China recruits former British military pilots
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 162
Likes: 34
From: Dodo Island
Well there would be lots of bodies hanging on trees if you are anywhere near “law” enforcement I reckon.
Where do you put the limit ? Is Saudi Arabia “acceptable” ? Israel ?
There is definitely a moral and principles issue here but treason is quite a strong word (and crime).
Where do you put the limit ? Is Saudi Arabia “acceptable” ? Israel ?
There is definitely a moral and principles issue here but treason is quite a strong word (and crime).
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,142
Likes: 58
From: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
There are several high horses missing their riders.
Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (I’m being deliberately flippant so don’t get too precious!) don’t get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?
BV
Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (I’m being deliberately flippant so don’t get too precious!) don’t get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?
BV
Just as an FYI, an ex-ranker stacker (left the RAF as a Cpl) is currently fairly high up the chain of a well-known pharmaceutical company, where £250k was less than his bonus last year.
Of course if we're going to resort to dated stereotypes, aren't all RAF pilots officers these days, and therefore imbued with a sense of duty and morality that ex-erks can only dream of?
Joined: Sep 2021
Posts: 162
Likes: 34
From: Dodo Island
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Joined: Feb 2006
Aviation Qualifications: LAME
Posts: 36,137
Likes: 5,738
From: Falling off the end of the thread
Oh please. Do you honestly think non-pilot trades can't get similar wages without providing services/experience to a potential enemy of the UK and/or its allies?
Just as an FYI, an ex-ranker stacker (left the RAF as a Cpl) is currently fairly high up the chain of a well-known pharmaceutical company, where £250k was less than his bonus last year.
Of course if we're going to resort to dated stereotypes, aren't all RAF pilots officers these days, and therefore imbued with a sense of duty and morality that ex-erks can only dream of?
Just as an FYI, an ex-ranker stacker (left the RAF as a Cpl) is currently fairly high up the chain of a well-known pharmaceutical company, where £250k was less than his bonus last year.
Of course if we're going to resort to dated stereotypes, aren't all RAF pilots officers these days, and therefore imbued with a sense of duty and morality that ex-erks can only dream of?
The MOD should ask for their medals, if they have any, back.. treason is a bit far, but training ones adversaries is a bit close to the mark, saying they are not passing on secrets but are teaching them their skill set is in its own way teaching them how we fight. Something they can then adapt to counter act our training.
Joined: Jul 2003
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 2,688
Likes: 1,522
From: Near the coast
Stacker
I’d say that was a very easy and predictable bite. If you couldn’t see the actual meaning of my post I’ll distill it for you.
Do you think the reactions of many people are based on a bit of jealousy of those who can earn a lot more (trust me, I’ve experienced it) and an inbuilt dislike of the ‘two-winged master race’?!
BV
Do you think the reactions of many people are based on a bit of jealousy of those who can earn a lot more (trust me, I’ve experienced it) and an inbuilt dislike of the ‘two-winged master race’?!
BV
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,369
Likes: 0
From: UK
‘Why now’ for this press release? Concern at political fallout if China attack Taiwan (imagine the headline “Ex-RAF pilots train Chinese Pilots Prior to attack on Taiwan)?! Deflection from other woes in the RAF? Lead turning a more damaging story?
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 184
Likes: 17
From: Uk
Really?
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
And ex-military personnel actually travelling to mainland China under the current regime?
I would have thought that would be a one way trip.
Waiting on official confirmation from the MOD...
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
And ex-military personnel actually travelling to mainland China under the current regime?
I would have thought that would be a one way trip.
Waiting on official confirmation from the MOD...
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
The Hong Kong Territory was handed over to the Chinese government in 1997. With it went the entire Government Flying Service, lock stock and barrel. GFS was a renamed/civilianised Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force. The existing contracts of many expatriate workers were carried over. No one complained back then.
Also, many “U.K.” core businesses have direct connections with China. For example, “Bio Products Laboratory”, based at Elstree. It used to be part of the NHS but was sold to China!
If any of us looked at the origins of our household goods, cutting China out of our lives would be difficult to achieve.
Also, many “U.K.” core businesses have direct connections with China. For example, “Bio Products Laboratory”, based at Elstree. It used to be part of the NHS but was sold to China!
If any of us looked at the origins of our household goods, cutting China out of our lives would be difficult to achieve.
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,761
Likes: 385
Continuing established liaison work and light transport duties might be different from the (claimed) instructing and disclosure of western tactics within the PLA AF? It sounds like it might violate the odd NDA or two?
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,192
Likes: 240
From: The back of beyond
Well there would be lots of bodies hanging on trees if you are anywhere near “law” enforcement I reckon.
Where do you put the limit ? Is Saudi Arabia “acceptable” ? Israel ?
There is definitely a moral and principles issue here but treason is quite a strong word (and crime).
Where do you put the limit ? Is Saudi Arabia “acceptable” ? Israel ?
There is definitely a moral and principles issue here but treason is quite a strong word (and crime).
