F-35C Accident - USS Carl Vinson

[John Eacott]

Originally Posted by Ewan Whosearmy

Or, they could just land from the other end?

Easy-peasy....

[SpazSinbad]

FIFY (Fixed It For You) /eagle_from_Daft_facing_landing_140_3_spot_4.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

F-35C DT-I USS NIMITZ 2014 DFP Delta Flight Path Tests [who knows what happened for ramp strike?]

You Tube

[megan]

Originally Posted by tartare View Post
Peripheral but related question - and I realise outcomes can vary according to circumstances.
I'm prompted to ask by the references to `career-ending'.
If one crashes a jet, but doesn't kill anyone else and is ruled by a board of inquiry to be responsible through negligence - broadly what happens?
Does a court martial follow - and then a discharge from the respective service?
If that happens - is it dishonorable?
Or do you remain simply get transferred to some lowly, obscure non-flying role?
Do you lose rank?
The black mark would hang over you.
I'm thinking of that pilot... there are a lot of rumours circulating that it was one of the young women inducted to fly the F-35.
If so, I can only imagine the scorn circulating in some parts of the Navy.
Even if it was a pilot cockup - I hope these days there'd be a degree of support while the process was unfolding - as a proud professional military aviator regardless of gender- you'd feel absolutely devastated.

Could depend, Ernie Christensen flew the F-4 in the #4 position for the Blue Angels, made an unintentional gear up landing (ie forgot the wheels) and ejected at an air show, so the crowd got their monies worth. he went on to be Commanding Office for TOPGUN, the USS Kansas City, and the USS Ranger amongst others and retired in 1997. Today, Christensen is open to sharing his experience, as he wants it to be used as a learning for future aviators.

You Tube

[tartare]

That is quite a story.
I'd just assumed that if you pranged a jet due to demonstrable pilot error - you were toast.

[megan]

Some take the view that when you've just spent all that money on an individuals education why get rid of him/her.

[Ascend Charlie]

Plenty of people have done wheels-ups and stayed in the service. One of the more famous was a Mirage at Melbourne, luckily skooching along on big jug fuel tanks. Perhaps it helped that Daddy was an Air Commodore, though...

[SpazSinbad]

EMPTY DROPS are better'n NO drops that's for sure MIRACLE STORY 1974 : QAM - The Last Landing of Mirage A3-16


Then due to port wheel loss touch and going aboard MELBOURNE 887 empty drop tank skidded AMBERLEY 1978 - pilot Barry Evans rec'd an Air Force Cross for his stirling efforts that day.



Then yours TRULLy managed 300 gal short field at night arrest drop tank landing NAS Nowra after rampstrike late 1971.



A few months later at NAS Barbers Point, Hawaii 887 on a foamed runway short field arrested on 300 gal empty tanks after wheels broke (long story). Sadly only a VF-805 Line Book page survives made by 'miscreant' who went on to be the LAST A4G CO (VC-724) with yours truLLY btm left of da page.

[SpazSinbad]

The 'LAST A4G CO' John Hamilton also received an Air Force Cross for other exploits - meanwhile BAZZA explains:

MELBOURNE A4G 887 Loses Port Wheel Leut Evans 22 May 1978

You Tube

[tartare]

Interesting stories Spaz and others.
Had always thought that without exceptions the military would deal with you swiftly and ruthlessly if you bent a jet - clearly wrong.

[SpazSinbad]

Consequences for this 'senior USAF F-35A pilot' - ejecting after a bad landing at night at EGLIN AFB a few years ago - are unknown however I was surprised that the USAF accident report noted (amongst many other reasons why the pilot/aircraft crashed) the pilot did not look at the airspeed once [however he usually used an alternate method but was distracted by 'other factors'] during the approach (he left the 'airspeed hold' at about 200 KIAS when the landing airspeed is about 150 KIAS) thus landing too fast with many other bad effects from such a high airspeed. I'll guess he is still in the USAF. Read all about it here: https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ning-tool.html [aircraft was actually broken up to be used as training aids once bits made safe]

F-35A - 58TH FIGHTER SQUADRON - 33RD FIGHTER WING - EGLIN AFB, FLORIDA 19 May 2020

https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uplo...ort_Signed.pdf (0.9Mb)

[T28B]

A word of a caution to those still serving: be careful of what you post on social media.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...vy-a_220223.nl
It appears that five members of the USS Carl Vinson's crew are facing charges.

[abdunbar]

Originally Posted by Two's in

That's why the outcome of the investigation is crucial, but it's hard to see a scenario where 'negligence' is a factor.

Oh, I could see several. Still not enough info to say. How fast was the aircraft in the break? Did the ship call the break? If there are aircraft in the pattern and/or the deck is foul, it is not unusual for the ship to call your break. But if left to your own "judgement" The **** hot break is to break at the fantail, at high speed. This gives you, depending on the G's and speed a possibly wider and faster abeam, You are supposed to be "on speed" when downwind and abeam the stern. If you are not , and are still decelerating in the turn from abeam, you are outside of normal procedure and in the "**** hot" zone. Depending on your CO, you are a hero if it works, goat if it doesn't. The concept of stabilized approach was preached in the Navy before the airlines joined that bandwagon. An LSO can (in the daytime) easily tell if you are on speed at the ball call, on final, without reference to any electronics. Every airplane has unique references, for example the amount of space visible between the trailing edge of the wing and the stab. This reference is a method of seeing angle of attack from the deck. If an LSO allows a pilot to continue towards the ship when grossly un-stabilized then he would share in responsibility.

