Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

Old 10th Jun 2023, 01:28
  #241 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,763
Received 245 Likes on 96 Posts
Yes. The frangible hatch was a late modification to just some Sea Vixen FAW 2s to allow the observer to eject through it rather than having his seat launch delayed whilst the hatch was jettisoned.

The 'Vixen in which I flew had not been so modified.
BEagle is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 10th Jun 2023, 11:48
  #242 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: east ESSEX
Posts: 4,573
Received 62 Likes on 37 Posts
Refer to the London Gazette for `Lt Cdr Alan Tarver,GM,RN`,for problems ejecting from the Vixen..
Al was a TP at AAEE later
He died earlier this year....

Sorry ,can`t do links....
sycamore is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2023, 22:56
  #243 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 567
Received 55 Likes on 13 Posts
On the 16/06/64 at the age of 15 as a member of 781 ATC Squadron I flew in an Air Display aboard Shackelton WR977 out of St Mawgan. By memory I think it was over Exeter. (We didn't land just a few beat-ups). The pilot's name was Fielding. I sat in the nose gunners' position with two 20mm cannon barrels leading the way. So, I don't think there were any restrictions back then.

As a useless heterosexual white male, I subsequently had a marvellous 50 year flying career. I wouldn't fancy my chances these days unless I had an operation.
By George is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 10th Jun 2023, 23:12
  #244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wildest Surrey
Age: 75
Posts: 10,760
Received 81 Likes on 60 Posts
We had some Sea Vixens at RAE Farnborough in about 1976; they were being 'modded' in order to become drones to operate out of Llanbedr. The FR test pilot would fly in from Tarrant Rushton to test fly them but on one occasion, he was a bit too enthusiastic when getting on board and leapt into the cockpit striking his forehead on the edge of the canopy as he did so and he had to be trucked off to hospital for treatment.
chevvron is offline  
Old 11th Jun 2023, 04:42
  #245 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 5,824
Received 343 Likes on 182 Posts
megan is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 14th Jun 2023, 01:42
  #246 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Oka
Posts: 43
Received 10 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Tranquility Base
Do we want to celebrate, champion and promote diversity at all costs? This is actually counterproductive to social integration.

By highlighting differences aren’t we actually exacerbating the problem? Surely we need to arrive at a point where ethnicity, colour, religion, gender etc is irrelevant, and only ‘Performance’ is the consideration. If certain groups are underrepresented then that’s society’s problem to fix and should not be artificially engineered. There is no place for quotas in a ‘safety critical’ role such as the military.

If positive discrimination is allowed then this will cause division, and undermine the all important morale of the services. I’m all for ‘positive encouragement’ for those underrepresented but restricting ‘white males’ is not the answer.
The problem with this is that you end up trying to solve a problem without doing anything to fix it.

If the only applicants you receive are white males then that’s all you can recruit.

The obvious answer is to go looking for and encouraging applicants who don’t happen to be white males and put them through the same selection process.

What you are saying is we shouldn’t do that.

So if we can’t do that, if we can’t look for and encourage diverse applicants, then what exactly can we do?

At the heart of all this is whether we want the best applicants, or only the best white male applicants. I think we want the former. Which part of that do you dispute?

Last edited by Bbtengineer; 14th Jun 2023 at 01:54.
Bbtengineer is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 14th Jun 2023, 04:26
  #247 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: 43N
Posts: 177
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
Your last statement may be true. But only if those non-white males and females have been denied the opportunity because of their race or gender.

I don’t want to be a midwife. Do you think that hospitals should be forced to hire 50% male midwives? After all, that would be inclusive and equal.

Before becoming a pilot I was a qualified primary school teacher of 7-11 year olds. I was overwhelmingly surrounded by females in every school I taught in. Should schools be forced to hire 50% male teachers?

Can you see my point or do you wish to keep rattling off the same old arguments that got us to where we are today?

If you want to see racism come to the region of the world in which I currently work. Trust me when I say it isn’t the white people dishing it out here.

Does racism exist in Britain? Almost certainly in some corners. Do I think our armed forces are racist in their recruiting practices by dint of the fact there aren’t higher numbers of people of non-white origin? I think you already know the answer but you think it makes you big and clever to trot out tired old stories from 60 years ago.

BV
I made a comment on this thread largely out of out of topic only from the major airline and mostly American perspective. Working environments in private companies in Japan, Korea, and Abu Dhabi I am familiar with. Nobody ever pretended a promise of equality and in fact it is made explicitly clear nationals come first and even if completely incompetent and there own national females are abnormal. Never expected anymore of them. Their country. Not a citizen. No statement in their Constitution applies as far as I know.

Meanwhile in 2023 no white male in the USA is possibly aggrieved. That is why to me they are sickening dinosaurs. If they think so they have likely been propagandized by mainstream media and the demagogue politicians, or worse. Actual died in the wool racists. Similarly it is impossible for a non-white person in the US to be a racist. They may be a hateful bigot but there is no way they can enjoy the entitlement of privilege in a white rascist power structure.
Koan is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 14th Jun 2023, 05:09
  #248 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,336
Received 382 Likes on 89 Posts
Koan

I was pretty clear that I was taking about UK experiences and the specific thrust of this thread.

