would it be for an IAF fast jet to engage a Hamas powered paraglider in an area where there are lots of manpads?
Assume an F-35 or F-16 would easily be able to get a lock on the paragilder to engage from higher altitude I would imagine, but a missile engagement would be very wasteful in terms of $$$.
Flying low enough to engage with guns would put you in range of manpads - right?
Assume an Apache cannon engagement would be more effective and practicable.
Reason I ask is it actually seemed like a pretty cunning way to infiltrate from the air.
Low cost, slow, probably hard to pick up against ground clutter and very STOL.
Of course the easiest way to kill them would be to just shoot at them using an SLR from the ground...
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 01:42
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Originally Posted by tonker
How can a country with a population of only 10 million people crew a thousand combat aircraft, when we a country of approx 70 million struggle to crew 200?
They decided it was important enough to devote resources to being able to do that, at the cost of other choices.
Also, they have land borders abutting countries filled with people who want to kill them all.
The UK is lucky that they are not in that situation.
Originally Posted by tartare
Naive question - in terms of engaging using air power, how difficult would it be for an IAF fast jet to engage a Hamas powered paraglider in an area where there are lots of manpads?
Not seeing fast jet as a best tool there, but certainly a capable tool. Your Apache guess strikes me as more apt.
Assume an Apache cannon engagement would be more effective and practicable.
Reason I ask is it actually seemed like a pretty cunning way to infiltrate from the air.
Low cost, slow, probably hard to pick up against ground clutter and very STOL.
Of course the easiest way to kill them would be to just shoot at them using an SLR from the ground...
That's why they came at night, I suspect. Small/low radar signature, in the ground clutter, hard to see.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 08:59
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So we have sent one P-8 to the Eastern Med, which represents more than 10% of the fleet. Meanwhile the Faroes Gap, UK waters, the Baltic and the Black Seas still need monitoring. Another example that the UK is now an asset-light military. (Did we hear much about defence at the two major party conferences in the last month?)
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 09:22
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Originally Posted by skua
So we have sent one P-8 to the Eastern Med, which represents more than 10% of the fleet. Meanwhile the Faroes Gap, UK waters, the Baltic and the Black Seas still need monitoring. Another example that the UK is now an asset-light military. (Did we hear much about defence at the two major party conferences in the last month?)
Actually from Labour (surprisingly) we did. John Healey (Shadow defence Sec) ripped into the way the armed forces have been "hollowed out and underfunded" and promised that they would spend more of our GDP on defence. We wait to see what actually happens, but it did sound like they know things are bad and need sorting. Then again, so does everything else...

Anyway, back to Israel and Hamas.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 10:02
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Originally Posted by skua
So we have sent one P-8 to the Eastern Med, which represents more than 10% of the fleet. Meanwhile the Faroes Gap, UK waters, the Baltic and the Black Seas still need monitoring. Another example that the UK is now an asset-light military. (Did we hear much about defence at the two major party conferences in the last month?)
Mission is stated to be "....track threats to regional stability such as the transfer of weapons to terrorist groups". Does that mean if the P8 detects suspicious shipping they will inform the IDF who will investigate or will that be down to the Merlin and Marines ?

Sending two Royal Navy ships which"....are.not warships, but "ships that can assist with hospital facilities". seems a better idea.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 10:09
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Originally Posted by tartare
Naive question - in terms of engaging using air power, how difficult would it be for an IAF fast jet to engage a Hamas powered paraglider in an area where there are lots of manpads?
Assume an F-35 or F-16 would easily be able to get a lock on the paragilder to engage from higher altitude I would imagine, but a missile engagement would be very wasteful in terms of $$$.
Flying low enough to engage with guns would put you in range of manpads - right?
Assume an Apache cannon engagement would be more effective and practicable.
Reason I ask is it actually seemed like a pretty cunning way to infiltrate from the air.
Low cost, slow, probably hard to pick up against ground clutter and very STOL.
Of course the easiest way to kill them would be to just shoot at them using an SLR from the ground...
The issue with the paraglider scenario is that it falls in to the zone rejected by Radar software due to its low speed. It will also be quite close to ground clutter. This can make them hard to detect and track, so you would need to do something like patrol for them.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 10:41
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Originally Posted by tartare
Naive question - in terms of engaging using air power, how difficult would it be for an IAF fast jet to engage a Hamas powered paraglider in an area where there are lots of manpads?
Assume an F-35 or F-16 would easily be able to get a lock on the paragilder to engage from higher altitude I would imagine, but a missile engagement would be very wasteful in terms of $$$.
The problem with these para gliders is not shooting them down. Problem in this case was time in the air. To cover those 5- 10km they did fly takes them less time than to start up a jet engine and get a fighter in the air. And that is assuming that AD Radar was detecting them in time. So in this case and geography a purely hypothetical question.
A distributed drone force placed close to the border fence might be a better option to engage these kind of threats in future. If I were in Israels shoes I would ask our Ukrainian Friends for advice...
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 11:53
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Originally Posted by HUTCHP
Was surprised to actually see an IAF jet ( couldn't tell if it was F16 or F15 ) on the Reuters Live feed over Gaza. Popping lots of flares before climbing away. Intrigued to know what the air defence threat is from Hamas. I believe they do have SA7 and 9K38 Igla manpad systems.
Not sure how much of a threat they pose to modern fast jets but certainly more than just AK-47's

