Moskva down
well it is technically correct, an ordinance explosion caused by a fire which is under investigation. The fire was probably caused by a direct hit from a neptune missile.
Ethical Question for you military people, is it still OK to fire upon an enemy warship even though it may be conducting a rescue operation.
Ethical Question for you military people, is it still OK to fire upon an enemy warship even though it may be conducting a rescue operation.
That crane has to be stowed forwards as it obstructs the S300 VLS cells in the aft position (presumably it has a role in handling reloads).
So either the blast from one of the Neptune warheads has sent the crane upwards, or someone raised it. In many of the photos there is a lot of smoke coming from the void where the main mast was (which is the lower mast, carrying the Top Pair / Top Steer radar). That radar & mast seems to have mostly disappeared, unless it is simply hidden by smoke. Below that mast were the machinery control rooms / the damage control rooms. Awkward.
It is just possible that someone raised the crane to try to use it to direct some firefighting hoses into the void. That is a more positive explanation than either they had not stowed it prior to action, or that it just got blown up/back. But a lot of things about this action are odd.
In the most common photo it is (I think) mid-afternoon with the ship listing to port and the water getting quite close to the deck edge at the stern. So maybe 12-15-hours or so after missile impact if it was in the early hours as reported. That rate of sinking is consistent with it going under several hours later, also as reported.
(edit : by the time of that photo I suspect everyone was off the ship who was capable of leaving)
So either the blast from one of the Neptune warheads has sent the crane upwards, or someone raised it. In many of the photos there is a lot of smoke coming from the void where the main mast was (which is the lower mast, carrying the Top Pair / Top Steer radar). That radar & mast seems to have mostly disappeared, unless it is simply hidden by smoke. Below that mast were the machinery control rooms / the damage control rooms. Awkward.
It is just possible that someone raised the crane to try to use it to direct some firefighting hoses into the void. That is a more positive explanation than either they had not stowed it prior to action, or that it just got blown up/back. But a lot of things about this action are odd.
In the most common photo it is (I think) mid-afternoon with the ship listing to port and the water getting quite close to the deck edge at the stern. So maybe 12-15-hours or so after missile impact if it was in the early hours as reported. That rate of sinking is consistent with it going under several hours later, also as reported.
(edit : by the time of that photo I suspect everyone was off the ship who was capable of leaving)
Last edited by petit plateau; 18th Apr 2022 at 14:31.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
shurely the below decks fire..........
ah, maybe.... not; according to the ICRC with reference to Articles 12, 13, and 18 of the Second Convention for the Amelioration of the Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea, 12 August 1949, all belligerents have a duty to assist in the life-saving of shipwrecked armed forces, so interfering with that activity would probably get a free visit to the Hague sometime in the future. it is also in keeping with SOLAS. Now, if the red team is also plinking away at your blue tub, then they are a legitimate target in self defense, so, kind of maybe, possibly depends. The HMS Conqueror skipper displayed good judgment and knowledge of the law in not launching another?Mk 10? downrange at the Belgrano's escorts. Had they started to attack the Conqueror, a different matter.
COMMENTARY OF 2017
ARTICLE 18 : SEARCH FOR CASUALTIES AFTER AN ENGAGEMENT
Text of the provision*
(1) After each engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the shipwrecked, wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled.
(2) Whenever circumstances permit, the Parties to the conflict shall conclude local arrangements for the removal of the wounded and sick by sea from a besieged or encircled area and for the passage of medical and religious personnel and equipment on their way to that area.
* Paragraph numbers have been added for ease of reference.
A. Introduction
1616 Article 18(1) complements Article 12 by requiring that, after each engagement, Parties to an international armed conflict take all possible measures to search for and collect persons protected by the Second Convention who are shipwrecked, wounded, sick or dead as a result of the hostilities. Article 18 thus sets out specific obligations that flow from the obligation of Article 12 to respect and protect the wounded, sick and shipwrecked.
