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China recruits former British military pilots

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China recruits former British military pilots

Old 10th Nov 2022, 12:38
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The governments of France, Australia and Canada have joined the U.K. investigating whether their retired military pilots are helping to train Chinese pilots. All three powers have warned their former employees, all of whom swore an oath to defend their respective country, that helping the People’s Liberation Army gain the upper hand over Western allies likely makes them criminals.
Earlier this week, the U.K. confirmed it was getting in touch with about 30 ex-RAF pilots who had been approached by a South African company with an offer of about $250,000 a year to train the PLA’s finest. France, Australia and Canada have not yet confirmed their former personnel have taken the bait but they are looking into it. “We are aware of these reports, and we are looking into this further with federal partners,” Canada’s Department of National Defence told Global News. “The Security of Information Act applies to both current and former members, and non-compliance with the Act could result in serious consequences,” said Department of National Defence spokesperson Daniel Le Bouthillier.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...probe-spreads/
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Old 12th Nov 2022, 19:00
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There seems to be some general misunderstanding of the OSA. There has never been a requirement to “sign” the OSA any more than you are required to “sign” the Road Traffic Act before you drive a car. Both are Acts of Parliament and apply to all UK citizens (actually subjects!) whether you are aware of them or not. If you transgress, you can be done and ignorance of the Act is no defence in law.

I was never asked to “sign” anything despite having TS and Cosmic TS clearance on a number of occasions and being in charge of things that make veeery loud noises. What actually happened was “indoctrination” and “de-indoctrination”, which pointed out the importance of not circulating the info you were about to/had just seen to any Tom, Dick or Harriet.

I am with the majority of guys here who think it unwise for recently current FJ guys (other streams are available) to talk tactics with anyone who doesn’t “need to know”. When I was working with some ex-Soviet state FJ pilots in the Eastern bloc, I was specifically (if rather clandestinely) asked to talk basic tactics with them because they were about to apply for NATO membership. I had a pretty poor reception until I beat the CO in 1v1 - then they started to listen!

Ah, happy days!

Mog
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Old 13th Nov 2022, 01:57
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Originally Posted by Mogwi View Post
There seems to be some general misunderstanding of the OSA. There has never been a requirement to “sign” the OSA any more than you are required to “sign” the Road Traffic Act before you drive a car. Both are Acts of Parliament and apply to all UK citizens (actually subjects!) whether you are aware of them or not. If you transgress, you can be done and ignorance of the Act is no defence in law.

I was never asked to “sign” anything despite having TS and Cosmic TS clearance on a number of occasions and being in charge of things that make veeery loud noises. What actually happened was “indoctrination” and “de-indoctrination”, which pointed out the importance of not circulating the info you were about to/had just seen to any Tom, Dick or Harriet.

I am with the majority of guys here who think it unwise for recently current FJ guys (other streams are available) to talk tactics with anyone who doesn’t “need to know”. When I was working with some ex-Soviet state FJ pilots in the Eastern bloc, I was specifically (if rather clandestinely) asked to talk basic tactics with them because they were about to apply for NATO membership. I had a pretty poor reception until I beat the CO in 1v1 - then they started to listen!

Ah, happy days!

Mog
Mogwi
Your first two paragraphs are spot on.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 03:15
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Money is not the answer (with regards to retention). Or so we keep being told.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 03:43
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Originally Posted by happydolphins View Post
Money is not the answer (with regards to retention). Or so we keep being told.
Money is the sincerest form of flattery….
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 11:00
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Originally Posted by Mogwi View Post
There seems to be some general misunderstanding of the OSA. There has never been a requirement to “sign” the OSA any more than you are required to “sign” the Road Traffic Act before you drive a car. Both are Acts of Parliament and apply to all UK citizens (actually subjects!) whether you are aware of them or not. If you transgress, you can be done and ignorance of the Act is no defence in law.

I was never asked to “sign” anything despite having TS and Cosmic TS clearance on a number of occasions and being in charge of things that make veeery loud noises. What actually happened was “indoctrination” and “de-indoctrination”, which pointed out the importance of not circulating the info you were about to/had just seen to any Tom, Dick or Harriet.

