F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson
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Yes the digital fly by wire flight controls with DFP work their magic overtime sometimes. One may consider large movements as the aircraft powers through the burble (turbulence mostly created by the island but also the deck) behind the carrier. Some of the many videos available below.
F-35C Aileron Flaperon IDLC FCLP Demo [very good flaperoonie action]
________________________________________
F-35C Carrier Landing Arrest USS Nimitz Nov 2014
________________________________________
F-35C DT II First Arrests 02 Oct '15 IKE SLOWMO HALF AGAIN
________________________________________
X-35C & F-35C FCLP & Arrests NIMITZ Nov 2014
F-35C Aileron Flaperon IDLC FCLP Demo [very good flaperoonie action]
F-35C Carrier Landing Arrest USS Nimitz Nov 2014
F-35C DT II First Arrests 02 Oct '15 IKE SLOWMO HALF AGAIN
X-35C & F-35C FCLP & Arrests NIMITZ Nov 2014
Peripheral but related question - and I realise outcomes can vary according to circumstances.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.
Peripheral but related question - and I realise outcomes can vary according to circumstances.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.
The aircraft cost some $100MM, more than 10x what the pilot makes in his/her lifetime and there are hordes of eager replacements.
In war time, when there is a shortage of pilots, it might be different, but now it is just a belated wash out.
I was under the impression that cables are lifed by age and number of pulls (landings into an individual pendant) and visually checked for gross damage after each use. If you are going to nearly always have 3-wire landings this would not change the pendants' life but the Head Badger might want to shuffle them around to get some wear from the others.
I wonder if this is a late life cable that has received an in limits but off-centerline pull?
N
I wonder if this is a late life cable that has received an in limits but off-centerline pull?
N
Last edited by mangere1957; 9th Feb 2022 at 21:54. Reason: Typo removed
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Navy’s MAGIC CARPET Simplifies Carrier Landings; Interim Fielding This Fall [Jun 2016]
https://news.usni.org/2016/06/30/nav...-fielding-fall
"...Kindley said the average pilot makes 200 to 300 corrections in the final 18 seconds before landing. With MAGIC CARPET, test data showed the first-timers making about 20 corrections while flying on the ball, with that figure dropping below 10 once the pilots got used to the system...."
The Burble Effect: Superstructure and Flight Deck Effects on Carrier Air Wake [2010]
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA527798.pdf (0.5Mb)
"The purpose of the present work was to qualitatively and quantitatively model the air wake created by an aircraft carrier flight deck and superstructure in order to understand how it affects aircraft on approach and landing. The “burble effect” is the name given by navy pilots to the velocity deficit and downwash field immediately aft of an aircraft carrier. This turbulent region of air has adverse effects on landing aircraft and can cause pilots to bolter, missing the arresting wires and requiring another landing attempt...."
...D. Discussion/Conclusion
It is important to note that the study conducted on the effect of the fillets on the deck/hull vortex was conducted at a length of two feet behind the carrier. As previously stated, this length corresponds to distance of 380 feet aft of a real, full-scale carrier. Even at this distance, the vortex and burble appeared relatively intact. Due to equipment and wind tunnel mounting restraints, it was not possible to analyze the deck/hull vortex and burble effect immediately over and aft of the flight deck. The deck/hull vortex appears to be “sucked” upwards through the “notch” in the back of the carrier flight deck and subsequently rolls downstream behind the carrier. The addition of the large fillet drastically appears to reduce the intensity of the deck/hull vortex, even at a full-scale distance of 380 feet. Therefore, it would appear to be beneficial to fill in the “notch” in the back, port corner of the flight deck on aircraft carriers. Not only would this fillet reduce the deck/hull vortex and prevent it from rushing up and over the landing/approach area, but it would also provide room for aircraft and/or equipment storage. The burble effect is caused by multiple factors such as free stream velocity deficits, upwash and downwash, and vortices that are generated from the superstructure and the deck/hull. All of these various aspects of the burble combine to produce the increased sink rate on approach that has been described by many carrier pilots. Additionally, an aircraft carrier’s superstructure and flight deck geometry both contribute to the burble effect. Since Nimitz class carrier construction has ended and Ford class carrier construction has just begun, the potential exists for future carriers to be designed such that the burble effect becomes reduced."
FILLET to reduce THE BURBLE? - Shifley Lecture USS Ford Class
https://news.usni.org/2016/06/30/nav...-fielding-fall
"...Kindley said the average pilot makes 200 to 300 corrections in the final 18 seconds before landing. With MAGIC CARPET, test data showed the first-timers making about 20 corrections while flying on the ball, with that figure dropping below 10 once the pilots got used to the system...."
The Burble Effect: Superstructure and Flight Deck Effects on Carrier Air Wake [2010]
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA527798.pdf (0.5Mb)
"The purpose of the present work was to qualitatively and quantitatively model the air wake created by an aircraft carrier flight deck and superstructure in order to understand how it affects aircraft on approach and landing. The “burble effect” is the name given by navy pilots to the velocity deficit and downwash field immediately aft of an aircraft carrier. This turbulent region of air has adverse effects on landing aircraft and can cause pilots to bolter, missing the arresting wires and requiring another landing attempt...."