1617 Article 18(1) is among the most important provisions in the Second Convention. The search for and collection of casualties after a naval engagement, by the Parties to the conflict themselves, is paramount in achieving one of the core objectives of the Convention. When hostilities are taking place at sea, the Parties to the conflict may be the only entities sufficiently close to the victims to search for and collect them.
1618 The obligations of Article 18 must be implemented impartially, in the sense of Article 12. Accordingly, where the Parties to the armed conflict have suffered casualties, Article 18 requires them to search for and collect all the shipwrecked, wounded, sick and dead, without discriminating between their own and enemy personnel.
1619 The obligation to ‘take all possible measures’ applies, as a matter of international humanitarian law, to the ‘Parties to the conflict’ as a whole. Under international criminal law, conduct in violation of Article 18(1) that leads to the death of protected persons may trigger individual criminal responsibility on the basis of the grave breach of wilful killing by omission.
1620 If an area on land is ‘besieged or encircled’, Article 18(2) requires the Parties to the conflict, whenever circumstances permit, to conclude ‘local arrangements’ to evacuate the wounded and sick by sea or to allow for the passage of medical and religious personnel and equipment to the area.
1621 As far as international humanitarian law is concerned, obligations similar to those in Article 18 are contained in the First Convention, the Fourth Convention and the 1977 Additional Protocols, and they also exist under customary international law.
1622 There is a wide array of rules in general international treaty and customary law requiring entities other than the Parties to the conflict to render assistance to persons in distress at sea. The notion of ‘persons in distress at sea’ covers more than, but also includes, the shipwrecked, wounded and sick who are protected persons in the sense of Articles 12 and 13 of the Second Convention.The application of those rules to Parties to a conflict and to neutral Powers is addressed in the Introduction, section C.5.e-f.
COMMENTARY OF 2017
ARTICLE 18 : SEARCH FOR CASUALTIES AFTER AN ENGAGEMENT
Text of the provision*
(1) After each engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the shipwrecked, wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled.
(2) Whenever circumstances permit, the Parties to the conflict shall conclude local arrangements for the removal of the wounded and sick by sea from a besieged or encircled area and for the passage of medical and religious personnel and equipment on their way to that area.
* Paragraph numbers have been added for ease of reference.
A. Introduction
1616 Article 18(1) complements Article 12 by requiring that, after each engagement, Parties to an international armed conflict take all possible measures to search for and collect persons protected by the Second Convention who are shipwrecked, wounded, sick or dead as a result of the hostilities. Article 18 thus sets out specific obligations that flow from the obligation of Article 12 to respect and protect the wounded, sick and shipwrecked.
1617 Article 18(1) is among the most important provisions in the Second Convention. The search for and collection of casualties after a naval engagement, by the Parties to the conflict themselves, is paramount in achieving one of the core objectives of the Convention. When hostilities are taking place at sea, the Parties to the conflict may be the only entities sufficiently close to the victims to search for and collect them.
1618 The obligations of Article 18 must be implemented impartially, in the sense of Article 12. Accordingly, where the Parties to the armed conflict have suffered casualties, Article 18 requires them to search for and collect all the shipwrecked, wounded, sick and dead, without discriminating between their own and enemy personnel.
1619 The obligation to ‘take all possible measures’ applies, as a matter of international humanitarian law, to the ‘Parties to the conflict’ as a whole. Under international criminal law, conduct in violation of Article 18(1) that leads to the death of protected persons may trigger individual criminal responsibility on the basis of the grave breach of wilful killing by omission.
1620 If an area on land is ‘besieged or encircled’, Article 18(2) requires the Parties to the conflict, whenever circumstances permit, to conclude ‘local arrangements’ to evacuate the wounded and sick by sea or to allow for the passage of medical and religious personnel and equipment to the area.
1621 As far as international humanitarian law is concerned, obligations similar to those in Article 18 are contained in the First Convention, the Fourth Convention and the 1977 Additional Protocols, and they also exist under customary international law.