I am with the majority of guys here who think it unwise for recently current FJ guys (other streams are available) to talk tactics with anyone who doesn’t “need to know”. When I was working with some ex-Soviet state FJ pilots in the Eastern bloc, I was specifically (if rather clandestinely) asked to talk basic tactics with them because they were about to apply for NATO membership. I had a pretty poor reception until I beat the CO in 1v1 - then they started to listen!

Ah, happy days!

Mog
Odd that, I had to sign it at the CIO at attestation

Although you say basic tactics, surely if you have been taught and had them drummed into you until they were second nature, then those people by the very act of flying and teaching these people will be possibly subconsciously passing on those tactics by the mere act of training them?

..

Last edited by NutLoose; 23rd Nov 2022 at 13:31.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 11:16
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What was signed was almost certainly just a chit to say that you understood your obligations under the OSA. There has never been any requirement to "sign" the OSA. As Mogwi rightly says, if you worked on anything above Secret you were "read in" to the topic, and this then expired when your time of doing work related to that topic came to an end. The only other bit of paper I signed was when I retired, just a reminder that I understood that I was still bound by the same provisions that had applied when working after retirement.

A separate issue is that almost all classified information has a shelf life, beyond which it is either declassified formally, or effectively declassified because it's already in the public domain. One example that springs to mind is WE.177. Shrouded in secrecy for years, until one of the military mags published a chapter and verse info article on the weapons capability, design, even, IIRC, a cutaway drawing, some time before it was officially withdrawn from service. For a time I used one of the S&A key cover tools as a keyring, interesting conversation piece . . .
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 12:10
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I’ve been required to sign the OSA “chit” five times. I got the message after first time, but there we go.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 13:32
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Originally Posted by Old_Slartibartfast View Post
What was signed was almost certainly just a chit to say that you understood your obligations under the OSA. There has never been any requirement to "sign" the OSA. As Mogwi rightly says, if you worked on anything above Secret you were "read in" to the topic, and this then expired when your time of doing work related to that topic came to an end. The only other bit of paper I signed was when I retired, just a reminder that I understood that I was still bound by the same provisions that had applied when working after retirement.

A separate issue is that almost all classified information has a shelf life, beyond which it is either declassified formally, or effectively declassified because it's already in the public domain. One example that springs to mind is WE.177. Shrouded in secrecy for years, until one of the military mags published a chapter and verse info article on the weapons capability, design, even, IIRC, a cutaway drawing, some time before it was officially withdrawn from service. For a time I used one of the S&A key cover tools as a keyring, interesting conversation piece . . .
Or when the details of the accident we had at Bruggen were released confirming we had them there.
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Old 14th Dec 2022, 05:54
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13 Dec 2022 Former U.S. Pilot Helped Chinese Aviators Train for Aircraft Carriers, Indictment Says - WSJ

14 Dec 2022 T-2 Buckeye was exported to South Africa to help train Chinese carrier pilots
https://alert5.com/2022/12/14/t-2-bu...ts/#more-96263
"The U.S. warrant and 2017 indictment of a former U.S. Marine Corps Harrier pilot accused of helping China to train its military pilots have been unsealed by the District of Columbia court. According to information in the indictment of Daniel Duggan, the U.S. government had allowed a T-2 Buckeye trainer to be exported to South Africa due to false information given.... U.S. prosecutors said that the T-2 was exported to a South Africa flight academy. Dugan is accused of providing training to Chinese pilots at the academy from 2010 to 2012...."
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Old 14th Dec 2022, 09:15
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Originally Posted by NutLoose View Post
Or when the details of the accident we had at Bruggen were released confirming we had them there.

hardly a secret to every German bowser driver at Laarbruch and Bruggen, sometimes on exercise the load team and convey had to wait for them to finish refuelling!
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 19:49
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Many of them served the crown for many years on low pay to enter commercial aviation only to find the government shut down their entire livelihood due to a bad cold, at which point they just shrugged as people lost incomes and jobs. Nobody owes UK PLC anything these days. We have the best politicians money can buy, why not the best flight instructors?
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 20:39
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Originally Posted by minigundiplomat View Post
. We have the best politicians money can buy, ?
Mini,
are you suggesting our politicians can be bought?
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 21:42
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Originally Posted by cynicalint View Post
Mini,
are you suggesting our politicians can be bought?
are you suggesting they can’t?
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 00:09
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Originally Posted by SpazSinbad View Post
13 Dec 2022 Former U.S. Pilot Helped Chinese Aviators Train for Aircraft Carriers, Indictment Says - WSJ