OCCAMS RAZOR says, perfectly good airplane trashed. If the pilot was known to be in some way compromised, he would have been straight in and the LSO platform would not have been so crowded. If the aircraft systems were malfunctioning the pilot would sense it, unless todays pilots have lost that ability due to automation. But I do not think that anyone could be that casual about coming aboard. Even with automation engaged, the person riding the jet would be hyper aware deviations from normal. I think that the pilot would still sense and be uncomfortable with an un-stabilized aircraft on final. Yes power setting varies with configuration, gross weight and wind over the deck but it is not that wide of a range This seems like for some reason people were pushing the envelope. There could be many who share responsibility. Ship and squadron failing to promote responsible behavior. LSO's and pilots in the **** hot mode.

Interestingly, the Navy has been allowed to bury their accident reports. They are available to people within the Navy and I am sure to government administrators and elected officials who have a need to know but the reports are not available to the public. The Air Force makes all of their accident reports available to the public.

[SpazSinbad]

'abdunbar' said: "...Interestingly, the Navy has been allowed to bury their accident reports. They are available to people within the Navy and I am sure to government administrators and elected officials who have a need to know but the reports are not available to the public. The Air Force makes all of their accident reports available to the public."

It seems the USN [have published ship collision reports] especially Naval Aviation Safety Culture has changed somewhat - being less public with any information - the old days of APPROACH (USN NavAv Safety) magazine confessions seem to be LONG GONE. <sigh>

Editorial: Truth and Consequences 17 Feb 2022 Tobias Naegele
https://www.airforcemag.com/article/...-consequences/
"Any good information operator knows that truth wins over lies. But even truth can lose its power in the face of overwhelming doubt. Under Vladimir Putin, doubt may be Russia’s most valuable export. Russia’s recipe for misinformation stirs together one part truth, three parts whopper, then puts it all on a low simmer, fan on, until the stench permeates the internet. It works.

Consider this recent incident. When a U.S. Navy F-35C crashed in the South China Sea, someone on board leaked video and images of the jet’s ill-fated wobbly approach, its fiery collision with the deck of the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, and its crash into the sea. As is normal, [SADLY] the Navy said little about the crash, leaving an opportunity for mischief. Fake news purveyors quickly produced a backstory in which the pilot allegedly complained of chest pains and cursed his COVID-19 vaccination just before punching out. Amplified by a few social media posts, the story spread. Within 24 hours, well-meaning, retired general officers were wondering if it might actually be true.

The false story was built on a foundation of disconnected truths. The plane really did crash; evidence really was leaked from aboard the Vinson; the military really does require COVID-19 vaccines; myocarditis is a real, if rare, adverse effect of mRNA vaccines....

...Be a good intelligence officer. Weigh the value of each source. Decide what to discount. Like a passenger in a canoe, leaning too far right or left leaves you wet all over. A lone source will almost inevitably lead to an unbalanced story...."

[SpazSinbad]

Naval Aviation Safety not mentioned in this PR text I guess with lots of boiler plate feel good platitudes but it is a start I suppose....
Navy Formally Stands Up Naval Safety Command 04 Feb 2022 Heather Mongilio
https://news.usni.org/2022/02/04/nav...safety-command
"The Navy has a new command after the Naval Safety Center was formally converted into the Naval Safety Command on Friday morning. The Naval Safety Command is a two-star command, which will focus on ensuring the service’s health and well-being. The command has historically been responsible for collecting data on Navy and Marine Corps mishaps.

The Naval Safety Command will be led by Rear Adm. Fredrick “Lucky” Luchtman, who oversaw it as the Naval Safety Center...."

[SLXOwft]

As I mentioned here Fire - USS Bonhomme Richard LHD-6 - 12 Jul 20 I think the upgrade to NAVSAFECOM is a big step in the right direction, their website doesn't ignore aviation safety. It all depends, of course, on how successful the CNO is on implementing the cultural change he says he wants. Freedom to make mistakes but learn from them, honesty in assessing unit performance, pass barriers to improvement up the chain of command without undue delay. I agree publication of accident reports, obviously without OPSEC sensitive content, would be a sign this is happening. Let's see if organizational failings get the blame for this one and not just the pilot.

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks. Found APPROACH again which earlier seemed to wander everywhere. Meanwhile SALVAGE begins perhaps:
US Navy: Team Sent to Recover Downed F-35 Fighter-Jet 24 Feb 2022
https://www.benarnews.org/english/ne...022093753.html
&
PICASSO diving support construction vessel Picasso DSV

[RAFEngO74to09]

UPDATED: Navy Recovers Crashed F-35C From Depths of South China Sea - USNI News

[SpazSinbad]

“A Navy F-35C on the deck of DSCV Picasso following a March 2, 2022 recovery from 12,400 feet under the South China Sea. US Navy Photo” https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upl...0824-0001.jpeg

[layman]

It might be just me, but I think that:
1) retrieving the ‘whole’ aircraft is impressive
2) doing it from 12,400 feet is impressive
3) completing the task so quickly is impressive

Then again, my total experience in the field of underwater salvage relates to retrieving golf balls ...