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‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

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‘Stop choosing useless white male pilots’, RAF told

Old 7th Jun 2023, 15:40
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Originally Posted by Lomon
This isn't the 1950's, when a pilot was purely employed to "go up tidlly [sic] up up." These days in a massively reduced Air Force everyone has to be able to turn their hand to more than just the role they were recruited for - a concept some current RAF pilots seem woefully incapable of contemplating.
Wow, what a blinkered view! No wonder people are leaving in droves. Even in the 1950s this wasn't true, as aircrew did many jobs other than fly. Aircrew filled Ops posts, HQ posts, ATC posts, training posts, even OC GD Flight. The RAF has been through many rounds of removing aircrew from ground jobs to get them back into the cockpit. The biggest recent one was circa 2012, when the retention of EVERY non-flying but aircrew allotted post, had to be justified; the underlying question was why can't this be non-aircrew? That undermines your argument. Your view is as wrong, but might go some way to explaining why the RAF is in the state it is today.

As for
Originally Posted by Lomon
The OPERATIVE word is useless.
well that just highlights your lack of comprehension. I think anyone with a semblance of intelligence, as opposed to being a village idiot, knows that what the Sqn Ldr meant was: useless (in meeting CAS' D&I agenda), rather than being useless pilots. I'm afraid useless pilots don't tend to survive long.
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Old 7th Jun 2023, 17:07
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This idiot thinks that the fact that the Sqn Ldr's post can legitimately be believed to have two different meanings reinforces an impression of incompetence.
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Old 7th Jun 2023, 17:47
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The statement to me suggests that white males are useless in the context of satisfying the quotas.
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Old 7th Jun 2023, 17:48
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Originally Posted by Roland Pulfrew
… The RAF has been through many rounds of removing aircrew from ground jobs to get them back into the cockpit. The biggest recent one was circa 2012, when the retention of EVERY non-flying but aircrew allotted post, had to be justified; the underlying question was why can't this be non-aircrew? That undermines your argument. Your view is as wrong, but might go some way to explaining why the RAF is in the state it is today.
Indeed. I was what was called General Duties (Ground) ATC, and in the 80s got swept up (happily) in a general purge of Aircrew in Ground posts. Interesting times followed in MoD appointments in Int (there were several of us) and War Plans and Policy under DAFSD.

The vast expense and time spent generating Aircrew, especially Pilots, has long since justified them being in the cockpits where they belong, earning their Flying Pay (or whatever it’s called now. And gender, ethnicity or orientation have no bearimg, IMO, on getting the best of the best into the airframes where they belong. And the same principle applies to ALL specialisations/roles.
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Old 7th Jun 2023, 20:58
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Originally Posted by bugged on the right
The statement to me suggests that white males are useless in the context of satisfying the quotas his progress up the greasy pole.
Fixed...

CG
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Old 7th Jun 2023, 22:05
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The vast expense and time spent generating Aircrew, especially Pilots, has long since justified them being in the cockpits where they belong, earning their Flying Pay (or whatever it’s called now. And gender, ethnicity or orientation have no bearimg, IMO, on getting the best of the best into the airframes where they belong. And the same principle applies to ALL specialisations/roles.
Sadly MPN11 that shows a naivety of what is required for an Aircrew career structure to enable everything that needs doing. You need your SNCO/Junior Officer worker bees “on the tools” flying, but you need your Aircrew Sqn Ldrs, Wg Cdrs and Gp Capts to both Command, Lead and Manage (CLM) - Command the policy for safe and effective policy, lead their Aircrew below them and manage their fighting units, capabilities (people, weapons and aircraft) and direct operational support. So, for every 3x worker bees you start needing a single CLM Aircrew above them doing a variety of roles - Flt Cdrs, Staff Officers, T&E experts and Instructors. Then above those CLM experts you need Sqn Cdrs, DCAW/DDHs, Staff Officers, T& E experts and Instructors. That process only really starts to run thin at 1-star where more generalists are required, but you still need 1-star Force Commanders, 2-star AOCs (ODHs - for FL flying and Trg flying) and a 3-star Air & Space Commander.

When you work that all out you end up with roughly the number of Aircrew that we have in the RAF - funny old thing!!!
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Old 8th Jun 2023, 10:11
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LJ, I completely understand the need for 'upper echelon' posts for those who are moving up the greasy pole. However, that is for what I dare to call the 'elite' ... those who have been identified and groomed for success. Two tours in each rank, move on and up. But this was, in my day, for the few. There were many others who were 'slot filling' with no expectation of a stellar career, and it was those to whom I was alluding.