...D. Discussion/Conclusion
It is important to note that the study conducted on the effect of the fillets on the deck/hull vortex was conducted at a length of two feet behind the carrier. As previously stated, this length corresponds to distance of 380 feet aft of a real, full-scale carrier. Even at this distance, the vortex and burble appeared relatively intact. Due to equipment and wind tunnel mounting restraints, it was not possible to analyze the deck/hull vortex and burble effect immediately over and aft of the flight deck. The deck/hull vortex appears to be “sucked” upwards through the “notch” in the back of the carrier flight deck and subsequently rolls downstream behind the carrier. The addition of the large fillet drastically appears to reduce the intensity of the deck/hull vortex, even at a full-scale distance of 380 feet. Therefore, it would appear to be beneficial to fill in the “notch” in the back, port corner of the flight deck on aircraft carriers. Not only would this fillet reduce the deck/hull vortex and prevent it from rushing up and over the landing/approach area, but it would also provide room for aircraft and/or equipment storage. The burble effect is caused by multiple factors such as free stream velocity deficits, upwash and downwash, and vortices that are generated from the superstructure and the deck/hull. All of these various aspects of the burble combine to produce the increased sink rate on approach that has been described by many carrier pilots. Additionally, an aircraft carrier’s superstructure and flight deck geometry both contribute to the burble effect. Since Nimitz class carrier construction has ended and Ford class carrier construction has just begun, the potential exists for future carriers to be designed such that the burble effect becomes reduced."
FILLET to reduce THE BURBLE? - Shifley Lecture USS Ford Class
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 10th Feb 2022 at 06:23. Reason: asis + vid + txt MAGII
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USS Carl Vinson Recovered Quickly After F-35C Ramp Strike, Say Officials 15 Feb 2022
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/15/uss...-say-officials
"...After replacing the four arresting wires 30 to 45 minutes following the crash, the carrier was quickly ready to recover aircraft again, according to a defense official. “When the mishap happened, we had additional aircraft airborne that needed to land. So the training kicked in immediately. And I was in awe watching … everybody on the flight deck – including the air wing personnel – respond to that emergency because we had to replace all four wires. We had to pick up things off the flight deck so that we could clear the [landing area] to clear all the [foreign object debris],” the official said. With USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72) operating near Vinson, the aircraft waiting to land aboard Vinson landed and refueled on Lincoln while the crew cleared Vinson’s flight deck after the crash...."
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/15/uss...-say-officials
"...After replacing the four arresting wires 30 to 45 minutes following the crash, the carrier was quickly ready to recover aircraft again, according to a defense official. “When the mishap happened, we had additional aircraft airborne that needed to land. So the training kicked in immediately. And I was in awe watching … everybody on the flight deck – including the air wing personnel – respond to that emergency because we had to replace all four wires. We had to pick up things off the flight deck so that we could clear the [landing area] to clear all the [foreign object debris],” the official said. With USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72) operating near Vinson, the aircraft waiting to land aboard Vinson landed and refueled on Lincoln while the crew cleared Vinson’s flight deck after the crash...."
The account initially says that there were aircraft waiting to land at the time of the incident, but later notes they all landed on Lincoln and refuelled. That must have been a fairly early call as the Vinson's crew would be aware of the sort of time needed to change all the cables and clean up. That being the case, would it not have been better to take a bit longer to do the job and all the checks rather than an F1 pitstop type approach. Also what about using some time to debrief the DLO and his colleagues to take any learning from the incident - eg early wave off of similar approach before it all goes bad ?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Not a carrier pilot, but would think that you're doomed to a career on shore after such an event.
The aircraft cost some $100MM, more than 10x what the pilot makes in his/her lifetime and there are hordes of eager replacements.
In war time, when there is a shortage of pilots, it might be different, but now it is just a belated wash out.
The aircraft cost some $100MM, more than 10x what the pilot makes in his/her lifetime and there are hordes of eager replacements.
In war time, when there is a shortage of pilots, it might be different, but now it is just a belated wash out.
SPAZ,looking at the videos,especally the `fantail`,from lineup,in the groove,(or ditch),wings-level ,at approx 350 ft(guess) ,to passing overhead,it is about 10-11 seconds.The centreline camera only shows approx 5-6 seconds before the crash.To
me it appears that is a very short turn/lineup/too tight( at a nominal GRD/Spd of 130KTS,about 1/3 of a mile.Other aircraft (F18) appear to have a final in the `groove ` of about 18-20 seconds/3/4 nm...
There is in one of those u-tube videos a video of an Etendard pilot,working his nuts off coming aboard the CdG .. !!...
And ,yes,I have deck-landed many times.....but only after a short hover... usually..
me it appears that is a very short turn/lineup/too tight( at a nominal GRD/Spd of 130KTS,about 1/3 of a mile.Other aircraft (F18) appear to have a final in the `groove ` of about 18-20 seconds/3/4 nm...
