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UK F-35B Lost

Old 27th Nov 2021, 01:55
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Auxtank View Post
Yep. I'm going to put myself out there and say - cause; Mechanical Failure.

Just who's Mechanicals and bits, washers, oil seals, lock nuts, spinning bits and stuff - we'll probably never know.

But it's far too obvious that it was a bright red piece of foam with a "Remove Before Flight" flag hanging off it.
And I'm well acquainted with a certain Mister Murphy - who wrote his one and only Law.

$100M buys you an aircraft with a Checklist procedure you surely cannot screw up on.
I think you're going to feel rather silly when the releasable accident report comes out.

If it was mech failure (which it wasn't), why were all the F35s not grounded until the cause was known?

As for checklist procedures being screwed up, the cost of the system is irrelevant.
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Old 27th Nov 2021, 12:33
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Auxtank View Post
$100M buys you an aircraft with a Checklist procedure you surely cannot screw up on.
History has proven you otherwise. Nothing is too expensive for a co*k- up. And no: There is no procedure which cannot be screwed up.
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 06:42
  #163 (permalink)  
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A CM is the only likely outcome for this once the BOI has reported. Remember in monetary terms this is the same as causing the loss of a River Batch 2 and you can only imagine what would happen then.

Heads will roll without doubt
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 07:17
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Navaleye View Post
A CM is the only likely outcome for this once the BOI has reported. Remember in monetary terms this is the same as causing the loss of a River Batch 2 and you can only imagine what would happen then.

Heads will roll without doubt
Wouldn't be surprised if you're right, but surely cost shouldn't be a factor in the decision to CM? PPRuNe is full of examples where no action has been taken for more costly errors resulting in major loss of life.
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 08:41
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra View Post
History has proven you otherwise. Nothing is too expensive for a co*k- up. And no: There is no procedure which cannot be screwed up.
even losing a nuclear bomb off a towed transportation trolley ..
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 17:09
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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even losing a nuclear bomb off a towed transportation trolley
If you are talking about Bruggen then it wasn't lost. It fell of the trolley and got a little dent.
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 17:35
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morton View Post
If you are talking about Bruggen then it wasn't lost. It fell of the trolley and got a little dent.
Denting a Nuke isn't something everyone got on his CV, though...
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 19:17
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra View Post
Denting a Nuke isn't something everyone got on his CV, though...
Technically, wouldn't it have been the weapon casing that was dented?

Not quite a dramatic as "denting a nuke" though, I guess...
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 20:03
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morton View Post
even losing a nuclear bomb off a towed transportation trolley
If you are talking about Bruggen then it wasn't lost. It fell of the trolley and got a little dent.
Didn't happen on my watch. Spent yonks sitting in the back of a Puma going nowhere, just in case. Never lifted once, alhamdulillah.
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 20:04
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morton View Post
even losing a nuclear bomb off a towed transportation trolley
If you are talking about Bruggen then it wasn't lost. It fell of the trolley and got a little dent.
Didn't happen on my watch. Spent yonks sitting in the back of a Puma going nowhere, just in case. Never lifted once, alhamdulillah.
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 20:27
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Didn't happen on mine either: Met. was potentially heavily involved every time a special was moved, and even more so when one was moved in or out of theatre. Main worry was burn, not bang.
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 21:54
  #172 (permalink)  
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Various nuclear weapon incidents over the years have demonstrated how - even during the most tightly regulated engineering activities - failures by leadership to ensure standards are met and procedures followed actually create more holes in the Swiss cheese making it easier for the holes to align !

The 1984 incident at RAF Bruggen - when a WE177 nuclear weapon - in a transit container because it was being moved between a C-130K and the SSA - fell off a Type SA Trolley being towed by a Land Rover because it was not restrained - was a prime example of correct procedures not being followed - not just on the day in question but going back years.

BOI Narrative of Events here: https://webarchive.nationalarchives....tInGermany.htm

Again, at RAF Marham in 1988, multiple deviations from the requirements of SD814 - no Weapon Load Supervising Officer on site, Special Weapon Load Team not properly constituted, disoberdience to No Lone Zone procedures, failure to follow loading procedure, unauthorised button pressing - led to a drill WE177 being explosively jettisoned from a Tornado GR1 onto the floor of a HAS. [all procedures for live weapons were supposed to be applied to drill weapons].

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Old 28th Nov 2021, 22:16
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace View Post
Didn't happen on my watch. Spent yonks sitting in the back of a Puma going nowhere, just in case. Never lifted once, alhamdulillah.
I seem to recall that generating that airframe and crew was the highest peacetime priority on 230?

CG
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Old 28th Nov 2021, 23:01
  #174 (permalink)  

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Ninthace. "alhamdulillah". Must be fifty years since I last heard that phrase..
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 03:15
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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The 1984 incident at RAF Bruggen - when a WE177 nuclear weapon - in a transit container because it was being moved between a C-130K and the SSA - fell off a Type SA Trolley being towed by a Land Rover because it was not restrained - was a prime example of correct procedures not being followed - not just on the day in question but going back years.
Prime example of not supplying the proper kit in the required quantities to do the job even when requested in writing, believe me handling of them was taken seriously by all involved and a lot of short notice postings occurred. It was surprising how quickly it was sorted with very few knowing what had happened, we did on the Sqns, but bar that it was known by a few others involved with them day to day and no one else.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 15:49
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Back in the day, the squadron stores officer would have noticed the following!!
The pilot having been recovered from the drink, has lost the 2 aircrew watches he was wearing on each wrist.
Because of the cold weather/sea temperature, he was wearing 2 pair of flying gloves, and those had been ripped of during the ejection.
Also due to the cold weather/sea temperature the two flight suits he was wearing are now soaked in salt water and have shrunk. He had borrowed one from the stores officer.
It was also noticed that the aircraft had managed to get airborne with several squadron coloured tie-down chains attached to the main undercarriage legs.
It was also noted, that as the carrier "violently" manoeuvred to void the doomed aircraft and the pilot in the water, several other items of squadron stores went over the side from the flight deck. e.g. Intake blanks, chocks etc. (To be confirmed after audit).
Although the stores officer from one of the other squadrons on board had noticed a couple of items belonging to him attached to the aircraft as it went in, it was difficult to prove. However, in "consultation", it was also noticed that a couple of intake blanks belonging to the other squadron had also gone over the side during the violent avoidance manoeuvre.
The pilot always flew with a substantial "diversion kit", which unfortunately went down with the aircraft, the contents of which, the stores officer would confirm to the pilot's insurance company.
Need I go on!!


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Old 29th Nov 2021, 15:55
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Seems fair, on investigation a fair bit of my inventory turned out to have been on the Atlantic Conveyor and I wasn't even posted to the unit at the time of the sinking.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 16:29
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Footage of the incident has made its way online....
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 17:00
  #179 (permalink)  
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You can see the thrust is well down on normal even from the start of the take-off roll.
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Old 29th Nov 2021, 17:12
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAFEngO74to09 View Post
You can see the thrust is well down on normal even from the start of the take-off roll.
The video doesn't show the start of the take off roll though I agree it looks down on power but then normal take offs look slow to my eye. For context this is an F35B taking off from the Queen Elizabeth successfully (3min 14seconds in)

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