All different nowadays, of course ... the goalposts are undoubtedly a completely different size and shape!
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 10:17
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Do we want to celebrate, champion and promote diversity at all costs? This is actually counterproductive to social integration.

By highlighting differences aren’t we actually exacerbating the problem? Surely we need to arrive at a point where ethnicity, colour, religion, gender etc is irrelevant, and only ‘Performance’ is the consideration. If certain groups are underrepresented then that’s society’s problem to fix and should not be artificially engineered. There is no place for quotas in a ‘safety critical’ role such as the military.

If positive discrimination is allowed then this will cause division, and undermine the all important morale of the services. I’m all for ‘positive encouragement’ for those underrepresented but restricting ‘white males’ is not the answer.

Last edited by Tranquility Base; 9th Jun 2023 at 10:36. Reason: Extra text
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 11:13
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Originally Posted by MPN11
LJ, I completely understand the need for 'upper echelon' posts for those who are moving up the greasy pole. However, that is for what I dare to call the 'elite' ... those who have been identified and groomed for success. Two tours in each rank, move on and up. But this was, in my day, for the few. There were many others who were 'slot filling' with no expectation of a stellar career, and it was those to whom I was alluding
For the first few years of my ATC career I was in the civil service department which dealt with such things before the CAA came along and the standard saying then was 'if they're useless at their job, promote them and post them'.
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 11:25
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Recruiters were rather more plentiful 'back in the day'! At my prep school, a young pilot from Chivenor enthralled us one summer evening with the various things he'd brought with him - flying suit, bone dome, mae west, dinghy etc. and politely answered lots of little boys' questions. "I'll be back to say hello again soon", he concluded...and a few days later a single seat Hunter roared over the school! A few years later the 'schools liasion' officer for the region arranged a formal interview with a Wg Cdr and a Sqn Ldr for me, which was very friendly and went very well. Both were aircrew.

I was fortunate to do well enough at OASC to be given an RAF Scholarship, which included a 30 hour Special Flying Award as the school only had an army section of the CCF. I was too young to start PPL training that year, so my father tried to arrange an AEF trip for me. "No - we only take ATC and CCF(RAF) cadets - and your son is CCF(Army)" came the sniffy reply. But Dad had a rather special friend who was an FAA Squadron Commander at Yeovilton..."Let me see if the RN can do better", he said......
Which they did - at 15 years old, I flew in the 'coal hole' of a 'Vixen at the 1966 Farnborough Air Show. Sick as a pig for much of it, but loved every minute.

But back then the main difference was that 'air mindedness' was more prevalent! Lots of military jets in the skies over Britain, flight deck visits on airliners, lots of air shows and open days......

Whereas now?

Last edited by BEagle; 9th Jun 2023 at 12:56.
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 13:05
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Apparently after the RAF opened up Pilot recruitment they’ve received 15,000 applications . What would no be interesting to confirm is the social ‘make-up’ ratio of these applications in terms white males v BAME, then see if it’s markedly different 12 months down the line from those who are successful.

One would hopefully expect a similar ratio (+/-) at the beginning as at the end of the selection process. Can this information be sought via the Freedom of Informations’ Act?
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 15:18
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Originally Posted by BEagle
Lots of military jets in the skies over Britain......

Whereas now?
Sitting in a garden in the middle of East Angular enjoying the sun and not a sniff of anything fast... Mind you I suppose it's poets day. Remember driving in this area about 40 years ago and seeing quite a lot of low level stuff and not just A-10s...
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 15:39
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Originally Posted by treadigraph
Sitting in a garden in the middle of East Angular enjoying the sun and not a sniff of anything fast... Mind you I suppose it's poets day. Remember driving in this area about 40 years ago and seeing quite a lot of low level stuff and not just A-10s...
Hardly surprising it being friday afternoon.
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 16:36
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Hardly surprising it being Friday afternoon.
Quite so. Certainly in 1982/3 56(F), the RAF's premier fighter squadron at RAF Wattisham, would aim to finish Friday's flying as early as possible, if at all, to give the groundcrew the maximum opportunity for rectification in time for Monday's flying programme.
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 19:48
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Originally Posted by BEagle
Recruiters were rather more plentiful 'back in the day'! At my prep school, a young pilot from Chivenor enthralled us one summer evening with the various things he'd brought with him - flying suit, bone dome, mae west, dinghy etc. and politely answered lots of little boys' questions. "I'll be back to say hello again soon", he concluded...and a few days later a single seat Hunter roared over the school! A few years later the 'schools liasion' officer for the region arranged a formal interview with a Wg Cdr and a Sqn Ldr for me, which was very friendly and went very well. Both were aircrew.