1622 There is a wide array of rules in general international treaty and customary law requiring entities other than the Parties to the conflict to render assistance to persons in distress at sea. The notion of ‘persons in distress at sea’ covers more than, but also includes, the shipwrecked, wounded and sick who are protected persons in the sense of Articles 12 and 13 of the Second Convention.The application of those rules to Parties to a conflict and to neutral Powers is addressed in the Introduction, section C.5.e-f.
The area around Moscow is pretty flat, as in, flat. So even a 5-degree list could be construed to a landlubber as being a hill if they come from somewhere around the Kremmin. Other than the commentary from the Russian Govt, which is well known as an impeccable source of truth and light, is there any evidence of the Turks having a hull anywhere nearby? As in, AIS data or something evidentiary. The Turks denied being anywhere nearby, and probably would be sensitive to being involved in any manner, even if in keeping with Convention II.
Would be astonishing if they didn't have the deadlights closed at night and close to an enemy shore (though much about the incident is surprising) . It certainly doesn't look like there would have been any downflooding at the time the photo was taken although she could have been flooding rapidly due to hull damage.
There is no need to move it into the harbor right away, though just outside, to let it cool down, etc. Why not. Even, when it would be upright, still sinking, you might be interested to let it land on a shallow seabed and, when salvageable, raise again, etc. Being able to recover a hull of a warship could be a significant saving, compared to "new". Although, this one is 40 years old, but, yeah, when having a situation with a lack of money, maybe better a wrinkled hull, than no hull. And, when still floating, a huge amount of accessories would be available for salvaging and reuse. These accessories tend to be "custom-made", so spares would be welcome.
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So - if you look closely at the higher res photos - the explosions appear to have been catastrophic. You can see buckling in the aft deck areas - and it appears the roof of the helo hangar is also buckled, below the rear radar dome. Still can’t tell if the line in the hull aft of the missile bay is smoke, or actually a break in the hull. There certainly appears to be creasing of the hull in that area.
it may simply be that this catastrophic explosion resulted in the death of many of the crew - with a significant number caught below deck and killed by the pressure wave and those that survived the initial explosion overtaken by fire and smoke.
I would not be surprised if she broke in two around that creased area.
it may simply be that this catastrophic explosion resulted in the death of many of the crew - with a significant number caught below deck and killed by the pressure wave and those that survived the initial explosion overtaken by fire and smoke.
I would not be surprised if she broke in two around that creased area.
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If you look at the bathymetric maps of the Black Sea - it looks more like she was brought to the deepest part of the sea. Broken arrow? Just didn’t want anyone to dive and have a look at her? Who knows - but she went down in the deepest part of the sea.
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Questions being asked by families as to why conscripts were on the ship and why the officers survived but the conscripts didn’t, though if you read the comments he was pro war, pro Putin and believed Ukraine shouldn’t exist right up until the war came home to him.
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And reading the responses to that, it seems the father is pro-Russia and vehemently anti-Ukraine. No tears shed here: sorry.
Assuming one can believe anything on the internet these days.
Assuming one can believe anything on the internet these days.
That crane has to be stowed forwards as it obstructs the S300 VLS cells in the aft position (presumably it has a role in handling reloads).
So either the blast from one of the Neptune warheads has sent the crane upwards, or someone raised it. In many of the photos there is a lot of smoke coming from the void where the main mast was (which is the lower mast, carrying the Top Pair / Top Steer radar). That radar & mast seems to have mostly disappeared, unless it is simply hidden by smoke. Below that mast were the machinery control rooms / the damage control rooms. Awkward.
It is just possible that someone raised the crane to try to use it to direct some firefighting hoses into the void. That is a more positive explanation than either they had not stowed it prior to action, or that it just got blown up/back. But a lot of things about this action are odd......
So either the blast from one of the Neptune warheads has sent the crane upwards, or someone raised it. In many of the photos there is a lot of smoke coming from the void where the main mast was (which is the lower mast, carrying the Top Pair / Top Steer radar). That radar & mast seems to have mostly disappeared, unless it is simply hidden by smoke. Below that mast were the machinery control rooms / the damage control rooms. Awkward.