Hutch
Given how small Gaza is, why would any Israeli jet need to over fly it, or even to put itself within range of SAMs/MANPADSs? Even dumb munitions could surely be dropped from far enough away.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 12:19
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As for the para gliders a drone in the face might work.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 13:39
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Originally Posted by tonker
How can a country with a population of only 10 million people crew a thousand combat aircraft, when we a country of approx 70 million struggle to crew 200?
Similarly, will be interesting to see how Qatar will be able to crew as many as 168 new combat aircraft (not to mention new helicopters, etc) with a citizen population of about 300,000.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 13:51
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
As for the para gliders a drone in the face might work.
Or shredding the control lines or a small explosive or incendiary charge or you install an SMG. Be creative.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 14:01
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Somehow I suspect that a paramotor or similar would be an almost impossible target for a FJ unless it used jet blast/wake to upset it, and that would be quite a trick. Well trained helicopter pilots can evade a FJ with wase unless multiple jets act as a team.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 14:11
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Meleagertoo

Whilst we obviously donít discuss tactics and the intimate details of modern weapons systems on this forum, I fear your statement that a helicopter can avoid an attacking FJ with ease may be a tad outdated. Whilst that may once have been true Iím not so sure that is still the case. I feel sure that a helicopter that is engaged outside of their visual scan by a FJ equipped with a weapon of similar abilities to an ASRAAM is probably not going to live to tell the tale.

Also, Iím not sure that FJs against paramotors is a great use of assets. Iím also not sure that Hamas would have quite so much luck as they did during their first attacks. Now their tactic has been revealed I feel sure that anyone suspended beneath a large paraglider that crosses from Palestine into Israel in the present climate will likely be faced by a hail of gunfire from which they will probably not emerge unscathed.

BV
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 15:41
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
Similarly, will be interesting to see how Qatar will be able to crew as many as 168 new combat aircraft (not to mention new helicopters, etc) with a citizen population of about 300,000.
Do you expect their readiness rate to be 100%.
They may only need 100 crews.
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
Whilst we obviously don’t discuss tactics and the intimate details of modern weapons systems on this forum, I fear your statement that a helicopter can avoid an attacking FJ with ease may be a tad outdated. Whilst that may once have been true I’m not so sure that is still the case. I feel sure that a helicopter that is engaged outside of their visual scan by a FJ equipped with a weapon of similar abilities to an ASRAAM is probably not going to live to tell the tale.
Yes, there are situations that helicopters can do well versus FJ but there are also situations where they do not.

I may be off base in mentioning the lack of difficulty (a quarter of a century ago) that a couple of F-15's had in knocking a couple of Blackhawks out of the air ... the Blackhawks were obviously unalerted and not in a combat state of mind. There is the adage from Von Richtoffen and others about "whomever sees the other first tends to win the air-to-air engagement" which I think applies here. Given the advances in low light cameras, visual sensors, various high tech targeting pods, IR sensors, etcetera (I will only speak generically here) the "I see you first" weapons engagement of a target that doesn't know that it's been spotted tends to favor the FJ in many cases.

Caveat: I've been out of the business for a few years, so take all of that with a grain of salt.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 13th Oct 2023 at 15:54.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 16:09
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Watching the Al Jazzera coverage and once the skies are dark, you can hear a piston engined aircraft in the background. What would that be?
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 16:16
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My first Helo kill was with wing-tip vortices but as mentioned, this is probably not good use of FJ in this theatre of war.

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