There is in one of those u-tube videos a video of an Etendard pilot,working his nuts off coming aboard the CdG .. !!...
And ,yes,I have deck-landed many times.....but only after a short hover... usually..
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Thanks 'sycamore' it is difficult to judge times from videos when one does not know supporting details. USN LSOs usually have stated in the past that a carrier approach starts 'when it starts' not just when aircraft is at 'call the ball' which may occur before wings level and aircraft lined up IF on a short straightaway. Many variables are at play. Things will be clear when we have voice comms between pilot & LSO and more video footage. The approach generally is graded BEFORE 'call the ball' whilst 'a good start' is essential they say and to me it seems from LIMITED EVIDENCE my guess is the ramp chap DID NOT HAVE A GOOD START but what do I know. Yeah right. Meanwhile here is another view of the aftermath: Carrier Carl Vinson was back in fighting condition within 45 minutes of F-35C crash, leaders say (defensenews.com)
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The account initially says that there were aircraft waiting to land at the time of the incident, but later notes they all landed on Lincoln and refuelled. That must have been a fairly early call as the Vinson's crew would be aware of the sort of time needed to change all the cables and clean up. That being the case, would it not have been better to take a bit longer to do the job and all the checks rather than an F1 pitstop type approach. Also what about using some time to debrief the DLO and his colleagues to take any learning from the incident - eg early wave off of similar approach before it all goes bad ?
And to think early jets Deck Landed on Axial Deck Carriers under control of the LSO armed with PADDLES.
LSO Paddles Banshee FCLP 1948
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 16th Feb 2022 at 22:01. Reason: xtra vid
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My short excerpt from this longer clip has been removed from Uboob for UNK reasons known only to fwits there. Meanwhile LSO fun:
[LSOs Doan Impres Me Much Satire Song FULL VIDEO] Women of USS RONALD REAGAN (CVN 76)
[LSOs Doan Impres Me Much Satire Song FULL VIDEO] Women of USS RONALD REAGAN (CVN 76)
Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”
Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…
Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky. Then again, that adds an additional problem if the retractable windshield fails to retract.
Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…
Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky. Then again, that adds an additional problem if the retractable windshield fails to retract.
Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
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Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?” Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist… Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson
Otherwise online there will be plenty of PDFs about this problem of the burble and what to do about it in the past - present info difficult to find. When JPALS becomes fully operational for the F-35C to carry out auto deck landings with extreme precision then as mentioned it may become the way to recover the and subsequent aircraft. However at moment as mentioned earlier JPALS is intended for night, rough weather (which often occurs at night with low cloud/poor visibiility) and so on. Reducing carrier landing accidents has been a feature of the gradual and safer development of such things over the last century in the USN (and other navies by the by). The introduction of the mirror, angled decks devised by the RN made an incredible difference to landings until the present. People have complained about the USN slow changes to Aviation ops - but IS IT SAFE!?
IS IT SAFE IS IT SAFE IS IT SAFE Marathon Man Horror Question
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 17th Feb 2022 at 02:08. Reason: +txt&vid
Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”
Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…
Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky. Then again, that adds an additional problem if the retractable windshield fails to retract.
Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…
Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky. Then again, that adds an additional problem if the retractable windshield fails to retract.
Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
After that you finalise by including all the other constraints and 'wants', expecting to get something that will not be perfect, but that should be acceptable to a minimum standard pilot on the approach.
Then you can build and try a wind tunnel model to see what that tells you. Often it tells you nowt, for good engineering and physics reasons.
Then you build a war canoe, and do what Spaz has pointed to, to see what you got. Finally you put a calibrated test pilot into an aircraft and get him/her to go look at it for real.
Magic Carpet, and follow on systems are an attempt to tackle the problem from the other end. Build something that can cope with the conditions behind your carrier, whatever they are likely to be.
As a side benefit you get a bigger potential pool of carrier pilots, because they don't have to be able to fly the meatball in any conditions.
N
Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”
Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…
Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky.
Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…
Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky.
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UPDATED: 4 Chiefs, Ensign Facing Charges Over Release of USS Carl Vinson F-35C Crash Video
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/17/fou...ss-carl-vinson
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/17/fou...ss-carl-vinson
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 18th Feb 2022 at 04:22. Reason: hoo cares?
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
UPDATED: 4 Chiefs, Ensign Facing Charges Over Release of USS Carl Vinson F-35C Crash Video
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/17/fou...ss-carl-vinson
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/17/fou...ss-carl-vinson
As usual only the benefits of smartphones and similar devices seem to have been taken into account, e.g. they can be used to navigate around the ship and locate other personnel, and they are essential for recruitment and retention - the current generation won't serve with out constant connectivity with their loved ones.
Is that thing on your wrist service issue?
No, sir.
Remove it, if I see it again when you are on watch it'll get a float test.
Personally, I think today's generation is just like mine in wanting to push the boundaries, however given a good rationale they will obey the rules.
Is that thing on your wrist service issue?
No, sir.
Remove it, if I see it again when you are on watch it'll get a float test.
Personally, I think today's generation is just like mine in wanting to push the boundaries, however given a good rationale they will obey the rules.