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‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

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‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

Old 3rd Jun 2023, 14:38
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
I would like to think that everyone in the RAF has tried CTRL-K against his name by now and sent him a message. I don’t know him at all but I have a pretty clear image in my head regarding what kind of person he is.

🔔

BV
DM sent. It won’t surprise you that he is one of our finest Scribbly inhabitants of Handbrake House. They wonder why they have a bad rep!
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Old 3rd Jun 2023, 18:30
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
“You’ll never fly with the RAF as you’re a girl”
My dad said that so I told him about Julie Ann Gibson, Jo Salter, Kirsty Moore, Jules Fleming, Helen Seymour, Victoria Turner, and all of the (at least) 121 women who have been RAF pilots. Do not forget Michelle Goodman (DFC!).

Personally I don't think people should need "role models" and I would happily have been number one if it happened to matter, not that it does. I also agree that nobody should let themselves be put off by one statement, as one prominent youtube fast jet person puts it, make them tell you no.

But in the end, that idiotic statement comes from person who is wrong 121 times and 32 years out of date given Julie Gibson qualified in 1991.
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Old 3rd Jun 2023, 18:44
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Originally Posted by langleybaston
I thought THE TROUBLES were more or less over
The ban on not wearing Uniform outside of work because of the IRA was lifted in the 2000's. The rules may have changed after what happened to Lee Rigby though. I left the service 9 years ago so I have no idea what the rules currently are but in 2008/9 the service wanted us to be seen in uniform in public places.
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Old 3rd Jun 2023, 18:49
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A real shame our servicemen are forced to look over their shoulders in their own country. Better if the security service made Abdul look over his.
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Old 3rd Jun 2023, 20:55
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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoNeverWas
My dad said that so I told him about Julie Ann Gibson, Jo Salter, Kirsty Moore, Jules Fleming, Helen Seymour, Victoria Turner, and all of the (at least) 121 women who have been RAF pilots. Do not forget Michelle Goodman (DFC!).

Personally I don't think people should need "role models" and I would happily have been number one if it happened to matter, not that it does. I also agree that nobody should let themselves be put off by one statement, as one prominent youtube fast jet person puts it, make them tell you no.

But in the end, that idiotic statement comes from person who is wrong 121 times and 32 years out of date given Julie Gibson qualified in 1991.
The sad thing is, even the RAF forgot that Julie was not the first woman to get the RAF Pilot Flying Badge - that honour lay with Fg Off Jean Lennox Bird RAFVR and FOUR others after her from 1952 to 1954. Julie wasn’t even the first Regular Aircrew either - that was Patricia Howard, who went on to become Flt Lt Pat Magill and was an Air Loadmaster from 1968.

https://solentaviatrix.wordpress.com...en-first-five/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patric...ying)%20Branch.

So really, by 1991, this should have been seen as fairly normal as we’d been at it for nearly 40 years by then!
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Old 3rd Jun 2023, 20:57
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In a time of impeding conflict, does it not make sense to pick and train the best candidates for the job? REGARDLESS, of colour, sex, educational qualifications or class.

Where's my tin hat?


Last edited by RichardJones; 3rd Jun 2023 at 23:25.
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Old 3rd Jun 2023, 21:45
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Given that the role of any military force is to prepare itself to win wars and not come second, the selection process should reflect this aim by ensuring it has the best available personnel. The model that comes to mind is our national athletics team where, for instance, the 4 x 100 team is normally nearly all black because they are the best and that is who you want if you are to win. There is no suggestion that this team should reflect the ethnic mix of the country as this would inevitably make it less competitive, similarly we should not undermine the warfighting capability of our forces by imposing arbitrary targets for race, sexual orientation or gender.
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Old 3rd Jun 2023, 22:20
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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoNeverWas
My name is Parminder, which should tell you what I look like, and I am female. I would have joined the RAF to scrub the floors. I had a Cranwell date with every hope of being able to fly, and I withdrew last year because of exactly this.

My parents came to this country in part to give me a better chance and I wanted to give something back and on that basis it feels like about the biggest betrayal possible. I was told I needed to be a reliable and trustworthy person with principles, and I did everything I could to be that person. Now it feels like the organisation which was telling me that was itself not very reliable nor trustworthy and did not have the courage to support its own principles.