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,142
Likes: 58
From: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
I believe the concern is that they are aiding a potential enemy, which could cost the UK both money, and more importantly, lives, one day
Whether they are pilots, stackers, fat splashers or spanner monkeys doesn't come into it. They are former members of the British military (and commissioned ones at that, so you'd think would better understand the potential consequence of their actions, if the benefit of a Cranwell education is what it's cracked up to be) and are providing a service to a totalitarian regime with a recent/ongoing history of genocide and expansionist aspirations.
I honestly thought you were more intelligent than to propose the low hanging fruit of "...it's because it's pilots...". My own brother is a currently serving RAF pilot for starters...
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 40
Likes: 19
From: Scotland
China may not be our enemy (yet) but they are definitely America's enemy, and America lets us play with their nice toys (AMRAAM, F35 etc.). They also invite us to share intelligence and take part in their programmes, RAF pilots are currently flying B2, F35 and F22 in America, would they let us do this if there was a risk these pilots would subsequently go and fly for China? I have spoken to a number of US exchange officers about this and they are absolutely furious, don't imagine the Pentagon is overly impressed either. It may not be technically illegal but neither is having sex with a 12 year old in the Philippines. Ultimately your actions in teaching the Chinese how to be better could end up being used to kill Western or Taiwanese pilots, if you can live with that, fine. I couldn't.
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 115
Likes: 5
From: By the Cathedral just outside Syerston circuit.
Again , I have no military / aviation background , so feel free to pull me up but , as it’s an open discussion...
Any details of WHAT they’re being hired to train the Chinese?
I read that it’s flying training - if it’s merely that , is it possible to teach without giving away ‘secrets’?
I haven’t seen any reports that the pilots in question have been asked to reveal anything & it isn’t illegal, so is the condemnation just a moral principal?
To paraphrase BV , ( & I’m still laughing at his original words ! ) it’s a lotta bucks for being Buck Rogers & surely no one would blame qualified people for making money whilst they can.
I appreciate China’s attempts at World domination in other ways , but so far there’s been no shooting between ‘us’ & them , so in that manner , they’re a potential enemy , as are many others.
If it were me , I’d be far more uncomfortable morally at the thought of training Saudi pilots to kill women & children , but the Saudis are the good guys , so it must be ok I guess.
Any details of WHAT they’re being hired to train the Chinese?
I read that it’s flying training - if it’s merely that , is it possible to teach without giving away ‘secrets’?
I haven’t seen any reports that the pilots in question have been asked to reveal anything & it isn’t illegal, so is the condemnation just a moral principal?
To paraphrase BV , ( & I’m still laughing at his original words ! ) it’s a lotta bucks for being Buck Rogers & surely no one would blame qualified people for making money whilst they can.
I appreciate China’s attempts at World domination in other ways , but so far there’s been no shooting between ‘us’ & them , so in that manner , they’re a potential enemy , as are many others.
If it were me , I’d be far more uncomfortable morally at the thought of training Saudi pilots to kill women & children , but the Saudis are the good guys , so it must be ok I guess.
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 531
Likes: 115
From: East Sussex
I can not believe that RAF/NATO tactics, or operational procedures whatever you want to call them, do not fall within the scope of the OSA.
Unless I'd had the OK from the MOD, or a legal opinion from an experienced Brief, I'm not sure I would wish to risk finding myself up before a judge on OSA charges. I'm sure even our CPS with the aid of the security services could make it stick, if they wanted to.
Unless I'd had the OK from the MOD, or a legal opinion from an experienced Brief, I'm not sure I would wish to risk finding myself up before a judge on OSA charges. I'm sure even our CPS with the aid of the security services could make it stick, if they wanted to.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 650
Likes: 10
From: England
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 650
Likes: 10
From: England
I can not believe that RAF/NATO tactics, or operational procedures whatever you want to call them, do not fall within the scope of the OSA.
Unless I'd had the OK from the MOD, or a legal opinion from an experienced Brief, I'm not sure I would wish to risk finding myself up before a judge on OSA charges. I'm sure even our CPS with the aid of the security services could make it stick, if they wanted to.
Unless I'd had the OK from the MOD, or a legal opinion from an experienced Brief, I'm not sure I would wish to risk finding myself up before a judge on OSA charges. I'm sure even our CPS with the aid of the security services could make it stick, if they wanted to.
This is not about the OSA or sharing secrets.
This is about training Chinese fighter pilots to the same standard (or close to) as the best fighter pilots in the world and setting them up to be as capable as possible when they reach their OCU/FTU/whatever.
Joined: Jun 2021
Posts: 114
Likes: 106
From: UK
Totally missing the point.
This is not about the OSA or sharing secrets.
This is about training Chinese fighter pilots to the same standard (or close to) as the best fighter pilots in the world and setting them up to be as capable as possible when they reach their OCU/FTU/whatever.
This is not about the OSA or sharing secrets.
This is about training Chinese fighter pilots to the same standard (or close to) as the best fighter pilots in the world and setting them up to be as capable as possible when they reach their OCU/FTU/whatever.
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 400
Likes: 11
From: Lost