It is just possible that someone raised the crane to try to use it to direct some firefighting hoses into the void. That is a more positive explanation than either they had not stowed it prior to action, or that it just got blown up/back. But a lot of things about this action are odd......
You can make out the gig below a protective cover in this file photo.
https://www.reporter.am/pentagon-the...erica-morning/
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ng-crew-russia
“His wife, Irina, told the independent Russian website the Insider that they had seen about 200 injured sailors at a military hospital in Crimea while looking for their son. The total crew of the Moskva was estimated at just over 500.
“We looked at every burnt kid,” she told the Insider. “I can’t tell you how hard it was, but I couldn’t find mine. There were only 200 people, and there were more than 500 onboard the cruiser.
Where were the others? We looked in Krasnodar, and everywhere else, we called every place, but we couldn’t find him.”….
“His wife, Irina, told the independent Russian website the Insider that they had seen about 200 injured sailors at a military hospital in Crimea while looking for their son. The total crew of the Moskva was estimated at just over 500.
“We looked at every burnt kid,” she told the Insider. “I can’t tell you how hard it was, but I couldn’t find mine. There were only 200 people, and there were more than 500 onboard the cruiser.
Where were the others? We looked in Krasnodar, and everywhere else, we called every place, but we couldn’t find him.”….
So - if you look closely at the higher res photos - the explosions appear to have been catastrophic. You can see buckling in the aft deck areas - and it appears the roof of the helo hangar is also buckled, below the rear radar dome. Still can’t tell if the line in the hull aft of the missile bay is smoke, or actually a break in the hull. There certainly appears to be creasing of the hull in that area.
it may simply be that this catastrophic explosion resulted in the death of many of the crew - with a significant number caught below deck and killed by the pressure wave and those that survived the initial explosion overtaken by fire and smoke.
I would not be surprised if she broke in two around that creased area.
it may simply be that this catastrophic explosion resulted in the death of many of the crew - with a significant number caught below deck and killed by the pressure wave and those that survived the initial explosion overtaken by fire and smoke.
I would not be surprised if she broke in two around that creased area.
Checking further, it looks like, the helo desk does have a big hole in it, with, as it seems, penetration from the top and a subsequent big explosion underneath the deck, maybe even 1 or 2 decks lower, inside the ship. Not to mention the crumbling and burn damage visible all over the port side on the deck below the helo deck.
Could it be Neptune Nr 2 did penetrate the helo deck and just blew up the whole inside of the stern section ? Given there will be not that many explosives and/or fuel around there, the only igniting stuff would be the neptune warhead itself with maybe some residual neptune fuel.
This could certainly explain the damage to the rear part of the ship and in front of the helo hangar, the structure below the rear radar dome itself. That part seems to be completely blown up from the inside out.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ng-crew-russia
“His wife, Irina, told the independent Russian website the Insider that they had seen about 200 injured sailors at a military hospital in Crimea while looking for their son. The total crew of the Moskva was estimated at just over 500.
“We looked at every burnt kid,” she told the Insider. “I can’t tell you how hard it was, but I couldn’t find mine. There were only 200 people, and there were more than 500 onboard the cruiser.
Where were the others? We looked in Krasnodar, and everywhere else, we called every place, but we couldn’t find him.”….
“His wife, Irina, told the independent Russian website the Insider that they had seen about 200 injured sailors at a military hospital in Crimea while looking for their son. The total crew of the Moskva was estimated at just over 500.
“We looked at every burnt kid,” she told the Insider. “I can’t tell you how hard it was, but I couldn’t find mine. There were only 200 people, and there were more than 500 onboard the cruiser.
Where were the others? We looked in Krasnodar, and everywhere else, we called every place, but we couldn’t find him.”….
https://m.vk.com/d.vetrov78?from=post
Or, so to say: It could very well be, significantly less Russians managed to escape the inferno (and those unharmed, parading in the thank-you-hero propaganda, are just staged actors, or this is a completely different event ......)
Dmitry Shkrebets
today at 7:29 pm
Here is the correspondence of the brother of one of the missing guys from the cruiser "Moskva" with the deputy commander of the division Bugorsky.