14 Dec 2022 T-2 Buckeye was exported to South Africa to help train Chinese carrier pilots
https://alert5.com/2022/12/14/t-2-bu...ts/#more-96263
"The U.S. warrant and 2017 indictment of a former U.S. Marine Corps Harrier pilot accused of helping China to train its military pilots have been unsealed by the District of Columbia court. According to information in the indictment of Daniel Duggan, the U.S. government had allowed a T-2 Buckeye trainer to be exported to South Africa due to false information given.... U.S. prosecutors said that the T-2 was exported to a South Africa flight academy. Dugan is accused of providing training to Chinese pilots at the academy from 2010 to 2012...."
Perhaps this gent was the si-fu (sorry its Cantonese for master / mentor) for the first batch of aviators to join the flat top club.....


It has not been too long since they started trapping the wire and calling the ball.

cheers

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Old 5th Jan 2023, 01:33
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Back in 2009 PLAN was talking to Brazil about training carrier pilots aboard the big SAO - not sure what became of it. A reference still alive: 23 May 2009
http://informationdissemination.****...om-brazil.html

ttp://informationdissemination.bl-A-gspot.com/2009/05/more-on-varyag-news-from-brazil.html

ADD the 'missing beginning H' and change '-A-' to 'o' for working URL.

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 5th Jan 2023 at 01:51.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 22:25
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Interesting tidbit, SpazSinbad.
Back in the 00's, the USN was still training some Brazilian carrier pilots in T-45s (IIRC, TW-1 in Meridian Mississippi).
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 01:03
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That's me "the interestin' NavAv tidbitter" with Naval Aviation News Jan-Feb 1988 top of page 6 LSO School training furriners: https://www.history.navy.mil/content...0/pdf/jf88.pdf
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 01:10
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[URL no longer workee] NAS Meridian TRAwingONE trains furriners

USN LSO Newsletter Dec 2013: http://hrana.org/wp-content/uploads/...cember2013.pdf [no workee]
“...We travelled to Brazil; I know everyone feels bad for us for that one, thanks for your pity. What we saw there was a group of naval Aviators, no different from us. They’ve all been through our pipeline and have at least 10 traps on our boats, but these guys have no working aircraft carrier to continue their careers and they’ve been waiting for it for over 8 years. They only have 2 lenses, one on the ship and one at their FCLP field. They plan to make do with what they’ve got and they are continuing to look our way for some LSO guidance and support when the opportunities arise to get some deck time. It was great to head down to the Southern Hemisphere, wave some A-4s, navigate some head high faces,....”

VT-7 Eagles: http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/tw1/vt7/

NAS Kingsville furriners: https://www.boeing.com/news/frontier...il/i_ids04.pdf
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Old 6th Jan 2023, 01:51
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Going Brazilian, Navy Style [2004] http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/hangar/...o/saopaulo.htm

"...When the A-4s entered service, the Marinha do Brasil had no experience with jet operations on a carrier. To help bring the pilots, maintenance crew and deck handling personnel up to speed, Kay & Associates Inc, based in Arlington Heights, Illinois, was hired in a consulting role. Commander Francis, USN (Ret.), is one of the last remaining advisors on board the carrier, serves as landing signal officer. Under his tutelage the former helicopter pilots shown great progress in learning to operate on board the smallest carrier for conventional aircraft in the world, with the narrowest and shortest runway.

The first A-4 pilots were recruited from the helicopter squadrons and sent to Uruguay and Argentina for basic training in the T-34 Mentor (future A-4 pilots will start their training with the Brazilian air force). They then traveled to NAS Meridian, Missouri, for carrier training with Training Squadron 7 in the T-45 Goshawk. Brazil’s first Skyhawk pilot became the last pilot to earn his wings on the TA-4J at NAS Meridian, and landed the first A-4 on São Paulo in July 2001. During a two-week training cruise in September 2002, the fifth since the ship entered service, the total of qualified jet pilots reached eight...."
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