China recruits former British military pilots

[Low average]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

In a world where almost every politician (and Royals of every country) are available for a price it's easy to see how the moral compass goes missing

Don't be too glum Asturias, I believe there are lots of people who do live by a strong moral compass - unfortunately this isn't usually recognised or celebrated. Dishonour is more newsworthy than honour in my opinion.

[Hot 'n' High]

Originally Posted by Mogwi

Personally, I am glad to see the UK taking this seriously. I speak as one who, as a recent civvy, introduced pilots of a former Soviet-ruled state to the NATO way of operating - with approval from UK Gov. ......... Admittedly things will have moved on a bit from there but I am still quite sure that our oriental friends are decades behind modern Western thinking, when it comes to employing air power - and I believe that we should endeavour to keep it that way. Mog

Quite agree! But, as you point out, often there is official encouragement - if not direct, implied. It was not all that long ago when "trade and investment" with China was being actively promoted/encouraged (2022). This push to trade goes quite a way back - for example back in 2013 with Boris J wishing to encourage "[the provision of] financial and professional services" to China. Some ex-Mil aircrew "selling their professional services" probably saw this as something of a "green light". Of course, times have changed again recently, particularly in terms of events in the SCS but, even in the linked article, it is clear that there were (Feb 2022) opposing views regarding trade in general. So one could say that it's something of an "unintended consequences" moment. True, if a slightly "back door" approach has been taken by individuals it probably shows they had concerns ..... but were there explicit limits laid down as to what was OK and what wasn't? And if there were limits, should those have not been policed better a decade ago? Just some musings really........

https://www.ft.com/content/321ffeaf-...7-4d175edbab8a

[Low average]

Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High

This push to trade goes quite a way back - for example back in 2013 with Boris J wishing to encourage "[the provision of] financial and professional services" to China. Some ex-Mil aircrew "selling their professional services" probably saw this as something of a "green light".

Sure - by selling their military expertise to a known hostile State (and anyone in the military for the last 20 years clearly would have known this)...they were just trying to improve trade relations...

No way. Anybody with a hint of morality would have known that this was wrong, and I'm sure many more turned down the recruiters...but some didn't, lured by money. So the only thing to witness now are the consequences (if any).

[Hot 'n' High]

Originally Posted by Low average

....... Anybody with a hint of morality would have known that this was wrong, and I'm sure many more turned down the recruiters...but some didn't, lured by money. So the only thing to witness now are the consequences (if any).

I totally agree with you personally. I'm simply wondering that maybe "Government policy" could/should have been more explicit a long while ago. How many times have we seen debates on the morality of arms sales to various nations - and that involves specific Export licences being approved. I've been out some time now (17 yrs) but I don't think was told what I could/couldn't do. To me it was and still is, fairly clear. Leave it to personal opinion and, as you say, some will rationalise why something is acceptable in their eyes.

Before returning to lurk in the shadows, if I may be permitted slight but relevant Thread drift for this one post, I've always raised an eyebrow at how quickly East European states entered NATO, given, for example, how we have seen how close Putin is to the likes of Orban. On the one hand those pleased to have escaped the Soviet clutches will also be more aware of how the KGB operated - but those who perhaps resented the change suddenly found themselves on the inside of NATO. I'll leave that thought there.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I'll revert to lurking!!!!

[RAFEngO74to09]

Former USMC pilot arrested in Australia in 2022 for violating US Arms Embargo on China being extradited back to USA soon, Australian AG agreed to extradition after 2 years of court battles.

OSINTdefender on X: "Daniel Duggan, a Former U.S. Maine Corps Pilot who renounced his American Citizenship after moving to China in 2013, will finally be Extradited soon back to the United States; after he was Arrested in 2022, at his Family Home in Australia, on Charges of violating a U.S. Arms https://t.co/YisUAcqgSC" / Twitter

[Mogwi]

What a silly billy.

Mog

[bugged on the right]

Any ex serviceman who doesn't know who the enemy is and who then works for them in a third country deserves everything he gets. Greedy sod.