I was fortunate to do well enough at OASC to be given an RAF Scholarship, which included a 30 hour Special Flying Award as the school only had an army section of the CCF. I was too young to start PPL training that year, so my father tried to arrange an AEF trip for me. "No - we only take ATC and CCF(RAF) cadets - and your son is CCF(Army)" came the sniffy reply. But Dad had a rather special friend who was an FAA Squadron Commander at Yeovilton..."Let me see if the RN can do better", he said......
Which they did - at 15 years old, I flew in the 'coal hole' of a 'Vixen at the 1966 Farnborough Air Show. Sick as a pig for much of it, but loved every minute.

But back then the main difference was that 'air mindedness' was more prevalent! Lots of military jets in the skies over Britain, flight deck visits on airliners, lots of air shows and open days......

Whereas now?
Do you think Beagle, that you would have gone for the Dark Blue service, FAA, if it wasn't for the Wilson/Healy plans to dismantle the fixed-wing side of things? Oh, and when you were in the Coal Hole, was the Perspex painted out Black? Or could you moved a Blind back and forth? Trivial question I know, but I was always curious.

FB
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 20:02
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Originally Posted by BEagle
"No - we only take ATC and CCF(RAF) cadets - and your son is CCF(Army)" came the sniffy reply.
Back in the '60s, Eton College CCF attended RAF Halton for AEG and they were all in army uniform.
To say they were 'thick' is an understatement but when I was tasked to get an extra glider out of the hangar and reported their antics to 'Air Clues', I was awarded a 'Good Show' by Wg Cdr Spry.
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 22:05
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Do you think Beagle, that you would have gone for the Dark Blue service, FAA, if it wasn't for the Wilson/Healy plans to dismantle the fixed-wing side of things?
No - I wanted to fly TSR2 / F111K!

Oh, and when you were in the Coal Hole, was the Perspex painted out black? Or could you moved a blind back and forth?
The hatch cover was solid, but the side window was clear Perspex.
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Old 9th Jun 2023, 23:53
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Originally Posted by BEagle
But Dad had a rather special friend who was an FAA Squadron Commander at Yeovilton..."Let me see if the RN can do better", he said......
Which they did - at 15 years old, I flew in the 'coal hole' of a 'Vixen at the 1966 Farnborough Air Show. Sick as a pig for much of it, but loved every minute.
Beags, I am not suggesting you are stretching the truth, but flying in a "Vixen at the 1966 Farnborough Air Show" does seem a little bit of a stretch. OK, back then, the FAA may have been gash enough to throw a kid into a FJ, but at an air show? at Farnborough? Please explain, with the manoeuvres that you loved.
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Old 10th Jun 2023, 01:08
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At the 1966 Farnborough Air Show, the FAA flew a large formation of 10 Sea Vixens, 6 Buccaneers and 3 Gannets.

892 Sqn led the 'Vixen formation and I was the guest of Cdr Nigel Anderdon (sp), OC892 and a great friend of my father's. After a whole morning of safety drills and a quick "Can you clear your ears?", I was given a 'passenger ticket' and went to the wardroom for a light lunch before going to the flight line and into the observers' seat of the 'Vixen which was to fly in echelon starboard of the formation immediately to the right of the leader - which meant I couldn't see any other aircraft. We held for a while bouncing around at low level waiting for the Buccaneers, then off to the air display, catching up with the Gannets as we arrived as a 19-ship. After the flypast we split into individual sections, which included a simulated rocket attack by the 'Vixen team during which I almost blacked out!

After completing the display, we flew to repeat much of it over HMS Hermes (I think) which was in port, then back to Yeovilton.

I recall one of the pilots being given a hard time during the debrief for landing too close to the aircraft ahead!

Other passengers that day included members of the aviation press, but I was asked to keep clear of them as the FAA didn't want some stupid "Lucky cadet gets navy flight" articles appearing!
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Old 10th Jun 2023, 01:12
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BEagle The hatch cover was solid, but the side window was clear Perspex.
The Sea Vixen FAW2 Nav's hatch was modified at some point to a clear, bulged, Perspex - clearly visible here.



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