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F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson

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F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson

Old 9th Feb 2022, 20:48
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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Yes the digital fly by wire flight controls with DFP work their magic overtime sometimes. One may consider large movements as the aircraft powers through the burble (turbulence mostly created by the island but also the deck) behind the carrier. Some of the many videos available below.

F-35C Aileron Flaperon IDLC FCLP Demo [very good flaperoonie action]

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F-35C Carrier Landing Arrest USS Nimitz Nov 2014

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F-35C DT II First Arrests 02 Oct '15 IKE SLOWMO HALF AGAIN

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X-35C & F-35C FCLP & Arrests NIMITZ Nov 2014

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Old 9th Feb 2022, 20:54
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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Peripheral but related question - and I realise outcomes can vary according to circumstances.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 21:21
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tartare View Post
Peripheral but related question - and I realise outcomes can vary according to circumstances.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.
Not a carrier pilot, but would think that you're doomed to a career on shore after such an event.
The aircraft cost some $100MM, more than 10x what the pilot makes in his/her lifetime and there are hordes of eager replacements.
In war time, when there is a shortage of pilots, it might be different, but now it is just a belated wash out.
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 21:54
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bengo View Post
I was under the impression that cables are lifed by age and number of pulls (landings into an individual pendant) and visually checked for gross damage after each use. If you are going to nearly always have 3-wire landings this would not change the pendants' life but the Head Badger might want to shuffle them around to get some wear from the others.

I wonder if this is a late life cable that has received an in limits but off-centerline pull?
N
Bengo the cables don't matter much when you've hit the rounddown and wiped off the LG

Last edited by mangere1957; 9th Feb 2022 at 21:54. Reason: Typo removed
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Old 9th Feb 2022, 23:32
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Navy’s MAGIC CARPET Simplifies Carrier Landings; Interim Fielding This Fall [Jun 2016]
https://news.usni.org/2016/06/30/nav...-fielding-fall
"...Kindley said the average pilot makes 200 to 300 corrections in the final 18 seconds before landing. With MAGIC CARPET, test data showed the first-timers making about 20 corrections while flying on the ball, with that figure dropping below 10 once the pilots got used to the system...."

The Burble Effect: Superstructure and Flight Deck Effects on Carrier Air Wake [2010]
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA527798.pdf (0.5Mb)

"The purpose of the present work was to qualitatively and quantitatively model the air wake created by an aircraft carrier flight deck and superstructure in order to understand how it affects aircraft on approach and landing. The “burble effect” is the name given by navy pilots to the velocity deficit and downwash field immediately aft of an aircraft carrier. This turbulent region of air has adverse effects on landing aircraft and can cause pilots to bolter, missing the arresting wires and requiring another landing attempt...."

...D. Discussion/Conclusion
It is important to note that the study conducted on the effect of the fillets on the deck/hull vortex was conducted at a length of two feet behind the carrier. As previously stated, this length corresponds to distance of 380 feet aft of a real, full-scale carrier. Even at this distance, the vortex and burble appeared relatively intact. Due to equipment and wind tunnel mounting restraints, it was not possible to analyze the deck/hull vortex and burble effect immediately over and aft of the flight deck. The deck/hull vortex appears to be “sucked” upwards through the “notch” in the back of the carrier flight deck and subsequently rolls downstream behind the carrier. The addition of the large fillet drastically appears to reduce the intensity of the deck/hull vortex, even at a full-scale distance of 380 feet. Therefore, it would appear to be beneficial to fill in the “notch” in the back, port corner of the flight deck on aircraft carriers. Not only would this fillet reduce the deck/hull vortex and prevent it from rushing up and over the landing/approach area, but it would also provide room for aircraft and/or equipment storage. The burble effect is caused by multiple factors such as free stream velocity deficits, upwash and downwash, and vortices that are generated from the superstructure and the deck/hull. All of these various aspects of the burble combine to produce the increased sink rate on approach that has been described by many carrier pilots. Additionally, an aircraft carrier’s superstructure and flight deck geometry both contribute to the burble effect. Since Nimitz class carrier construction has ended and Ford class carrier construction has just begun, the potential exists for future carriers to be designed such that the burble effect becomes reduced."