[rattman]

He was originally charged for the itars breeches, money laundering and Arms trading

The arms trading in regards to the T-6 buckeye was dropped from the extradition request, bet it will come back once he is there

The money laundering is not being mentioned in any source I can find but was originally listed as one of the extradtion charges

[Hot 'n' High]

Originally Posted by Mogwi

What a silly billy. ........

As noted in earlier Posts, there seems to be quite a few of them involved in this. I wonder what, if anything, will happen to the others from the UK? The then Defence Sec, Grant Shapps, was banging the drum re bringing those involved to justice back in mid/late 2023. I wonder what, if anything has actually been done or is this just a case of yet more political hot air?

[rattman]

Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High

As noted in earlier Posts, there seems to be quite a few of them involved in this. I wonder what, if anything, will happen to the others from the UK? The then Defence Sec, Grant Shapps, was banging the drum re bringing those involved to justice back in mid/late 2023. I wonder what, if anything has actually been done or is this just a case of yet more political hot air?

Nothing it wasn't illegal for brits or australians were doing it. Its changed in both countries with recent legislation change bought in by both governements that mirror the american laws

[Hot 'n' High]

Originally Posted by rattman

Nothing it wasn't illegal for brits or australians were doing it. Its changed in both countries with recent legislation change bought in by both governements that mirror the american laws

I was just wondering if the practice ceased when the (UK) law was amended in 2023. The subject of Western pilots etc training the Chinese seemed to attract quite a bit of press attention again in June of this year. Was that as a case of a reminder warning against future recruitment or suggesting that some were still involved? Just idle thoughts really..........

[SASless]

Mr. Duggan is returning home at a very bad time for his prospects as there shall be a new Sheriff in town shortly.

Even the Biden DOJ wanted his hide and I am quite sure the Trump Administration DOJ shall certainly carry on with that prosecution.

His only hope is if he can barter a Plea Bargain where he can trade useful information for a reduced sentence or reduced charges.

I doubt very much there shall be either a Commutation or Pardon forthcoming unless it happens before Biden leaves Office.

[GlobalNav]

Originally Posted by SASless

Mr. Duggan is returning home at a very bad time for his prospects as there shall be a new Sheriff in town shortly.

Even the Biden DOJ wanted his hide and I am quite sure the Trump Administration DOJ shall certainly carry on with that prosecution.

His only hope is if he can barter a Plea Bargain where he can trade useful information for a reduced sentence or reduced charges.

I doubt very much there shall be either a Commutation or Pardon forthcoming unless it happens before Biden leaves Office.

I don’t know, I haven’t seen the former president display any reasonable sense of justice toward treasonous behavior, given his own felonious inclinations.

[T28B]

Please stop this thread drift to pure US politics.

[rattman]

Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High

I was just wondering if the practice ceased when the (UK) law was amended in 2023. The subject of Western pilots etc training the Chinese seemed to attract quite a bit of press attention again in June of this year. Was that as a case of a reminder warning against future recruitment or suggesting that some were still involved? Just idle thoughts really..........

You would really have to be a lawyer and read the legislation. Depending on the wording you might be able to get away with saying that when I signed the agreement with XXXX foreign power it wasn't illegal and this condition didn't exist when you were in service. Personally I would err on the side not doing it, but some people are willing to take the money and the risk, mr Duggan is an example of this

I do know an F-35 pilot and early this year when I had a few drinks with him, this came up. He and every F-35 regardless of nationality is covered by ITARS even without this legislation here in australia. While in AUS the legislation (Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2023)) was publically attached to pilots training overseas, it was actually one of the AUKUS conditions so is probably more related to SSN's. Back to the F-35 the pilot is saying that he is covered by ITARS and could be in theory arrested and extradited to the US for trial if he was to breech the ITARS laws

[Nescafe]

Former US Marines pilot Dan Duggan loses bid to avoid extradition from Australia

[57mm]

Can’t see what all the fuss is about. He’s a mercenary like any other throughout history, selling his expertise to the highest bidder, irrespective of politics.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Nescafe

Former US Marines pilot Dan Duggan loses bid to avoid extradition from Australia

Good !.......