I don't want to be a token minority to advance someone else's career or be in a job that I don't even know if I'm really competent to do. I don't want everyone I work with to think hmm, is she actually any good, or is she here for political reasons. I do not want any white males I happen to work with to assume I think they're "useless white males." I don't. Nobody asked me if I wanted this and I don't. I want to succeed on my own merits, I've worked for them. I am not doing it. They can find someone else.

Really sorry to hear you are pulling out of what could be an amazing career. I've been out for several years now and it's possible there has been some change within the organisation but I find it hard to believe the people have changed that much, and in all the time I was serving we had individuals on the Squadrons I worked on who were from all different backgrounds, race, religion and gender and I never saw someone getting a free pass because they were a particular colour, sex, etc, not even when I was a flying instructor, all were treated equally.

You will need to work seriously hard and be super committed and focused to get through flying training irrespective of your background; I think thats one of the amazing things about getting to wear the RAF flying badge, everyone who does get to wear one has genuinely worked their socks off and proved their ability in an incredibly arduous, long, demanding but also fair and uncorrupted (at least when I was in!) training system.

Maybe try to connect with some of the people who are currently serving, going through the training system/have come out the other end and find out what it's actually like as it would be a shame to have come this far through selection and throw in the towel because of some, admittedly abhorrent and inexcusable, racism by some senior RAF officers (who definitely should know better).
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 06:41
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Originally Posted by RichardJones
In a time of impeding conflict, does it not make sense to pick and train the best candidates for the job? REGARDLESS, of colour, sex, educational qualifications or class.
Yup.

Selection on the basis of merit is appropriate.
  • Colour is not relevant to competency, competency is. The Japanese-American 442nd IR RCT was awarded >4000 Purple Hearts, >4000 Bronze stars, and 21 MoH. Out of 3523 MoH's 95 were awarded to black African Americans, one recipient being a double MoH recipient, one of only 19 of those.
  • Gender made no difference with skill as snipers or even fighter pilots. (pretty sure there are days when I wouldn't want to be undertaking 1v1 with my better half).
  • Religion? have a look at Normandy, the headstones are not all catholic.
  • 3 conscientious objectors were awarded MoH's.
  • 1 female was awarded a MoH. 1. WTH.
  • 12 Nepalese were awarded VC's.
  • 29 Indians were awarded VC's,
  • 1 fijian, 1 Grenadan, 2 Maori's, .... VC's. 1 Ukranian...
sexism, racism has no place in selection of competency, to do so ensures that you are diminishing the opportunity to have the best of the best. Equal opportunity should not be a selection bias towards or against one group. There is an inherent background bias that exists that can affect selection, and a preparatory course pre-selection would level that playing field that occurs from socio-economic experiences.

The LT COL guy below did 143 combat missions in Round II, flew 100 more combat missions in Korea as a fighter pilot, and is photographed here in Viet-Nam, with his RF-4C white skinned back seater. He was the CO of the 16th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron (TRS), of the 460th Tactical Reconnaissance Wing, out of TSN.

In spite of racism and segregation the Tuskegee African Americans contributed competency to the allied effort, and produced a number of well respected flag rank officers who served with distinction. There was no positive bias, and as always those of colour or the wrong gender are not reflected in the honours awarded, the system is biased towards it's own ends.

If the UK wishes to have the best staff, the current process is not going to achieve that any more than the prior system did.





Originally Posted by RichardJones
Where's my tin hat?
here's your top cover.
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 07:49
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'Useless white male pilots are clearly not the flavour of the month in the woke establishment:

New TV series will dismantle Colditz ‘mythology’ and show racism of British officers
The adaptation of Colditz: Prisoners of the Castle, by Ben Macintyre, will offer a “21st-century narrative” view of life within its walls.

The book “digs a bit deeper” into the legend. One such legend is that of Douglas Bader, the flying ace who lost both legs in a crash in 1931 but became the RAF’s most celebrated Spitfire pilot during the Second World War.

“Bader was the most famous prisoner in Colditz. He was the most famous fighting soldier on either side during the war. He was an extraordinary man, remarkably brave; he could inspire courage in others.