People were first informed that the sailor was alive, a day later they were informed that he was missing.
And today, after we wrote a statement to the military registration and enlistment office, they reported that he had died.
What's going on? Why are we being bullied like this?
Dmitry Shkrebets
today at 7:08 pm
Information is being circulated, by some false people, that my wife allegedly saw 200 sailors with burns in the hospital, and that we came to the FSB of Sevastopol and quarreled with someone there - this is a lie.
I went to Sevastopol with two people who helped me, without my wife.
We did not see the wounded, we were looking for our son on lists with surnames.
{snip, teaching a man to fish}
Dmitry Shkrebets
today at 1:15 pm
We were contacted by three families from Yalta, Alupka and St. Petersburg, whose children are also missing, also conscripts.
Today we wrote applications together at the local military enlistment office, tomorrow they will be at the military commissariat of Simferopol.
We need written answers to our questions about the location of our children, and not SMS with pictures and wishes to pray ... Here, on the spot, everyone was sympathetic to our misfortune, we are very grateful.
{snip teach a man to fish}
today at 7:29 pm
Here is the correspondence of the brother of one of the missing guys from the cruiser "Moskva" with the deputy commander of the division Bugorsky.
People were first informed that the sailor was alive, a day later they were informed that he was missing.
And today, after we wrote a statement to the military registration and enlistment office, they reported that he had died.
What's going on? Why are we being bullied like this?
Dmitry Shkrebets
today at 7:08 pm
Information is being circulated, by some false people, that my wife allegedly saw 200 sailors with burns in the hospital, and that we came to the FSB of Sevastopol and quarreled with someone there - this is a lie.
I went to Sevastopol with two people who helped me, without my wife.
We did not see the wounded, we were looking for our son on lists with surnames.
{snip, teaching a man to fish}
Dmitry Shkrebets
today at 1:15 pm
We were contacted by three families from Yalta, Alupka and St. Petersburg, whose children are also missing, also conscripts.
Today we wrote applications together at the local military enlistment office, tomorrow they will be at the military commissariat of Simferopol.
We need written answers to our questions about the location of our children, and not SMS with pictures and wishes to pray ... Here, on the spot, everyone was sympathetic to our misfortune, we are very grateful.
{snip teach a man to fish}
Last edited by T28B; 18th Apr 2022 at 19:52. Reason: If you won't edit out the noise (see brackets) your posts will be removed. You have been warned.
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I see no hole in the heli pad, just a pile of debris near the centre spot.
Whichever, the ship has gone. What effect that will have on the land campaign remains to be seen. I’m not comforted by apparent Russian progress in that respect.
Whichever, the ship has gone. What effect that will have on the land campaign remains to be seen. I’m not comforted by apparent Russian progress in that respect.
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Interesting to see the fire damage and black square forward of the rear deck step down below the hangar as is that not the missing torpedo door so it looks like they have gone up or have been jettisoned?
you can just make it out below the liferaft stowages on this image and it correlates with the black square on the top image. Also it looks like the motor launch is still onboard just below the stacks, all be it destroyed, is that a rotor lying on the fwd hangar deck far side?
Last edited by NutLoose; 18th Apr 2022 at 20:38.
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I do wonder considering the uproar when the photos were released of the F35’s going overboard whether there is a witch-hunt going on in Russia to find out who let these out, not exactly what Russia would want emblazoned all over the web and the worlds press.
Do we have a credible positon for the wreck yet?
Some say in deepest water which is quite contrary to my observations - and if there really are "jackups" in attendance surely they must be identifiable? My amateur research on AIS has been inconclusive, bar one site that showed multiple utility assets right about where I thougt the incident happened, and in (very roughly) rather less than 100 m of water.
Ideas?
Some say in deepest water which is quite contrary to my observations - and if there really are "jackups" in attendance surely they must be identifiable? My amateur research on AIS has been inconclusive, bar one site that showed multiple utility assets right about where I thougt the incident happened, and in (very roughly) rather less than 100 m of water.
Ideas?