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China recruits former British military pilots

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China recruits former British military pilots

Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:01
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Originally Posted by Glass Half Empty View Post
personally, I think they are traitors - end of story
Well there would be lots of bodies hanging on trees if you are anywhere near “law” enforcement I reckon.
Where do you put the limit ? Is Saudi Arabia “acceptable” ? Israel ?
There is definitely a moral and principles issue here but treason is quite a strong word (and crime).
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:16
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
There are several high horses missing their riders.

Is it just the case that trades other than pilots (I’m being deliberately flippant so don’t get too precious!) don’t get offered jobs with such salaries that is making so many people allow their knickers to become so irrevocably knotted?

BV
Oh please. Do you honestly think non-pilot trades can't get similar wages without providing services/experience to a potential enemy of the UK and/or its allies?

Just as an FYI, an ex-ranker stacker (left the RAF as a Cpl) is currently fairly high up the chain of a well-known pharmaceutical company, where £250k was less than his bonus last year.

Of course if we're going to resort to dated stereotypes, aren't all RAF pilots officers these days, and therefore imbued with a sense of duty and morality that ex-erks can only dream of?
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:17
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Originally Posted by Frank W. Abagnale View Post
Is Saudi-Arabia or Israel a threat to the US led world order ?
Some might argue it.
But probably neither would last long without US military support - so the point is moot.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:30
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Originally Posted by kriskross View Post
Reminds me of the old joke when instructing potential 'non-friendly' nations, that the best form of evasive action was a 30 degree banked turn to the right.
Not forgetting the mandatory period of straight and level flight after every aerobatic manoeuvre!
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:33
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Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker View Post
Oh please. Do you honestly think non-pilot trades can't get similar wages without providing services/experience to a potential enemy of the UK and/or its allies?

Just as an FYI, an ex-ranker stacker (left the RAF as a Cpl) is currently fairly high up the chain of a well-known pharmaceutical company, where £250k was less than his bonus last year.

Of course if we're going to resort to dated stereotypes, aren't all RAF pilots officers these days, and therefore imbued with a sense of duty and morality that ex-erks can only dream of?
A lot of Licenced Engineers also earn more than those flying them.

The MOD should ask for their medals, if they have any, back.. treason is a bit far, but training ones adversaries is a bit close to the mark, saying they are not passing on secrets but are teaching them their skill set is in its own way teaching them how we fight. Something they can then adapt to counter act our training.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:36
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Stacker

I’d say that was a very easy and predictable bite. If you couldn’t see the actual meaning of my post I’ll distill it for you.

Do you think the reactions of many people are based on a bit of jealousy of those who can earn a lot more (trust me, I’ve experienced it) and an inbuilt dislike of the ‘two-winged master race’?!

BV
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:41
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‘Why now’ for this press release? Concern at political fallout if China attack Taiwan (imagine the headline “Ex-RAF pilots train Chinese Pilots Prior to attack on Taiwan)?! Deflection from other woes in the RAF? Lead turning a more damaging story?
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:52
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Originally Posted by tartare View Post
Really?
I find it very hard to believe that even for the sums of money quoted - former Fast Jet pilots would literally side with the enemy.
And ex-military personnel actually travelling to mainland China under the current regime?
I would have thought that would be a one way trip.
Waiting on official confirmation from the MOD...
You do realise that hundreds of serving military travel to China each year on holiday? Well maybe not since covid.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 13:53
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The Hong Kong Territory was handed over to the Chinese government in 1997. With it went the entire Government Flying Service, lock stock and barrel. GFS was a renamed/civilianised Royal Hong Kong Auxiliary Air Force. The existing contracts of many expatriate workers were carried over. No one complained back then.

Also, many “U.K.” core businesses have direct connections with China. For example, “Bio Products Laboratory”, based at Elstree. It used to be part of the NHS but was sold to China!

If any of us looked at the origins of our household goods, cutting China out of our lives would be difficult to achieve.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:00
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Continuing established liaison work and light transport duties might be different from the (claimed) instructing and disclosure of western tactics within the PLA AF? It sounds like it might violate the odd NDA or two?
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:12
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Originally Posted by zambonidriver View Post
Well there would be lots of bodies hanging on trees if you are anywhere near “law” enforcement I reckon.
Where do you put the limit ? Is Saudi Arabia “acceptable” ? Israel ?
There is definitely a moral and principles issue here but treason is quite a strong word (and crime).
I understand concerns over autocratic and repressive Saudi Arabia, but why Israel which is a liberal Western democracy that shares the same values and geo-strategic outlook that we do?
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:15
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
I’d Do you think the reactions of many people are based on a bit of jealousy of those who can earn a lot more (trust me, I’ve experienced it) and an inbuilt dislike of the ‘two-winged master race’?!