“But he was also horrible. He was a monster. Bader was racist, snobbish, brutally unpleasant to anybody he considered of lower socio-economic order,”
Dear oh dear. The point about Bader is that fought as hard as he could to defend our country in the face of the biggest threat since the Norman Conquests. He certainly wasn't from a priveleged background and depended on the charity of others to get him through the system. He was a huge inspration to others. Certainly a rough diamond and certainly controversial and that was eighty years ago in a dire national crisis.

This woke lot are all about deconstructing our identity and re building it in some kind of cultural marxist way. I don't know why the Telegraph even bothered to run this story. It seems like they are in on the act too.
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 08:03
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Over the years Bader has been much discussed on this forum.

The overall conclusion was that he was very brave, very tough, incredibly driven - and he wasn't a nice man at all. I don't think he was much more of a racist or a snob than maybe others of his time and place. He was unpleasant to everyone, not just the lower classes.

But then how do you make yet another documentary on Colditz that anyone will watch without deliberately stirring up controversy??
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 08:14
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Why then big airlines in the desert (away from woke policies) which pay well and have numerous candidates are selecting mostly white male pilots?
It would be easier and cheaper for them to recruit BAME
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 08:23
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I certainly heard two views of Bader when I was in the service. One was that he was unpleasant and one that that was just a facade and he was a really warm human being behind it all.

The comment that sticks was from a flight deck visitor in the nineties who had been a Sgt pilot on 242 Squadron. When asked what the guy was like his answer was:

"He was a very go ahead bloke and that was just what was needed at that time"

Probably as close to the horses mouth as you will get and a nice way to be remembered.
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 09:03
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Over the years Bader has been much discussed on this forum.

The overall conclusion was that he was very brave, very tough, incredibly driven - and he wasn't a nice man at all.
I understand from recent threads that the same could be said of Gibson and indeed of Churchill..
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 09:08
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Today’s Sunday Times

Rod Liddle today:



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Old 4th Jun 2023, 09:29
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Originally Posted by chevvron
I understand from recent threads that the same could be said of Gibson and indeed of Churchill..

And indeed ( heresy as it is) W@@kle-Brown. As stated in one of his reviews “ possessed of a certain froideur”. I attended one of his presentations many moons ago and at the after drinks stage he was verging on the dismissive, barely interested…and downright rude, to some fairly well decorated and interested participants. I’d like to think some of his experiences at Nuremberg etc may have honed his outlook on life…more likely that high achievers such as he, Bader, Gibson etc just required a certain make up
to function in the way that they did.
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 09:34
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Can we get back to the point of this thread, rather than debating whether Bader and Gibson were nice people or not?
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 09:40
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Probably not. Because the thread has been done to death. Recruit on merit…all well functioning organizations are meritocracies…and that should be the only criteria.
Attempt to inculcate an interest in service / general aviation in all parts of society and stop buggaring about with targets/ attempts at social engineering and having to pay out asinine amounts of money as a result.
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Old 4th Jun 2023, 10:22
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Thread opened with reports of comments and overview by the Head of the RAF Selection Board.Probably a correct view but articulation choice and chosen platform a touch questionable. Even Prez Rishi might be regretting saying stuff on his "App" - whatever that is.

Change in this area has been predictably slow.

Took me three attempts in the 60's to gain an offer of Cranwell Cadetship. At OASC Biggin, I never saw one female (actually, anywhere!).- Nothing changing over 6 year period.

I do have skin in this game (pun intended). In all three selection visits to Biggin, I was the only dusky to be seen

Civil aviation changed a bit faster but still not fast enough.

I failed Cathay selection in 1978 because,looking at my application photo and place of Birth, DFO thought I was Indian and binned the process.

Historic compensation for racial preference would be mind blowing. Can't be bothered. I'll stick with Judge Juidy & a Jack & Coke.
..



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Old 4th Jun 2023, 10:49
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Originally Posted by snapper41
Can we get back to the point of this thread, rather than debating whether Bader and Gibson were nice people or not?
Back in the '60s when I was about 15 years old, I joined the Chorleywood branch of 'Air Britain' where we had at talk by 'Paddy' Barthrup and he was totally different; chatting to anyone and everyone.
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