FILLET to reduce THE BURBLE? - Shifley Lecture USS Ford Class


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 10th Feb 2022 at 06:23. Reason: asis + vid + txt MAGII
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Old 16th Feb 2022, 07:45
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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USS Carl Vinson Recovered Quickly After F-35C Ramp Strike, Say Officials 15 Feb 2022
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/15/uss...-say-officials
"...After replacing the four arresting wires 30 to 45 minutes following the crash, the carrier was quickly ready to recover aircraft again, according to a defense official. “When the mishap happened, we had additional aircraft airborne that needed to land. So the training kicked in immediately. And I was in awe watching … everybody on the flight deck – including the air wing personnel – respond to that emergency because we had to replace all four wires. We had to pick up things off the flight deck so that we could clear the [landing area] to clear all the [foreign object debris],” the official said. With USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72) operating near Vinson, the aircraft waiting to land aboard Vinson landed and refueled on Lincoln while the crew cleared Vinson’s flight deck after the crash...."
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Old 16th Feb 2022, 14:55
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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The account initially says that there were aircraft waiting to land at the time of the incident, but later notes they all landed on Lincoln and refuelled. That must have been a fairly early call as the Vinson's crew would be aware of the sort of time needed to change all the cables and clean up. That being the case, would it not have been better to take a bit longer to do the job and all the checks rather than an F1 pitstop type approach. Also what about using some time to debrief the DLO and his colleagues to take any learning from the incident - eg early wave off of similar approach before it all goes bad ?
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Old 16th Feb 2022, 16:39
  #108 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
Not a carrier pilot, but would think that you're doomed to a career on shore after such an event.
The aircraft cost some $100MM, more than 10x what the pilot makes in his/her lifetime and there are hordes of eager replacements.
In war time, when there is a shortage of pilots, it might be different, but now it is just a belated wash out.
That's why the outcome of the investigation is crucial, but it's hard to see a scenario where 'negligence' is a factor. You might have Human Factors in play that used to be tarred with the "Pilot Error" brush - e.g Training - Recency, etc. but as with any aircraft landing, nobody is more incentivized to get it right than the person on the controls. The only difference with a carrier landing is all other options to getting it 100% right have been removed. The cost of the accident/damage is only ever a factor if somebody has royally screwed up, as in actual negligence or culpable behavior. The military has plenty of successful careers littered with very expensive mistakes and mishaps, but no-one is getting billed for a $100M jet, whatever the reason it went in. As for the pilot, it's always cheaper to refresh and retrain than replace, depending of course on what happened on the day.
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Old 16th Feb 2022, 17:52
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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SPAZ,looking at the videos,especally the `fantail`,from lineup,in the groove,(or ditch),wings-level ,at approx 350 ft(guess) ,to passing overhead,it is about 10-11 seconds.The centreline camera only shows approx 5-6 seconds before the crash.To
me it appears that is a very short turn/lineup/too tight( at a nominal GRD/Spd of 130KTS,about 1/3 of a mile.Other aircraft (F18) appear to have a final in the `groove ` of about 18-20 seconds/3/4 nm...
There is in one of those u-tube videos a video of an Etendard pilot,working his nuts off coming aboard the CdG .. !!...
And ,yes,I have deck-landed many times.....but only after a short hover... usually..