BV
Not at all.

I believe the concern is that they are aiding a potential enemy, which could cost the UK both money, and more importantly, lives, one day

Whether they are pilots, stackers, fat splashers or spanner monkeys doesn't come into it. They are former members of the British military (and commissioned ones at that, so you'd think would better understand the potential consequence of their actions, if the benefit of a Cranwell education is what it's cracked up to be) and are providing a service to a totalitarian regime with a recent/ongoing history of genocide and expansionist aspirations.

I honestly thought you were more intelligent than to propose the low hanging fruit of "...it's because it's pilots...". My own brother is a currently serving RAF pilot for starters...
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:20
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China may not be our enemy (yet) but they are definitely America's enemy, and America lets us play with their nice toys (AMRAAM, F35 etc.). They also invite us to share intelligence and take part in their programmes, RAF pilots are currently flying B2, F35 and F22 in America, would they let us do this if there was a risk these pilots would subsequently go and fly for China? I have spoken to a number of US exchange officers about this and they are absolutely furious, don't imagine the Pentagon is overly impressed either. It may not be technically illegal but neither is having sex with a 12 year old in the Philippines. Ultimately your actions in teaching the Chinese how to be better could end up being used to kill Western or Taiwanese pilots, if you can live with that, fine. I couldn't.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:23
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Again , I have no military / aviation background , so feel free to pull me up but , as it’s an open discussion...
Any details of WHAT they’re being hired to train the Chinese?
I read that it’s flying training - if it’s merely that , is it possible to teach without giving away ‘secrets’?
I haven’t seen any reports that the pilots in question have been asked to reveal anything & it isn’t illegal, so is the condemnation just a moral principal?
To paraphrase BV , ( & I’m still laughing at his original words ! ) it’s a lotta bucks for being Buck Rogers & surely no one would blame qualified people for making money whilst they can.
I appreciate China’s attempts at World domination in other ways , but so far there’s been no shooting between ‘us’ & them , so in that manner , they’re a potential enemy , as are many others.
If it were me , I’d be far more uncomfortable morally at the thought of training Saudi pilots to kill women & children , but the Saudis are the good guys , so it must be ok I guess.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:26
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I can not believe that RAF/NATO tactics, or operational procedures whatever you want to call them, do not fall within the scope of the OSA.

Unless I'd had the OK from the MOD, or a legal opinion from an experienced Brief, I'm not sure I would wish to risk finding myself up before a judge on OSA charges. I'm sure even our CPS with the aid of the security services could make it stick, if they wanted to.

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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:37
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According to The Times it’s only FJ and rotary mates they’re after. Presumably they still have enough hotel inspectors of their own.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:43
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Originally Posted by Flugzeug A View Post
If it were me , I’d be far more uncomfortable morally at the thought of training Saudi pilots to kill women & children , but the Saudis are the good guys , so it must be ok I guess.
Remarkable. Who do you think the Chinese are going to end up killing if they decide to take back Taiwan?
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:47
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Originally Posted by WB627 View Post
I can not believe that RAF/NATO tactics, or operational procedures whatever you want to call them, do not fall within the scope of the OSA.

Unless I'd had the OK from the MOD, or a legal opinion from an experienced Brief, I'm not sure I would wish to risk finding myself up before a judge on OSA charges. I'm sure even our CPS with the aid of the security services could make it stick, if they wanted to.
Totally missing the point.

This is not about the OSA or sharing secrets.

This is about training Chinese fighter pilots to the same standard (or close to) as the best fighter pilots in the world and setting them up to be as capable as possible when they reach their OCU/FTU/whatever.

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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:53
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Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy View Post
Totally missing the point.

This is not about the OSA or sharing secrets.

This is about training Chinese fighter pilots to the same standard (or close to) as the best fighter pilots in the world and setting them up to be as capable as possible when they reach their OCU/FTU/whatever.
And another reason they would not be welcome company in a long range, multi crew civilian airliner. Strewth. Did someone say ex ba.
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Old 18th Oct 2022, 14:57
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Originally Posted by sitigeltfel View Post
They're selling themselves short at £250,000. A Labour Party minister costs the Chinese at least £500,000.
Remember they’re being paid for their brainpower and an MP’s one is still in factory condition never having been used.
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