I have visited the US extensively (32 different states) and I would say it is clear that your country has an enormous problem with racism and inequality of opportunity. The UK is a very different kettle of fish and the two should not be compared on equal terms.

As I previously said, there will still be pockets in the UK where racists exist and it is not perfect but my world travels have shown me that there are very few, if any, countries as well integrated as the UK. In the microcosm of RAF recruiting I’d say it’s clear that being of non-white, male origin is no barrier to successful selection.

BV
Bob Viking is offline  
The following 4 users liked this post by Bob Viking:
Old 14th Jun 2023, 08:58
  #249 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Gloucs
Posts: 41
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
I would also offer that being of non-white, female origin is no barrier to successful selection.
Stratnumberone is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2023, 09:06
  #250 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rural England, thank God.
Posts: 716
Received 18 Likes on 10 Posts
It must be a legacy of Wiggo that the last Air & Space Power reveiw to be published in his tenure (Vol 25, Number 1) contains articles exclusively by female writers .....
skua is online now  
Old 14th Jun 2023, 09:54
  #251 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 3,195
Received 402 Likes on 190 Posts
Originally Posted by Bob Viking
I was pretty clear that I was taking about UK experiences and the specific thrust of this thread.

I have visited the US extensively (32 different states) and I would say it is clear that your country has an enormous problem with racism and inequality of opportunity. The UK is a very different kettle of fish and the two should not be compared on equal terms.

As I previously said, there will still be pockets in the UK where racists exist and it is not perfect but my world travels have shown me that there are very few, if any, countries as well integrated as the UK. In the microcosm of RAF recruiting I’d say it’s clear that being of non-white, male origin is no barrier to successful selection.

BV
I broadly agree. Also add Australia to successful integration as far as extensive stays in Canberra, Brisbane and Perth suggest to me. The blight on that picture is of course the issue of the original native Australians [sorry, not up to date as to the correct term] and I would not presume to offer an opinion and certainly not a judgement.
langleybaston is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2023, 10:47
  #252 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,336
Received 382 Likes on 89 Posts
Agreed

Originally Posted by Stratnumberone
I would also offer that being of non-white, female origin is no barrier to successful selection.
My wording wasn’t quite right and I should have made that clearer.

BV
Bob Viking is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 14th Jun 2023, 11:34
  #253 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Den Haag
Age: 57
Posts: 6,125
Received 272 Likes on 155 Posts
Originally Posted by sycamore
Refer to the London Gazette for `Lt Cdr Alan Tarver,GM,RN`,for problems ejecting from the Vixen..
Al was a TP at AAEE later
He died earlier this year....

Sorry ,can`t do links....
Pretty amazing stuff!
212man is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2023, 13:23
  #254 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: York
Posts: 517
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
While we talk about recent missteps in recruitment, it's notable to recognise that the once incredibly busy stickied thread for wannabes hasn't been posted in for nearly 2 years.

muppetofthenorth is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 14th Jun 2023, 17:02
  #255 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Around
Posts: 1,187
Received 113 Likes on 50 Posts
Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth
While we talk about recent missteps in recruitment, it's notable to recognise that the once incredibly busy stickied thread for wannabes hasn't been posted in for nearly 2 years.
Counter argument could be candidates get their info from relevant sources?
downsizer is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2023, 21:25
  #256 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Age: 53
Posts: 503
Received 40 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by skua
It must be a legacy of Wiggo that the last Air & Space Power reveiw to be published in his tenure (Vol 25, Number 1) contains articles exclusively by female writers .....
https://www.raf.mod.uk/what-we-do/ce...w-vol-25-no-1/

Yes, it looks like he was defiant until the end - there must be one of those Hitler’s last moments in the bunker video memes in this? The rumour is that the investigation into his, and his cronies, woke activities are on short final to land this month. I just hope it’s a damning as the report that made Bojo resign.
iRaven is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2023, 22:50
  #257 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 27
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Gosh. What a load of ovaries.
EGDLaddict is offline  
Old 14th Jun 2023, 23:02
  #258 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 897
Received 10 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth
While we talk about recent missteps in recruitment, it's notable to recognise that the once incredibly busy stickied thread for wannabes hasn't been posted in for nearly 2 years.
Could it possibly be something to do with stories like this breaking through: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47420698

That one is from *2019* - four years ago, as long as the First World War. The culture war yelling is a distraction from the training disaster, much as it is from all other British policy disasters.
steamchicken is offline  
The following users liked this post:
Old 15th Jun 2023, 05:29
  #259 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Age: 75
Posts: 4,378
Received 24 Likes on 14 Posts
And yet, once upon a time...all those Useless White Male Pilots, and Others



John Eacott is offline  
Old 15th Jun 2023, 07:08
  #260 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 5,824
Received 343 Likes on 182 Posts
From the bookshelf John, 30 years earlier, 1940.




Xmas 1954 present.



megan is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.