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Old 16th Feb 2022, 18:35
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks 'sycamore' it is difficult to judge times from videos when one does not know supporting details. USN LSOs usually have stated in the past that a carrier approach starts 'when it starts' not just when aircraft is at 'call the ball' which may occur before wings level and aircraft lined up IF on a short straightaway. Many variables are at play. Things will be clear when we have voice comms between pilot & LSO and more video footage. The approach generally is graded BEFORE 'call the ball' whilst 'a good start' is essential they say and to me it seems from LIMITED EVIDENCE my guess is the ramp chap DID NOT HAVE A GOOD START but what do I know. Yeah right. Meanwhile here is another view of the aftermath: Carrier Carl Vinson was back in fighting condition within 45 minutes of F-35C crash, leaders say (defensenews.com)
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Old 16th Feb 2022, 21:52
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CAEBr View Post
The account initially says that there were aircraft waiting to land at the time of the incident, but later notes they all landed on Lincoln and refuelled. That must have been a fairly early call as the Vinson's crew would be aware of the sort of time needed to change all the cables and clean up. That being the case, would it not have been better to take a bit longer to do the job and all the checks rather than an F1 pitstop type approach. Also what about using some time to debrief the DLO and his colleagues to take any learning from the incident - eg early wave off of similar approach before it all goes bad ?
I don't believe there is enough public information to know why events after happened as described. I would like to know what is: "...an F1 pitstop type approach..." and where it was? I'll assume DLO means 'Deck Landing Officer' which you really mean to be LSO Landing Signals Officer. Earlier it was explained that the 'controlling LSO' may have been under training with his/her experienced LSO monitoring with access to devices to also monitor the approach. IF one thinks the W flashing on the ILARTS video happens BEFORE the WAVE OFF radio call by the controlling LSO then IF THAT is the case it is likely the supervisor LSO hit the WAVE OFF button to cause RED LIGHTS to flash on the IFLOLS Improved Fresnel Lens Optical Landing System (it is not really Fresnel Lens now but that is how it is named from previous original FLOLS). There are advisory and mandatory LSO calls to the approaching pilot. WAVE OFF is MANDATORY and must be obeyed instantly. Not having been a burner pilot I did not catch the BURNER BURNER call by the LSO after the WAVE OFF so I'll guess this is also mandatory. Yes the LSO crowd are a critical bunch not only of pilots but themselves so they will have watched the videos and debriefed to the nth degree. They will want to hear the pilot side of the story also. LSOs are easy to make fun of however they have saved many a pilot/aircraft in dire situations by having the experience and pilot trust to obey their calls or advice. In days of yore the RN LSOs used the term 'on the roger' to indicate during the approach sometimes and during pilot debriefs that the aircraft is on glideslope on speed & lined up correctly. LSO Debrief HMS Eagle 'On The Roger' 1968

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And to think early jets Deck Landed on Axial Deck Carriers under control of the LSO armed with PADDLES.

LSO Paddles Banshee FCLP 1948



Last edited by SpazSinbad; 16th Feb 2022 at 22:01. Reason: xtra vid
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Old 16th Feb 2022, 22:23
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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My short excerpt from this longer clip has been removed from Uboob for UNK reasons known only to fwits there. Meanwhile LSO fun:

[LSOs Doan Impres Me Much Satire Song FULL VIDEO] Women of USS RONALD REAGAN (CVN 76)

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Old 16th Feb 2022, 23:58
  #113 (permalink)  
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Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”

Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…

Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky. Then again, that adds an additional problem if the retractable windshield fails to retract.

Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
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Old 17th Feb 2022, 01:55
  #114 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by visibility3miles View Post
Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?” Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist… Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
This post above points to how work goes into this problem for the FORD class:
F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson
Otherwise online there will be plenty of PDFs about this problem of the burble and what to do about it in the past - present info difficult to find. When JPALS becomes fully operational for the F-35C to carry out auto deck landings with extreme precision then as mentioned it may become the way to recover the and subsequent aircraft. However at moment as mentioned earlier JPALS is intended for night, rough weather (which often occurs at night with low cloud/poor visibiility) and so on. Reducing carrier landing accidents has been a feature of the gradual and safer development of such things over the last century in the USN (and other navies by the by). The introduction of the mirror, angled decks devised by the RN made an incredible difference to landings until the present. People have complained about the USN slow changes to Aviation ops - but IS IT SAFE!?

IS IT SAFE IS IT SAFE IS IT SAFE Marathon Man Horror Question


Last edited by SpazSinbad; 17th Feb 2022 at 02:08. Reason: +txt&vid
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Old 17th Feb 2022, 08:09
  #115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by visibility3miles View Post
Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”

Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…

Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky. Then again, that adds an additional problem if the retractable windshield fails to retract.

Make the approach to landing on an aircraft carrier as easy as possible would probably pay off in terms of lowering the stress level just a notch, even if the deck is pitching and heaving.
The capability of computational fluid dynamics to handle these things is increasing steadily, as computer power grows. Nonetheless it involves trying to solve the Navier Stokes equations- 3 interrelated partial differential equations- over a significant period of time and a substantial space. That is serious number-crunching- as hard as designing modern VSTOL aircraft. Like a lot of engineering, the answer you get also depends on the assumptions at the input. As a result the 'answer' to modelling whether it is CFD for shipbuilders, CFD for weather men or CFD for architects and builders is a range of outcomes of varying probability. The model with 100% probability does not exist.

After that you finalise by including all the other constraints and 'wants', expecting to get something that will not be perfect, but that should be acceptable to a minimum standard pilot on the approach.

Then you can build and try a wind tunnel model to see what that tells you. Often it tells you nowt, for good engineering and physics reasons.

Then you build a war canoe, and do what Spaz has pointed to, to see what you got. Finally you put a calibrated test pilot into an aircraft and get him/her to go look at it for real.

Magic Carpet, and follow on systems are an attempt to tackle the problem from the other end. Build something that can cope with the conditions behind your carrier, whatever they are likely to be.
As a side benefit you get a bigger potential pool of carrier pilots, because they don't have to be able to fly the meatball in any conditions.
N


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Old 17th Feb 2022, 08:10
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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Devil

Originally Posted by visibility3miles View Post
Just asking, but can’t they do something to change the shape of things on the ship to reduce the “burble affect?”

Get someone like an audio engineer that knows how to design things that affect acoustic waves or an architect or architectural engineer that knows how to deal with wind blowing around buildings and other stationary objects? These people exist…

Wild stab in the dark, maybe have a retractable windshield in front of other planes on deck would make the winds less tricky.
Or, they could just land from the other end?


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Old 17th Feb 2022, 09:05
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy View Post
Or, they could just land from the other end?
The Doors - The End - THIS IS THE END





Last edited by SpazSinbad; 17th Feb 2022 at 09:45. Reason: + JPG
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Old 18th Feb 2022, 04:20
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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UPDATED: 4 Chiefs, Ensign Facing Charges Over Release of USS Carl Vinson F-35C Crash Video
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/17/fou...ss-carl-vinson

Last edited by SpazSinbad; 18th Feb 2022 at 04:22. Reason: hoo cares?
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Old 18th Feb 2022, 16:44
  #119 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SpazSinbad View Post
UPDATED: 4 Chiefs, Ensign Facing Charges Over Release of USS Carl Vinson F-35C Crash Video
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/17/fou...ss-carl-vinson
Well, you didn't need a mind-reading stage act to see this coming. Not quite sure how you get to E7/E8 and not understand consequences like this.
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Old 18th Feb 2022, 20:12
  #120 (permalink)  
 
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As usual only the benefits of smartphones and similar devices seem to have been taken into account, e.g. they can be used to navigate around the ship and locate other personnel, and they are essential for recruitment and retention - the current generation won't serve with out constant connectivity with their loved ones.

Is that thing on your wrist service issue?
No, sir.
Remove it, if I see it again when you are on watch it'll get a float test.

Personally, I think today's generation is just like mine in wanting to push the boundaries, however given a good rationale they will obey the rules.
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